civic
Well-known member
answered already
whats your point I doubt there is one only another question to follow.
try reading what I said.
is a MIRACLE supernatural ?
Is Calvinism Gnosticism?
- Thread starter Richard
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whats your point I doubt there is one only another question to follow.
try reading what I said.
is a MIRACLE supernatural ?
If you have faith you have already converted. So no, according to you conversion is not supernatural.answered already
whats your point I doubt there is one only another question to follow.
try reading what I said.
is a MIRACLE supernatural ?
Yes, is conversion a miracle?
civic
Well-known member
fallacy alert the new birth is a miracle just like the miracle of the life of a new baby is a miracle- life is a miracle in both the physical and spiritual realm. you are conflating faith and a miracle-
Try listening to Jesus sometime- your FAITH has saved you, your FAITH led to ( caused ) the MIRACLE of your healing.
next
hope this helps !!!
According to you faith comes first. Your converted when you come to faith. So the slope is getting pretty slippery. Conversion is not a supernatural event according to you.
civic
Well-known member
not according to me according to Jesus and the Apostles faith precedes life, new birth, miracles etc....
the order never changes it remains the same.
Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you has saved you, healed you.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
7- conversion
8- repentance
9- justification
10- sanctification
11- glorification
hope this helps !!!
So your converted before the supernatural occurs. Gotch ya
Nothing before number 6 is supernatural. So you believe conversion is not supernatural.
civic
Well-known member
see post 65 I have scripture you have opinion and man made doctrine.
sola scriptura
next
Is conversion a supernatural miracle?
civic
Well-known member
already answered
Already dodged you mean.
civic
Well-known member
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Watch out @civic. If you say "yes", then salvation by free will choice is disproved. If you say, "no", then you are claiming God-like ability. My advice to you is to dodge the question, hold up a coin and ask whose picture is on it.
He is never going to answer as you can see.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Just more "Word Games". Calvinism is nothing but "another Ism" that Christians complicate their lives with. Theology is like noses. Everybody's got one.
Taylor
Member
I always love your answers Bob shortened to the point.
I love word games also. Such as:
Atheists do not have a common belief system, Or theology.
Many fire victims lose their noses and are in need of reconstructive surgery.
But the bottom line is many Christians love to debate about who has the "right" theology
civic
Well-known member
Exactly brother filled to the brim with them .
As I said, your never going to answer. To bad.
