Is Calvinism Gnosticism?

[Johann]

All Catholics say that. Another thing in common with the RC.

Do you agree with the early church on baptismal regeneration?

No-DOES REGENERATION PRECEDE FAITH?

Some Calvinists will argue that the order of regeneration and faith is a logical order not a temporal one, meaning that the two happen simultaneously within time. They teach that at the moment a person is born again he will come to faith. The moment he is regenerated he also places his trust in Christ. It all happens in an instant of time. Yet logically as we think about this transaction, we must put a causal order to it. Does the Bible indicate that a person must be regenerated so that he can believe or does the Bible teach that a person must believe in order to be regenerated? Do we need life in order to believe or do we need to believe in order to have life? That logical order is what is in dispute.

What is not in dispute is that regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner (John 1:12-13; Titus 3:5). Man’s first birth is natural; his second birth is spiritual and supernatural. His first birth makes him a member of a fallen race; his second birth makes him a member of a redeemed race. His first birth gives him a depraved nature (Eph. 2:3); his second birth makes him partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). The moment a person is born again he receives a new life (John 6:47; 1 John 5:12) and a new position as a child of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2). In short, he is a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).[6] We can all affirm these truths.

But what does the Scripture actually say about the logical order of new life and man’s responsibility in attaining it? Which comes first, new life or faith? Let’s observe:

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).

John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”

John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”

John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”

John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.

Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.

John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).

Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.

John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”

Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”

Galatians 3:2, 5

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”

2 Corinthians 3:14-16

“But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…anyone turns to the Lord…” (by faith)
“…the veil is taken away.”

1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”

--and many more excamples--

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

Many Calvinists teach that regeneration precedes faith. They say that a person must be born again before he believes. They argue that new life comes before faith. John Piper, a Calvinistic p…

soteriology101.com

 

[TomL]

So. We can play the guilt by by association game as well. Your a synergist, the RC is synergistic so your have more in common with the RC and therefore Augustine than we do.

You did

Calvinist always do with tags like Pelagian and semi pelagian

But

The gnostics were determinist and Calvinist are determinist

Gnostic taught total inabilty Calvinists do as well

Gnostic taught God determines men eternal destinies so does Calvinism

 

[Johann]

You did

Calvinist always do with tags like Pelagian and semi pelagian

But

The gnostics were determinist and Calvinist are determinist

Gnostic taught total inabilty Calvinists do as well

Gnostic taught God determines men eternal destinies so does Calvinism

Which is error-as you peruse my posts today-since I am not going over and over this again.
J.

 

[TomL]

Which is error-as you peruse my posts today-since I am not going over and over this again.
J.

????????

 

[Presby02]

You did

Calvinist always do with tags like Pelagian and semi pelagian

But

The gnostics were determinist and Calvinist are determinist

Gnostic taught total inabilty Calvinists do as well

Gnostic taught God determines men eternal destinies so does Calvinism

And you don't use tags? Like Manicheanism, Augustianism and so on? It's okay for you to poison the well but we're prohibited?

Pelagius taught man has the inherent ability to believe, so does Provisionism. Is it fair to call you a Pelagian?

 

[Johann]

????????

My apologies @TomL-tired and prone to make mistakes.

 

[TomL]

My apologies @TomL-tired and prone to make mistakes.

No problem. I have been there

 

[TomL]

And you don't use tags? Like Manicheanism, Augustianism and so on? It's okay for you to poison the well but we're prohibited?

Pelagius taught man has the inherent ability to believe, so does Provisionism. Is it fair to call you a Pelagian?

You guys originate it.

Fact is however the entire church held that man was able to believe untill Augustine who with his gnostic background brought in the idea god unconditionally determines human destinies

Prior to the writings of Saint Augustine, the Church universally held that mankind had a totally free will. Each man was responsible before God to accept the Gospel. His ultimate destiny, while fully dependent on God's grace and power, was also dependent on his free choice to submit to or reject

God's grace and power. In the three centuries from the Apostles to Augustine the early Church held to NONE of the five points of Calvinism, not one. The writings of the orthodox Church, for the first three centuries. before are in stark contrast to the ideas of Augustine and Calvin. Man is fully responsible reject the Gospel. This was considered to be the Apostolic doctrine

passed down through the local church elders ordained by the Apostles, and their successors. Below I have listed a few representative quotes from the earlier writers in order to give the flavor of the earliest tradition regarding election and free will. Some deal with the subject of perseverance and apostasy.

Please Read closely the words of the earliest Church fathers.

Note: Click on each name for more info about these early church fathers... Then click on the referenced epistle to read it in detail on a great third party website about the early Christian Writings.

Clement of Rome (AD30-100)​

"On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out ofSodom when all the country round was punished by means offire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does notforsake those that hope in Him but gives up such as departfrom Him to punishment and torture. For Lot's wife, who wentforth with him, being of a different mindfrom himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar ofsalt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves? and become a sign to all succeeding generations. "

(Clement, Epistle to the Corinthians, XI) And this Youtube Audio presentation

Ignatius (AD30-107)​

"Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life_upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let usfleefrom death, and make choice of_life. For I remark, that two different characters arefound among men — the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, isfalse coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their

Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to diefor the truth into His passion, His life is not in us. " (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V) and This video/audio presentation.

Barnabas (AD100)​

"The Lord willjudge the world without respect ofpersons. Each will receive as he has done: if he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him; if he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we shouldfall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when ye reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we befound [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, "Many are called, butfew are chosen. " (Epistle Of Barnabas, IV)

Justin Martyr (AD 110-165)​

"But lest some sunnose- from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever

$ foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned​

from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it befated that this man, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And ggain, unless the human race have the power ofavoiding evil and choosing_good by free choice, they.

are not accountable for their actions,J whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by_opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy_Qfreward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were createdfor this end; nor,_ifhe were evil, would he be worthy_of_punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made. " (Justin, First Apology, XLIII)

"For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by. fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins • and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all thingstg&eplace according to the necessity_Qffate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they willjustly_suffer in eternalfre_mepunishment of whatever sins they have committed. and this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both (virtue and vice). And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitious in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to p*** byfate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering,.

and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only_ofthings that are destructable, and to have looked on God Himsel,fas emerging and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice or virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense. " (Justin Second

Apology, VII)​

ginning the serpent, so that he exist not, rather than have said, 'And I will put​

enmity between him and the woman, and between his seed and her seed?' Could He not have at once created a multitude of men? But yet, since He knew that it would be good, He created both angels and men free to do that which is righteous, and He appointed period$_oftime during which He knew it would be goodfor them to have the exercise offree-will; and because He likewise knew it would be good, He made general and particularjudgments; each one'sfreedom of will,

" (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 102)

"I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness;_possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing. formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should bejudged_by do anything reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted ofhaving acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But_ifthe word of Godforetells that some angels and men shall be certainly_punished, it did so because itforeknew that they would be unchangeably.[wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that all who wish for it can obtain mercy. from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed,saying, 'Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;' that is, havingupented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them. " (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 141)

"Here, then, is a proof_ofvirtue, and of a mind loving_prudence, to recur to the communion of the unity, and to attach one's salvation, and make choice of the better things according to thefree-will placed in man; and not to think that those who are possessed of human passions are lords of_all, when they shall not appear to have even equalpower with men. " (Justin, On the Sole Government of God, VI)

continued​

​

 

[TomL]

continued​

​

Irenaeus (AD120-202)​

"This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not, " set forth the ancient law ofhuman liberty, because God made man a free[agent]from the beginning,_possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia)_ofGod voluntarily, and not by.

compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings)_, so that those who had yielded obedience mightjustly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be notfound in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur thejustjudgment of

God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyselfwrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteousjudgment of God." "But glory and honor," he says, "to every one that doeth good. "GOd therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory_and honor, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive thejustjudgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

"But ifsome had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving ofpraisefor being good, for such were they created; nor would theformer be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to holdfast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast itfrom them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control

God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice ofgood in general, and of​

persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to actjustly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might becomeforgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets. ... No one is unwilling_tQfollow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [tQ_ceject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey_GQd, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. ... But because man is possessed offree willfrom the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

"And not merely in works, but also infaith, has God preserved the will of manfree and under his own control, saying, "According to thyfaith be it unto thee; " thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, "All things are possible to him that believeth;" and, "Go thy way; and as thou hast believed so be it done unto thee."Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. Andfor this reason, "he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him." In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his ownfree will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, "How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gatherethl her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.

(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. IV, 37)

The above passage is immediately followed by Irenaeus' refutation of the Gnostic cults who "maintain the opposite to these conclusions. "

"Has the Word comefor the ruin andfor the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in thejudgment-day than that ofSodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will ofHis Father in heaven. If then the advent of the Son comes indeed alike to all, but isfor the purpose_of.judging, and separating the believing from the unbelieving, since, as those who believe do His will agreeably to their own choice, and to their own choice, the disobedient do not consent to His doctrine; it is manifest that His Father has made all in a like condition,æacmperson having a choice of his own, and a free understanding; and that He has regard to all things, and exercises a providence over all, "making. His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sending rain upon thejust and unjust. "

"And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, departfrom God, He inflicts that separationfrom Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separationfrom God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy theseforementioned things, being infact destitute of all good, do experience every kind ofpunishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishmentfalls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matterjust as occurs in the case of aflood of light: those who have blinded themselves or have been blinded by others arefor ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penaltyJblindnessØut it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity_upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, "He that believeth in Me is not condemned " that is, is not separatedfrom God, for he is united to God throughfaith. On the other hand, He says, "He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the onlyzbegotten Son of God; " that is, he separated himselffrom God of his own accord. "For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to roved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made

manifest, that he has wrought them in God. " (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. V, XXVII)

Tatian (AD110-172)

"Why are youfated to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our ownfault. Ourfree-will has destroyed_u$,• we who werefree have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we Ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it. "

(Tatian, Address to the Greeks, XI)

continued

 

[TomL]

Irenaeus (AD120-202)​

"This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not, " set forth the ancient law ofhuman liberty, because God made man a free[agent]from the beginning,_possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia)_ofGod voluntarily, and not by.

compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings)_, so that those who had yielded obedience mightjustly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be notfound in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur thejustjudgment of

God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyselfwrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteousjudgment of God." "But glory and honor," he says, "to every one that doeth good. "GOd therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory_and honor, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive thejustjudgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

"But ifsome had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving ofpraisefor being good, for such were they created; nor would theformer be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to holdfast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast itfrom them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control

God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice ofgood in general, and of​

persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to actjustly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might becomeforgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets. ... No one is unwilling_tQfollow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [tQ_ceject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey_GQd, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. ... But because man is possessed offree willfrom the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

"And not merely in works, but also infaith, has God preserved the will of manfree and under his own control, saying, "According to thyfaith be it unto thee; " thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, "All things are possible to him that believeth;" and, "Go thy way; and as thou hast believed so be it done unto thee."Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. Andfor this reason, "he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him." In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his ownfree will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, "How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gatherethl her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.

(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. IV, 37)

The above passage is immediately followed by Irenaeus' refutation of the Gnostic cults who "maintain the opposite to these conclusions. "

"Has the Word comefor the ruin andfor the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in thejudgment-day than that ofSodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will ofHis Father in heaven. If then the advent of the Son comes indeed alike to all, but isfor the purpose_of.judging, and separating the believing from the unbelieving, since, as those who believe do His will agreeably to their own choice, and to their own choice, the disobedient do not consent to His doctrine; it is manifest that His Father has made all in a like condition,æacmperson having a choice of his own, and a free understanding; and that He has regard to all things, and exercises a providence over all, "making. His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sending rain upon thejust and unjust. "

"And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, departfrom God, He inflicts that separationfrom Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separationfrom God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy theseforementioned things, being infact destitute of all good, do experience every kind ofpunishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishmentfalls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matterjust as occurs in the case of aflood of light: those who have blinded themselves or have been blinded by others arefor ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penaltyJblindnessØut it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity_upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, "He that believeth in Me is not condemned " that is, is not separatedfrom God, for he is united to God throughfaith. On the other hand, He says, "He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the onlyzbegotten Son of God; " that is, he separated himselffrom God of his own accord. "For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to roved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made

manifest, that he has wrought them in God. " (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. V, XXVII)

Tatian (AD110-172)

"Why are youfated to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our ownfault. Ourfree-will has destroyed_u$,• we who werefree have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we Ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it. "

(Tatian, Address to the Greeks, XI)

continued

Tertullian (AD145-220)​

"Moreover, man thus constituted will be protected by both the goodness of God and by His purpose, both ofwhich are always found in concert in our God. For His purpose is no purpose without goodness; nor is His goodness without a purpose exceptforsooth in the case ofMarcion's God, who is purposelessly good, as we have shown. Well, then, it was proper that God should be known; it was no doubt a good and reasonable thing. Proper also was it that there should be something worthy_ofknowing God. What could befound so worthy as the image and likeness of God? This also was undoubtedly_good and reasonable. Therefore it was proper that (he who is) the image and likeness of God should be formed with afree will and a masteryJhimself; so that this of will and self-command — might be reckoned as the image and likeness of God in him. For this purpose such an essence was adapted to man as suited this character, even the afflatus of the Deity, Himselffree and uncontrolled. But ifyou will take some other view of the case, how came it to pass that man, when in possession of the whole world, did not above all things reign in selfpossession — a master over others, a slave to himself? The goodness of God, then, you can learnfrom His gracious gift to man, and His purposefrom His disposal of all things. At present, let God's goodness alone occupy our attention, that which gave so large. gift to man, even the liberty_ofhis will. God's purpose claims some other opportunity of treatment, offering as it does instruction of like import. Now, God alone is good by nature. For He, who has that which is without beginning, has it not by creation, but by nature. Man, however, who exists entirely by creation, having a beginning, along with that beginning obtained theform in which he exists; and thus he is not by nature disposed to good, but by creation, not having it as his own attribute to be good, because, (as we have said,) it is not by nature, but by creation, that he is disposed to good, according to the appointment of his good Creator, even the Author of all good. In order, therefore, that man might have a goodness of his own, bestowed on him by God, and there might be henceforth in man a property, and in a certain sense a natural attribute ofgoodness, there was assigned to him in the constitution of his nature, as aformal witness of the goodness which God bestowed upon him, freedom and power of the will, such as should cause good to be performed spontaneously by man, as a property ofhis own, on the ground that no less than this would be required in the matter of a goodness which was to be voluntarily exercised by him that is to say, by the liberty.

of his will without eitherfavor or servility to the constitution of his nature, so that man should be goodjust up to this point, if he should display his goodness in accordance with his natural constitution indeed, but still as the result ofhis will, as a property of his nature; and, by a similar exercise of volition, should show himself to be too strong in defense against evil also (for even this God, of course, foresaw), being free, and master of himself; because, if he were wanting in this prerogative ofself-mastery, so as to perform even good by necessity and not will, he would, in the helplessness of his servitude, become subject to the usurpation of evil, a slave as much to evil as to good. Entirefreedom of will, therefore, was conferred upon him in both tendencies; so that, as master ofhimself, he might constantly encounter good by spontaneous observance of it, and evil by its spontaneous avoidance; because, were man even otherwise circumstanced, it was yet his bounden dutu, in the judgment of God, to do justice according to the motions ofhis will regarded,J course, od nor of evil could be paid to the man who should befound to have been either good

or evil through necessity and not choice. In this really lay the law which did not exclude, but rather prove, human liberty.

by a spontaneous rendering of obedience, or a spontaneous commission of iniquity; so patent was the liberty_ofman's willfor either issue. Since, therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man offreedom in his will it is not right, after ignoring the original definition ofgoodness and purpose which it was necessary to determine previous to any discussion of the subject, on subsequentfacts to presume to say that God ought not in such a way to haveformed man, because the issue was other than what was assumed to be properfor God. We ought rather, after duly considering that it behooved God so to create man, to leave this consideration unimpaired, and to survey the other aspects of the case. It_i$, no doubt, an easy_processfæpersons who take offence at thefall of man,More they_have looked into thefacts of his creation, to impute the blame of what happened to the Creator, without any examination of Hispurpose. To conclude: the goodness of God, then fully consideredfrom the beginning ofHis works, will be enough to convince us that nothing evil could possibly have come forthfrom God; and the liberty of man will, after a second thought, show us that it alone is chargeable with the fault which itself committed. " (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Bk. Il, ch. vi) "God put the question [to Adam - "where art thou"l with an appearance ofuncertainty, in order that even here He might prove man to be the subject ofafree will in the alternative ofeither a denial or a confession, and give to him the opportunity offreely acknowledging his transgression, and, sofar, of lightening it. In like manner He inquires of Cain where his brother was, just as ifHe had not yet heard the blood of Abel crying from the ground, in order that he too might have the opportunityfrom the same power of the will of spontaneously denying, and to this degree aggravating, his crime; and that thus there might be supplied to us examples of confessing sins rather than of denying them: so that even then was initiated the evangelic doctrine, "By thy words thou shall bejustified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.' (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Bk. Il, xxv)

"That rich man did go his way who had not "received" the precept of dividing his substance to the needy, and was abandoned by the Lord to his own opinion. Nor will "harshness" be on this account imputed to Christ, the Found of the vicious action of each individualfree-will. "Behold," saith He, "I have set before thee good and evil. " Choose that which is good: if you cannot, because you will not —for that you can ifyou will He has shown, because He has proposed each to yourfree-will — you ought to departfrom Him whose will you do not. " (Tertullian, On Monogamy, XIV)

continued

 

[TomL]

continued

Clement of Alexandria (AD153-217)


"God, then, is good. And the Lord speaks many a time and oft before He proceeds to act. ... For the Divine Being is not angry in the way that some think; but often restrains, and always exhorts humanity, and shows what ought to be done. And this is a good device, to terrify lest we sin. "For thefear of the Lord drives away sins, and he that is withoutfear cannot bejustified, " says the Scripture. And God does not inflict punishmentfrom wrath, butfor the ends ofjustice; since it is not expedient thatjustice should be neglected on our account. Each one ofus, who sins, with his own free-will chooses punishment and the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame. "But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous, who taketh vengeance? Godforbid." ... It is clear, then, that those who are not at enmity with the truth, and do not hate the Word, will not hate their own salvation, but will escape the punishment ofenmity. "The crown ofwisdom," then as the book of Wisdom says, "is thefear of the Lord. " Very clearly, therefore, by the prophet Amos has the Lord unfolded His method of dealing, saying, "I have overthrown you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah; and ye shall be as a brand pluckedfrom thefire: and yetye have not returned unto me saith the LORD." See how God, through His love of_goodness, seeks repentance; and by means of the plan He pursues of threatening silently, shows His own lovefor man. "I will avert," He says, "Myfacefrom them, and show what shall happen to them. " For where theface of the Lord looks, there is peace and rejoicing; but where it is averted, there is the introduction of evil. The Lord, accordingly, does not wish to look on evil things; for He is good.

But on His looking away, evil arises spontaneously through human unbelief. "Behold, therefore," says Paul, "the nn thatfell severity; but upon thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness, " that

is, in faith in Christ. " (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, Bk. I, viii)

Origen (AD185-254)​

"This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the Church, that every rational soul is possessed offree-will and volition; that it has a stuggle to maintain with the devil and his angels, and opposing influences, because they strive to burden it with sins; but if we live rightly and wisely, we should endeavor to shake ourselvesfree of a burden of that kind. From which itfollows, also, that we understand ourselves not to be subject to necessity, so as to be compelled by all means, even against our will to do either good or evil. For if we are our own masters, some influences perhaps may impel us to sin, and others help us to salvation; we are notforced, necessity either to act rightly or wrongly, which those persons think is the case who say that the courses and movements of the stars are the cause of human actions, not Q.nly_ofthose which take place beyond the influence of_thefreedom of the will, but also of those which are placed within our own power. " (Origen, De Principis, Preface)

"Andfor this reason we think that God, the Father of all things, in order to ensure the salvation of all His creatures through the ineffable plan ofHis word and wisdom, so arranged each of these, that every_spicit, whether soul or rational existence, however called, should not be compelled byforce,against the liberty_ofhis own will, to any other course than that to which the motives of his own mind led him (lest by so doing_thepower of exercising free-will should seem to be taken away, which certainly would produce a change in the nature of the and that the these would be suitably and usefully_adqpted to the harmony_ofone world,bJ some of them requiring_help, and others being able to give it, and others again being the cause of_$tcuggle and contest to those who are making_pcogress, amongst whom their diligence would be deemed more worthy_of_approval, and the place_ofrank obtained after victory. be held with greater certainty, which should be established by the difficulties of the contest. " (Origen, Bk. Il ch. I)





Hippolytus (AD170-236)

"But man, from the fact of_hispossessing a capacitygf_self-determination bringsforth what is evil, that is, accidentally; which evil is not consummated except you actually commit some piece ofwickedness. For it is in regard of our desiring anything that is wicked, or our meditating upon it, that what is evil is so denominated. Evil had no existencefrom the beginning, but came into being subsequently. Since man hasfree will a law has been definedfor his guidance by the Deity, not without answering a good purpose. Eoc_ifman did not possess the power to will and not to should a law be established? For a law will not be laid downfor an animal devoid of reason, but a bridle and a whip; whereas to man has been given a precept and penalty to perform, orfor not carrying into execution what has been enjoined. For man thus constituted has a law been enacted byjust men in primitive ages. " (Hippolytus, Against all Heresies, Bk. X, ch. xxix)



Novatian (AD210-280)

"And lest, again, an unboundedfreedom shouldfall into peril, He laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in thefruit of the tree; but he wasforewarned that evil would arise ifperchance he should exercise his free will in the contempt of the law that was given. For, on the one hand, it had behooved him to befree, lest the image of God should,unfittingly be in bondage; and on the other, the law was to be added, so that an unbridled liberty might not breakforth even to a contempt of the Giver. So that he might receive as a consequence both worthy rewards and a own power that which he might choose to do, by the tendency of his mind in either



direction: whence, therefore, by envy, mortality comes back upon him; seeing that, although he might escape it by obedience, he rushes into it by hurrying to be God under the influence ofperverse counsel. " (Novatian, Trinity, ch. I)



Archelaus (AD277)



"This account also indicates that rational creatures have been entrusted with free-will in virtue of which they also admit of conversions. " ... "For all the creatures that God made, He made very good; and He gave to every individual the sense offree-will, in accordance with which standard He also instituted the law ofjudgment. To sin is ours, and that we sin not is God's gift, as our will is constituted to choose either to sin or not to sin. ... The judges said: He has given demonstration enough of the origin of the devil. And as both sides admit that there will be a judgment, it is necessarily involved in that admission that every individual is shown to havefree-will; and since this is brought clearly out, there can be no doubt that every individual, in the exercise of his own proper_power of will, may_$hape his course in whatever direction he pleases. "



(Archelaus, The Acts of the Disputation)



Alexander of Alexandria (AD273-326)



"I will endeavor,umyour assistance andfavor, to examine carefully_theposition of those who are offended, and deny that we speak the truth, when we say that man is possessed offree-will, and prove that "They_perish self-destroyed,Wy their ownfault, " choosing_thepleasant in preference to the expedient. " (Alexander, Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse Vlll, ch. xii)



Lactantius (AD260-330)

"When, therefore, the number of men had begun to increase, God in Hisforethought, lest the devil, to whom from the beginning He had given power over the earth, should by his subtilty either corrupt or destroy men, as he had done at first, sent angelsfor the protection and improvement of the human race; and inasmuch as He had given these a free will He enjoined them above all things not to defile themselves with contaminationfrom the earth, and thus lose the dignity of their heavenly nature. " (Lactantius, Divine Institutes, Bk. Il, ch. xv)



There seems to have been no exceptions among early Christian writers in regards to the orthodox teaching that man has been endowed by God a free will to choose his destiny, and that salvation is available to all who believe. The opposing view, that man is controlled by fate, could only be found in the Greek philosophical schools, Gnosticism, and Eastern mysticism during the first 300 years of Christianity. It is no wonder that St. Augustine, the man who introduced Greek fatalism into



Christianity should come from a Gnostic and Neo-Platonic background.



Augustine's theory differed from the Greek philosophers mainly by naming the CAUSE of fate — God's mysterious will which must not be questioned, and cannot be understood by mortals. The impact of Augustine's teaching probably would not have been nearly so great if Pelagius had not gone to the opposite extreme in renouncing Augustine.



While Reformers were right to reject the Latin heresies of Rome, but they failed recognize the Greek



Latin era, which are equally contrary to the truth of the Christian



Faith "once for all delivered to the saints" by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. They seem to hold a higher opinion of philosophers, like Augustine, and Calvin than of the Apostles themselves, and those to whom the Apostles entrusted the Apostolic tradition.

 

[Maurice]

Free book

The Gnostic Origins of Calvinism

This book traces the history of Calvinistic thought and its infiltration into the church through the centuries. We start with the Valentinian Gnostics of the first and second centuries and catalog the reaction of the ancient church fathers. We then jump to the Gnostic Manicheans with Augustine and Pelagius in the fifth century AD. Finally, we arrive at Calvin and Knox, who formed modern Calvinism with its acceptance into protestant thought in the fifteenth century, and the reaction to Calvinism by Jacob Arminius.

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[TomL]

Free book

The Gnostic Origins of Calvinism

This book traces the history of Calvinistic thought and its infiltration into the church through the centuries. We start with the Valentinian Gnostics of the first and second centuries and catalog the reaction of the ancient church fathers. We then jump to the Gnostic Manicheans with Augustine and Pelagius in the fifth century AD. Finally, we arrive at Calvin and Knox, who formed modern Calvinism with its acceptance into protestant thought in the fifteenth century, and the reaction to Calvinism by Jacob Arminius.

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Kindle book and/or paperback

The foundation of Augustinian Calvinism

By Dr Ken Wilson

https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Augustinian-Calvinism-Ken-Wilson/dp/108280035X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3H8H8XVZLWKJI&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VCz2Wl7MP11c8kYiLMltwfkJuqALTomOzJisuGuG0TRSoCkuznuGzct-hZ4Z5xTdf0lz86c4CTSa1DfcdAdsXdCtoB6oD_Bg6K-GRhzBWrI.fcRXzODp_w5IaLL3AQE9KML17R4d713spXIA4tUGz1E&dib_tag=se&keywords=foundation+of+augustinian+calvinism&qid=1711529720&sprefix=foindation+of+augustinian%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-1

"Wilson's book is ground-breaking and thought-provoking, and indispensable for every serious student of hugely influential core aspects of Augustine's thought." -- Professor Karla Pollman, University of Bristol on Dr. Ken Wilson's "Augustine's Conversion". This book summarizes Dr. Wilson's "ground-breaking" doctoral thesis at the University of Oxford which was published by Mohr Siebeck in 2018 as "Augustine's Conversion from Traditional Free Choice to 'Non-free Free Will': A Comprehensive Methodology". With a new audience in mind, Dr. Wilson presents his extensive research on free will in ancient and early Christian thought in a shorter and more accessible format with translations of the ancient and modern foreign languages in plain English. Dr. Wilson first provides readers with essential background information on free will in the ancient philosophies and religions of Stoicism, Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, and Manichaeism. He then guides his readers through the writings of the earliest Christian authors who wrote on free will. Finally, Dr. Wilson explores a curious split between St. Augustine's early and later writings and shows how the ideas presented in Augustine's later writings became the foundation for modern Calvinist (Reformed) theology, also known as Augustinian-Calvinism.

 

[Presby02]

And you don't use tags? Like Manicheanism, Augustianism and so on? It's okay for you to poison the well but we're prohibited?

Pelagius taught man has the inherent ability to believe, so does Provisionism. Is it fair to call you a Pelagian?

Bump for tom

Here is another. Pelagius believed the Holy Spirit was not necessary for conversions. Conversion was not supernatural. Which means Peovisionist believe intellectual ascent saves.

 

[TomL]

Bump for tom

Here is another. Pelagius believed the Holy Spirit was not necessary for conversions. Conversion was not supernatural. Which means Peovisionist believe intellectual ascent saves.

No, provisions do not believe intellectual assent saves.

That is falsehood which no provisionist holds to.

Faith is more than intellectual agreement.

 

[Presby02]

No, provisions do not believe intellectual assent saves.

That is falsehood which no provisionist holds to.

Faith is more than intellectual agreement.

Sure ya do. Your hero himself said the Spirit is not necessary for conversion. Do you believe these set of facts If you do here is the Spirit and a new heart. Then the supernatural comes into play.

 

[civic]

Sure ya do. Your hero himself said the Spirit is not necessary for conversion. Do you believe these set of facts If you do here is the Spirit and a new heart. Then the supernatural comes into play.

quote the person you are referring to I'll bet it was never said. Unlike you I quote calvin and calvinist theologians to back up my point and use them as hostile witnesses against calvinists online all of the time. Like I did with you yesterday with Lorraine Boettner- remove 1 pedal of tulip and it all collapses. Prove 1 wrong and they will all be wrong. The entire doctrines of grace stand or fall on each point.

 

[Presby02]

quote the person you are referring to I'll bet it was never said. Unlike you I quote calvin and calvinist theologians to back up my point and use them as hostile witnesses against calvinists online all of the time. Like I did with you yesterday with Lorraine Boettner- remove 1 pedal of tulip and it all collapses. Prove 1 wrong and they will all be wrong. The entire doctrines of grace stand or fall on each point.

So you agree then conversion is a supernatural event??

 

[civic]

So you agree then conversion is a supernatural event??

which follows faith not precedes faith. the new birth is a miracle.

next

 

[Presby02]

which follows faith not precedes faith. the new birth is a miracle.

next

Right, I know your position. Is conversion a supernatural event?