That has always been that person's methodology
Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?
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brightfame52
Active Member
Its necessary for the just/justifed to live by Faith, by persuasion Rom 1:17
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Its necessary because God said it shall happen ! So God causes it, He persuades Gen 9:27
God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
That word enlarge/ pāṯâ means :
- to be persuaded
Commentary on Gen 9:27
God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Genesis 9
www.scionofzion.com
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/genesis/9-27.htm Gill
civic
Active Member
gill was not inspired its just the opinion of a fallen man.
brightfame52
Active Member
The Drawing in both Jn 6:44;12:32 is also the effectual call,it is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul,
The word helkō denotes inward power,
- metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel, It is the creation of spiritual life inwardly
- It impels, activates!
The drawing is of the elect, those given to Jesus, not all mankind Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And the word draw comes from the word haireō that means to choose
- to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
- to choose by vote, elect to office
So that drawing teaches limited atonement to the chosen of God out of the world
brightfame52
Active Member
Just like you
Once again
How are you not positing universalism
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
brightfame52
Active Member
The Drawing in both Jn 6:44;12:32 is also the effectual call,it is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul,
The word helkō denotes inward power,
- metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel, It is the creation of spiritual life inwardly
- It impels, activates!
The drawing is of the elect, those given to Jesus, not all mankind Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And the word draw comes from the word haireō that means to choose
- to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
- to choose by vote, elect to office
So that drawing teaches limited atonement to the chosen of God out of the world
How are you not positing universalism
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
So you tout universalism?
brightfame52
Active Member
The Drawing in both Jn 6:44;12:32 is also the effectual call,it is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul,
The word helkō denotes inward power,
- metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel, It is the creation of spiritual life inwardly
- It impels, activates!
The drawing is of the elect, those given to Jesus, not all mankind Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And the word draw comes from the word haireō that means to choose
- to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
- to choose by vote, elect to office
So that drawing teaches limited atonement to the chosen of God out of the world
civic
Active Member
Jesus in John 12 contradicts your view of John 6.
brightfame52
Active Member
The inward power is the Spirit of God, the Grace of God
brightfame52
Active Member
The drawing in Jn 6:44 equates to being brought to seeing the Son[spiritually] and believing on Him as previously stated in Vs 37-40,44
44 ;No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Notice in Vs 44 the raising up at the last day reference as well
44 ;No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Notice in Vs 44 the raising up at the last day reference as well
Johann
Active Member
Why are you shunning the Pauline corpus?
John 6:44 and the Drawing of the Father: Not Irresistible, but Mediated
The Calvinist argument:
“The drawing in John 6:44 equates to being brought to seeing the Son spiritually and believing on Him as previously stated in vv. 37–40,44.”
Response from Paul’s Epistles:
Paul identifies the means by which God draws:
Romans 10:17: “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
2 Thess. 2:14: “Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Cor. 1:21: “It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”
Paul never attributes “drawing” to an inward, irresistible compulsion. Rather, the calling and drawing of God are mediated through the gospel proclamation, and hearing precedes faith and regeneration.
Drawing is not coercion but persuasion:
2 Cor. 5:11: “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…”
2 Cor. 5:20: “We beseech you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.”
Paul’s entire gospel ministry is one of active appeal, exhortation, and pleading, not the assumption that only the elect will believe because of a prior inward regeneration.
John 6:37 – “All that the Father gives me will come to me”
The Calvinist equates this with unconditional election. However:
Paul clarifies that divine giving is not arbitrary or selective:
Rom. 8:32: “He that spared not his own Son... how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?”
1 Tim. 2:4: “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
The gift of the Son is universal (cf. Rom. 5:18+), and the giving of persons to Christ is based on their response to the gospel, not a hidden decree.
The “giving” occurs in response to faith:
Gal. 3:22: “The scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”
Hence, “all that the Father gives me” are those who respond in faith, and believers are given into Christ's hand—not that people are given and then believe because they are regenerated.
John 6:40 – “Everyone who sees and believes”
This verse contradicts irresistible grace:
“Every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life...”
Paul confirms salvation is contingent upon belief, not effectual calling:
Rom. 1:16: “The gospel... is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.”
Eph. 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed...”
1 Cor. 15:2: “By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”
Believing is an act that precedes sealing (Eph. 1:13) and salvation (Rom. 10:9–10), not something that happens after regeneration. Faith is the human response to God's overture.
The Problem of Selectivity in Calvinist Interpretation
They cite John 6:37, 39, 44 but ignore:
John 12:32: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” → Universal drawing refutes exclusive election.
Romans 2:4: “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” → The leading is resistible, for many refuse it (cf. Rom. 2:5).
Acts 17:30: “God... now commandeth all men every where to repent.” → A command implies ability and responsibility, not inability and reprobation.
Paul’s Soteriology:
Paul consistently teaches that the gospel is offered universally (Tit. 2:11; 1 Tim. 4:10+).
He affirms that faith precedes regeneration, since believing results in being sealed (Eph. 1:13), justified (Rom. 5:1), and saved (Rom. 10:9–10).
He repeatedly affirms that God's drawing is resistible (Acts 26:28; 2 Cor. 6:1).
There is no Pauline support for the idea that only the elect are drawn, regenerated, and infallibly saved without human cooperation.
J.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats good, I like responses, doesnt mean they are right, but you have a right to respond.
Johann
Active Member
Note how one is drawn
John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.
One must receive revelation and lesarn from it
brightfame52
Active Member
I dont need to rebuttal your post, I stand firm with what I posted already, nothing you posted changed anything
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