Nothing about hearing and learning being the reason they are called and come. They must hear and learn to come.
Right again
Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?
- Thread starter civic
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Right again
Nope
John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Wrong again
John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
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Sorry, nothing about the reason they are drawn because they heard and learned from the Father. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn. Not why.
FAIL, AGAIN.
Nope it is why they come/are drawn by the fatherSorry, nothing about the reason they are drawn because they heard and learned from the Father. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn. Not why.
FAIL, AGAIN.
You assume a compelling supernatural force rather than the fact they have believed the father
John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Those that believe the Father come
Nope. Hearing and learning is how the are drawn. Not why they are drawn. See John 6:42-44
civic
Well-known member
try theseNope it is why they come/are drawn by the father
You assume a compelling supernatural force rather than the fact they have believed the father
John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Those that believe the Father come
Nope. It does not say that's why they are drawn. New glasses are in order
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
The way God did it in my case was revealing to me about talking to people about salvation. A little background:
Since my parents had a 'MIXED marriage" (as they used to call Protestant/Catholic unions back in the day, and in the '40s for a Catholic to go to a protestant church was a serious SIN, they settled the issue by being neither, but Mom read the Bible to me every night at ed time - taught me how to read in the kjv, in fact. the result was that by the age of 8,9 i was very familiar with the Scriptures and we didattend church sporadically and a preferred the Catholic church, since it was SHORTER, there was a lot to do and see, everybody had a costume and a funny hat on, and they rang a little bell twoard the end to let you know it was almost time to leave (whats a kid know?). since Mom listened to the "Hour of decision" every Friday night on the radio, I found that at the end of the show, Billy would give the invitation, and Beverly Shea would go into "Just as I Am", and I knew that I should do something, but never did - and then after a while the feeling would go away, but I did learn NOT to be around on Friday nights. I didn't know the feeling was the Holy Spirit loading on "Conviction of SIN". Fast forward to '63, and I was essentially at the end of my rope - failed out of School, didn't have a job, was terminally depressed, and at least passively suicidal.
I was in Houston with a married couple the same age as me, and we shared an apartment and one Tuesday I came home from shooting pool, and my roomie Pete was there and his face had the strangest look - almost glowed. So I asked him what was happening, and he told me: "I've been saved".
And I knew that it was true - there it was looking at me Joy, peace 1000 miles deep, confidence - everything I needed and didn't have - so I made fun of him, and went to bed. Pete and his wife went to church the next evening. When they got home, Pete told me that we had to talk.
Now, bearing in mind that I knew the Bible pretty well all the way through, and Pete had never even opened one in his life, which gave me a tremendous intellectual theological advantage over him if I has chosen to argue theology, I could have cut him to ribbons -.
But there was the Conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit all over me, and even though all Pete knew was what he remembered the fellow who'd led him into salvation had said the night before, Pete presented Jesus, and him crucified as a SIN offering. And I KNEW in the Spirit that ONLY under CONICTION OFSIN was salvation possible, I knew that it had been a LONG time since I'd felt God, and if anything was gonna happen IT HAD TO HAPPEN NOW, and I didn't know if I'd get another chance. Pete's lack of Biblical knowledge wasn't an issue - I HAD TO REPENT NOW and cry out for salvation. and I did, crying out for Him to SAVE ME!!!
And HE did, and everything changed.
It was the Holy Spirit that did the "Heavy lifting" and Conviction of SIN (God's WORD to me) provided the FAITH, and the job got done. I understood afterwards why Paul said the he resolved to know nothing but JESUS, and Him Crucified when evangelizing. So "I don't know enough", or "I'm not good at presenting,", or "what if I saw something wrong" etc. aren't issues at all.
When the Holy Spirit's there, with His Conviction of SIN, you could almost probably read the phone book and they'd get saved.
And WHEN the Person (like myself has become a Christian, THEN it's time to share "theology with 'em like Paul says he does when he's with Christians with some maturity. BEFORE you're saved, God's Kingdom is INVISIBLE. AFTER you're saved, then you have eyes that can see.
Nope it is why they come/are drawn by the father
You assume a compelling supernatural force rather than the fact they have believed the father
John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Those that believe the Father come
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Drawing in both Jn 6:44;12:32 is also the effectual call,it is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul,
The word helkō denotes inward power,
The word helkō denotes inward power,
- metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel, It is the creation of spiritual life inwardly
- It impels, activates!
The immediate context always determines the meaning for any word—no matter how many times a word carries such a meaning in another context.”328 Perhaps more embarrassingly for the Calvinists’ exegesis of John 6:44, the article on elkō in the abridged one-volume TDNT, which focuses more on biblical interpretation than general usage, was authored by the same Albrecht Oepke who authored the article in the ten-volume edition. Oepke noted that helkein in the Old Testament “denotes a powerful impulse . . . [that] expresses the force of love.” Oepke’s specific interpretation of John 6:44 deals a stunning blow to the Calvinist interpretation of that would-be proof text: This is the point in the two important passages in Jn. 6:44; 12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). David L. Allen;Steve W Lemke;; Steve W Lemke. Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique (Kindle Locations 2804-2840). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Drawing in both Jn 6:44;12:32 is also the effectual call,it is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul,
The word helkō denotes inward power,
- metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel, It is the creation of spiritual life inwardly
- It impels, activates!
Larry
Member
Some would see the Calvinist as holding to what is sometimes called “Theistic Fatalism.” Obviously, much different than pure “fate” type fatalism, this view would acknowledge God as the cause of all things, which is certainly true, but would then lead to a false conclusion of inactivity. And this really is ultimately what separates a Theological Calvinist from a Theistic Fatalist: the conclusion we draw based on God’s sovereignty and ordination. Fatalism leads to inactivity, while Calvinism leads to the opposite…Leighton Flowers
Note how the following well-respected lexicons address “draw” in John 6:44 to be interpreted metaphorically or figuratively rather than literally: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., by Bauer and Danker: “to draw a pers. in the direction of values for inner life, draw, attract, an extended fg. [figurative] mng. [meaning] . . . J[ohn] 6:44 . . . J[ohn] 12:32.”330 The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament by Mounce: “met. [metaphorically] to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32.”331 Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament by Hickie: “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. 12:32. Cf. Joh. 6:44.”332 Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament by Friberg, Friberg, and Miller: “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44).”333 Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament by Robinson: “to draw, by a moral influence, John 6:44. 12:32.”334 The New Analytical Greek Lexicon by Perschbacher: “met. to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32.”335 Note that these respected lexicons all take “draw” in John 6:44 to be a figurative or metaphorical usage when applied to spiritual issues within persons.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@civic
Yes, thats why God draws the elect to Christ Jn 6:44;12:32 included in that drawing is persuasion, causing Faith Jn 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Our english word draw means:
to persuade to speak:
The persuasion is needful to cause to live a life of Faith
Yes, thats why God draws the elect to Christ Jn 6:44;12:32 included in that drawing is persuasion, causing Faith Jn 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Our english word draw means:
to persuade to speak:
The persuasion is needful to cause to live a life of Faith
civic
Well-known member
nice dodge of all the passages that contradict your doctrines of man.
deal with the scriptures I gace instead of avoiding them and running away from them- your diversion is duly noted.
this is the same thing the unitarians do with passaged that declare the deity of Christ - they run from them
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Drawing in both Jn 6:44;12:32 is also the effectual call,it is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul,
The word helkō denotes inward power,
- metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel, It is the creation of spiritual life inwardly
- It impels, activates!
John 12:32–33 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 (Now he said this to indicate by what sort of death he was going to die.)
how long have you favored universalism?
