sethproton
Active member
I was not asking for her. I was asking for me.
Can you tell me one thing she said that you think/feel/know is anti-scriptural. I am not asking you to repeat your explanation, just the topic/idea she stated. Thanks.
Is anyone else a Seer?
- Thread starter charismaticlady
- Start date
Can you tell me one thing she said that you think/feel/know is anti-scriptural. I am not asking you to repeat your explanation, just the topic/idea she stated. Thanks.
charismaticlady
Active member
It has to do with the Spirit's direction - to or from.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
That is the prayer and praise language for us personally to pray or praise perfectly to God by the Spirit. Seeing as God knows all languages He needs no interpreter. This gift is given to all who believe and are born again of the Spirit. You see in Mark 16:16-18 the signs that will be given to us for our personal use. No gift of interpretation is given to be able to pray and praise perfectly.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” No sign of interpretation.
1 Corinthian 12 shows the higher gifts Paul speaks of in chapter 14 for the profit of all to be used when we come together as a congregation. Notice there is a similar gift that is not given to all who believe. "to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."
This gift of tongues to be used in church is prophetic and from God. Verse 6 tells us what these messages from God are like.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
Chapter 14 is actually the difference between the sign of our personal prayer language and the gift of tongues (called prophecy here) that MUST be interpreted for the prophet of all. You see one is a sign and one is a gift. The other difference is the sign is given to all who believe, but the prophetic tongues is a higher manifestation of the Spirit to only be spoken if there is someone present known to have the office of interpretation. Those two gifts are not given to all who believe and if the interpreter is not present they are to remain silent.
Not every Pentecostal knows this mystery. Some even teach that our prayer language is not given to all because of the last verses of chapter 12 that is actually talking about offices, the higher manifestation of tongues and interpretation.
1 Corinthians 12: (offices)
28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.
As we abide in Christ, and He in us we grow spiritually and eventually may be given a higher gift if we seek all righteousness. It was 22 years of practicing my higher gifts and abiding in Him while suffering that I received the office of teacher that we talked about earlier. I hope this helps your understanding.
You still pit the bible against itself
Galatians 3:26–29 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ephesians 2:11–19 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Galatians 1:12 (UASV) — 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Gentiles were never in the Abrahamic Covenant and have NO INHERITANCE to speak of - unless you're a Gentile seeking to steal Israel's inheritance. You ignore that Saul was addressing Jews in Gal. 3.
Blessings of Abraham - NOT COVENANT. Stop adding to the bible things not in the Script.
"Covenant" "Blessings" and "Christ" are all different terms with different meanings, but you seem to enjoy using these words interchangeably, which is when you end up with false doctrine. But Gentiles do that.
A lot.
You will notice gentiles are specifically noted
If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heir according to the promise
Scripture states gentiles are now heirs according to the promise
Pay attention all in Christ are heirs according to the promise
You contradict scripture
Blessings of Abraham - NOT COVENANT. Stop adding to the bible things not in the Script.
this was the script as noted
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Racial hatred is contrary to the nature of one who is Christ's
Stop warring against the household of God
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I see your error now. The question is do YOU see your error now?
You see the word "Greek" in Galatians 3:28 and you see "Gentiles. Well, yes, Greeks were Gentile (non-Hebrew.) But now you're dealing with the people from Greece. But there were more than just Greeks from Greece in the Roman Empire. Here are a few of the major nationalities in the Roman Empire at its peak:
- Romans and Italians: The core population from the Italian peninsula.
- Gauls: From modern-day France and parts of Belgium, Switzerland, and northern Italy.
- Germans: Various tribes from beyond the Rhine and Danube rivers.
- Celts: In the British Isles, Spain, and other regions.
- Greeks: In Greece, Asia Minor (modern Turkey), and other Hellenistic regions.
- Egyptians: In the province of Egypt.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.
God was careful to identify Abram as a Hebrew from the family of Eber whose name is synonymous with "Hebrew."
13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Gen. 14:13.
According to Strong the word is "ʿibrî " and is patronymic from [#5677] (`Eber); an Eberite (i.e. Hebrew) or descendant of Eber.
You can read Genesis 11 to follow Abram's family line. Why doesn't Moses say Abram the Gentile (non-Eberite) in 14:13? Probably because God is giving the "ʿibrî " family line prominence that was obedient and separated to God right before he deals exclusively with a particular Eberite: Abram. And as you can see - and Scripture cannot be broken - in Genesis 17:7 God's covenant is between Himself, Abram, and Abram's seed "in their generations," later to be witnessed by the births of Isaac and Jacob, and before Jacob went into Egypt, Jacob's descendants numbering about 70 Hebrew souls. These were from the twelve sons of Jacob to be identified as the children of Jacob/Israel.
Well, there are no Greeks in the Abrahamic Covenant. So, here's what's going on:
1. You're adding Greeks/Grecians to the bible and in the Abrahamic Covenant where no Greeks/Grecians" are named and mentioned in Genesis 17 and breaking Scripture.
2. You're interpreting "Greeks/Grecians" to mean Gentiles which would break Scripture and leave all the other major and minor nationalities comprising the Roman Empire out of the equation and the grace of God.
3. You're whole interpretation is just plain narrow and wrong.
I think all three apply to your interpretation. You add to the bible, you break Scripture, and your interpretation is wholly wrong. Maybe there was an oversight by Moses. Surely, he meant to include Greeks/Grecians who were not even a people of prominence when Moses wrote the Pentateuch. But if that was the intent of Moses, why did he leave out the other non-Hebrews when he records God making covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed? There were Grecian tribes in Greece when Moses wrote the Pentateuch but were unknown.
Another thing is Saul who wrote to Jewish Christian churches in the Galatian region was a rabbi and Pharisee and was not referring to Gentiles by his use of the word "Greek" in Galatians 3:28, nor is Saul stupid to refer to Gentiles knowing fully himself that there were no "Greeks" or "Gentiles" in the Abrahamic Covenant and is not saying that Gentiles are in the Abrahamic Covenant narrative in Genesis 17, which would also place Saul against the Scripture itself and breaking Scripture and teaching something the Scripture does not record nor teach. So, what was rabbi Saul talking about in the third chapter of his letter to Galatia? Well, if anyone who knows Hebrew/Jewish history and culture - something you do not - can tell you upon even a quick purview of the passages in question are detailing is that if Saul is referring to all non-Hebrews by the use of "Greek" in Galatian 3:28, why didn't he say "Roman" or "Macedonian" or any of the other Gentile (non-Hebrew) groups? That's because he's not referring to any particular group of people but is instead referring to a rabbinic prayer of Jewish males. He's referring to the Hellenized version of the Judaic religion by Jews who lived in Gentile lands after the Assyrian conquest and maintained in Gentile lands a semblance of Judaism but one heavily influenced by Greek culture founded by Alexander the Great who lived around 330 BC.
The bottom line is this so pay attention. There are no Greeks/Grecians or Gentiles named or mentioned in the Abrahamic Covenant and Saul's letters - all of them - do not teach from the mind of Saul that Gentiles are in the Abrahamic Covenant because even just a passing look into the verse in Genesis 17:7 does not mention Gentiles but Abram and his seed, and to say Saul is adding Gentiles after the fact is plain breaking of Scripture and makes Saul a liar. But Gentiles try endlessly in trying to elbow themselves in the three Hebrew covenant God made with the Hebrew people and descendants of Abraham.
Since Gentiles were NEVER in any of the three Hebrew covenants, they cannot be heirs of a covenant they were never a part of in the first place. It's just bad hermeneutics and sinful interpretation.
The Household of God is Hebrew/Jewish. Always was and always will be.
But show me in the places of the Old Testament where the three Hebrew covenants were made where Gentiles are included, and you got something to stand on in your Gentile-inclusion interpretation. Show me in Scripture in the Law or Psalms or the Prophets where the covenants were made the inclusion and identifying of Gentiles in the three Hebrew covenants.
(Psst...you can't because there is none. You believe in a phantom theology of Gentile thieves trying to break Scripture and break in to the three HEBREW covenants.
Gentiles will be Gentiles.
Too bad God never made covenant with any Gentiles anywhere in Scripture.
One has to be a liar to try to show otherwise, or otherfoolish.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Then Saul has broken Scripture. And Saul is Almighty to change a covenant to add Gentiles after the fact and after God had closed and after stating unequivocally that the Abrahamic Covenant is with Abraham and HIS SEED.
Let us all worship Almighty Saul, King of Kings and the New Lord of the other lord.
But you cannot go to the original covenant as made in Genesis 17 and prove from there Gentiles are included in the Abraham covenant. Thus, you have to ADD to the bible and ADD to God's word:
6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov. 30:6.
Just like Adam and the woman added to God's word and showed themselves LIARS you do the same and Scripture declares YOU a LIAR.
What's wrong with you?
You can't read Saul is speaking to those under the Law ?
23 But before faith came, we (JEWS) were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our (JEWS) schoolmaster to bring us (JEWS) unto Christ, that we (JEWS) might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we (JEWS) are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye (JEWS) are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you (JEWS) as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye (JEWS) are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye (JEWS) be Christ’s, then are ye (JEWS) Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Ga 3:22–29.
Gentiles were NEVER under the Law and thus are DEFINITELY NOT "heirs according to the Abrahamic promise given to Abraham and HIS SEED.
Learn to read. Even a child can understand what Saul is saying and who he is saying it to.
You are a joke. You don't know how to read and add to the bible things not there.
What a fake.
No you are just an unbeliever who is lacking in love
Ephesians 2:11–20 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone,
Galatians 3:26–29 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ye = Jews and Greeks (gentiles)
and the same ye
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Actually they are there
but you are not
sethproton
Active member
You are the first here I have seen claiming to be Christian as well as claiming Paul was wrong.
But the Gentiles WERE always a part of God's plan; He just was not revealing that truth. By that I mean not giving the understanding, though it had been in hidden scripture.
NASB Romans 11:14 + 17
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
The broken off branches were the Jews. the Gentiles were grafted in.
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He dislikes gentiles and thus any scripture which puts them on the same footing as Jews in the church
sethproton
Active member
Do you think he would corroborate that position? I have been back posting for a few months I think. I've read many of his posts and have wondered where is POV comes from.
Hopefully, we are all still learning what The Word says and what God wants from us. I think once we arrive at our final stance, we begin to deteriorate. By that I mean truth becomes stale and powerless in us if we become complacent in our understanding of scripture and will unconsciously dwindle away from struggling to grasp all we can. This is subtle erosion as compared to dramatic loss.
If you read his posts it is apparent.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
NOW I understand your "reverse hermeneutics."
You start at the end, find an identifier and go in reverse changing all the pronouns until you get to the beginning of the paragraph.
Man, not even Hebrew read from right to left is reverse as your bible interpretation. Hebrew may be dyslexic but to them, as in English, it is still read from beginning to end, not reverse from end to beginning. Now I see your problem. You don't know how to read.
sethproton
Active member
I do not read large posts. I scan them top and bottom, and if they really engage me I might read a few pages. I just look for something I can respond to.
Look for the keyword gentile
No actually you lack understanding
I changed nothing, you simply reject the scriptures you do not like, refusing any new data beyond what you have accepted.
Thus, you refuse to allow the New Testament to modify what transpired under the old, denying the hermeneutical priority of the New over the old.
These are clear
Ephesians 2:11–20 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone,
Galatians 3:26–29 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ye = Jews and Greeks (gentiles)
and the same ye
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Actually they are there
but you are not
sethproton
Active member
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
No, Gentiles were to be the recipient of the light of the Hebrew people, but it says nothing about Gentiles receiving salvation. Israel was to be a light to the Gentiles TO SEE not to participate.
I have been waiting for months now for some Gentile to show me in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets of a passage of Gentiles being included in the Hebrew Covenants and no one can produce any passage stating this. You all go to Saul and by your interpretation make him break with Scripture and add Gentiles in the Hebrew Covenants. Saul was a rabbi. He knew Scripture. Saul was a Pharisee. He knew Scripture. Probably had his own copy of the Hebrew bible. But Saul would also know - and he quotes no Old Testament passage - of Gentiles being included in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17; the Mosaic Covenant described in Exodus; the New Covenant described in Jeremiah.
Abrahamic Covenant: Between God and Abraham and his seed.
Mosaic Covenant: Between God and the Children of Israel.
The New Covenant: Between God and the House of Israel (ten northern tribes) and the House of Judah (two southern tribes) totaling in the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel.
The only thing hidden in the Old Testament is Messiah/Christ IN YOU.
There is nothing in the Old Testament of Law, Psalms, and Prophets any passage stating God making covenant with Gentiles. None.
So, where are you getting your doctrine? Not from Scripture but from INTERPRETATION of Scripture.
Face it. NONE of the apostles - including Saul - would ever state something in their letters that would contradict the Hebrew Scripture or break Scripture. The heresy is all about your interpretation. You can't find a passage in the OT so you make up an interpretation and hang on to that over the very word of God.
The Gentiles referred to here are circumcised, committed Gentile proselytes who are allies and citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, or political allies. Even the Jews knew the Abrahamic Covenant is between God and his seed, a people identified in Exodus as the children of ISRAEL and in Jeremiah as the House of ISRAEL and JUDAH.
And it can also mean uncircumcised, uncommitted Gentile God-Fearers, like the Roman centurion or Cornelius. Having access and present every sabbath and the first Gentiles in the synagogues to hear the witness of the Jewish Christians returning from Jerusalem born-again after Pentecost. THEY would be first to hear about Christ and even though they were allied with Israel and NOT seed of Abraham, they knew they were not in any of the Hebrew covenants. They are smarter than many Gentiles today that can't read, add to the bible, and show themselves liars (Prov. 30:6.) They would be more qualified to be identified as the "wild" Olive tree branches being allied with Israel, but being an Olive tree branch does not make them in covenant with Abraham and his seed. All this twisting of Scripture and adding to the bible and re-interpretation to try to get Gentiles mentioned in Genesis 17:7 or Jeremiah 31:31 covenants.
The broken off were disobedient Jews. The re-grafting is the disobedient Jews returning to the fold.
But if you can show me a passage in the OT Gentiles being identified as Olive tree then you will have proved your doctrine.
Go ahead. I'll wait. Show me an OT Scripture of God calling Gentiles Olive tree let alone a "wild" Olive tree.
I'll wait.
Seth
I have agreed with this for the most part, not 100%. Many times the NT quotes the OT and if you go back to the context it throws more light on what the NT means. And of course that is describing how I study, not what the Spirit filled writers intended. But I think that while this principle you wrote is most often true, the principle is not stated in the Bible and we should be careful not to cause people to think it is anything more than a human strategy.
But that is not hermeneutical priority. Hermeneutical priority recognizes the New Testament contains the latest revelation so it can
modify or explain an Old Testament passage in a way not seen under the Old Testament
We have for example a poster who wishes to omit gentiles from any relationship with God's covenants, so he reads from the Old Testament and rejects data from the New Testament which modifies the data found in the Old Testament
I have agreed with this for the most part, not 100%. Many times the NT quotes the OT and if you go back to the context it throws more light on what the NT means. And of course that is describing how I study, not what the Spirit filled writers intended. But I think that while this principle you wrote is most often true, the principle is not stated in the Bible and we should be careful not to cause people to think it is anything more than a human strategy.
But that is not hermeneutical priority. Hermeneutical priority recognizes the New Testament contains the latest revelation so it can
modify or explain an Old Testament passage in a way not seen under the Old Testament
We have for example a poster who wishes to omit gentiles from any relationship with God's covenants, so he reads from the Old Testament and rejects data from the New Testament which modifies the data found in the Old Testament
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Look for the keyword "Gentile" in any of the three Hebrew covenants.
(there are none.)
