Indwelling Vs In the midst

360watt

Active member
Going through the New Testament, we can see the Holy Spirit indwelling people at salvation aka the book of John and people being given eternal life at the point of believing.

Then we also see the Holy Spirit 'in the midst' of already saved and water baptised assemblies believers.

Matthew 18 has the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of church members resolving sin issues in the church.

In Acts, there are groups of believers who get water baptised and then the Holy Spirit comes upon or in the midst of them.

What often happens though..is we see the words 'they received the Holy Spirit ' and assume it's talking about individual salvation. The problem with doing this.. is the evidence is often weighted that they are already saved, already water baptised.

In these cases .. I would submit they are receiving the Holy Spirit to become a New Testament local church. Although saying 'local' in front of church is a bit of bad English...seeing church is always local.

Too often a group receiving the Spirit or having the Holy Spirit 'upon ' them is equated with salvation. But many times the context is of already converted and water baptised believers.
 
Some passages to ponder



John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14:20

I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 17:21
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Rom 8:9-11
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of Goddwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Col 1:26-27
the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 Cor 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of Goddwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

1 Cor 6:19-20
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


Eph 3:17
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
 
Why not receiving an extra empowerment from God?

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; (Acts 1:8 NKJ)
 
Why not receiving an extra empowerment from God?

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; (Acts 1:8 NKJ)
That power in the new birth , the new heart. :) The power of the Holy Spirit, the same spirit that Raised Jesus from the dead dwells in all believers. You don’t get parts of the Spirit. You either have Him or you don’t. No inbetween.

Romans 8
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba,Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
 
Yes...so here it is. Individual indwelling in view or already converted, indwelt .. being empowered?
The indwelling is empowering that’s what the new birth does. We who were dead in our sins are now alive. Sin no longer has power over you. We are no longer slaves to sin but are now slaves of Christ. We have a new Master and a new heart to serve our new Lord and Master as His disciples.
 
Yes...so here it is. Individual indwelling in view or already converted, indwelt .. being empowered?

Jesus had already breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit, remember that.

Empowering is the only logical conclusion left, and directly what the text tells us.
 
Jesus had already breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit, remember that.

Empowering is the only logical conclusion left, and directly what the text tells us.
they were now born again until Pentecost when the promise of the Holy Spirit would come to indwell them.
 
Jesus had already breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit, remember that.

Empowering is the only logical conclusion left, and directly what the text tells us.

Right, so as a whole group, they were breathed on. Did they already have indwelling individually before even that?

A disciple of Jesus that wasn't indwelt before Pentecost would be the alternative, which I don't see as biblical.
 
The new birth and the gospel.


Born of Water John 3



John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.



The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.



The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !



John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.



1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)

2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )

3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )

4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases

5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to

6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)

7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)

8- God causes us to be born again

9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work

10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.



There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.



Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :



1- the 2 births

2- the wind and the spirit

3- flesh and the spirit

4- water and spirit

5- earthly and heavenly things

6- effects of both the wind and spirit

7- the seen with the unseen

8- the physical with the supernatural

9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding

10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom



summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)



Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRSIT HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.

hope this helps !!!
 
“Believe Me, woman, an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21–24)

Jesus’ words point to a new phase in human history, a deep shift at the core of the world, a new way of being human In The Spirit.

 
The new birth and the gospel.


Born of Water John 3



John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.



The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.



The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !



John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.



1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)

2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )

3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )

4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases

5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to

6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)

7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)

8- God causes us to be born again

9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work

10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.



There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.



Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :



1- the 2 births

2- the wind and the spirit

3- flesh and the spirit

4- water and spirit

5- earthly and heavenly things

6- effects of both the wind and spirit

7- the seen with the unseen

8- the physical with the supernatural

9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding

10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom



summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)



Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRSIT HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.

hope this helps !!!
Yes it is thru Jesus' death and resurrection that salvation is.

So the question is about those looking forward to His coming in the OT. This was faith in Jesus before the resurrection. ' they are they that testify of Me'

Jesus referred to the prophets foretelling Him in talking about His purpose and mission.

I believe salvation was the same in the OT. By grace thru faith in Christ.

Different way of serving God OT obviously..but a different way of salvation?
 
Yes it is thru Jesus' death and resurrection that salvation is.

So the question is about those looking forward to His coming in the OT. This was faith in Jesus before the resurrection. ' they are they that testify of Me'

Jesus referred to the prophets foretelling Him in talking about His purpose and mission.

I believe salvation was the same in the OT. By grace thru faith in Christ.

Different way of serving God OT obviously..but a different way of salvation?
Yes except they were not born again in the OT. The Spirit of God came off and on the prophets was did not permanently indwell them like in the NT.
 
Yes except they were not born again in the OT. The Spirit of God came off and on the prophets was did not permanently indwell them like in the NT.

David had his kingship blessed by the Holy Spirit. Saul too. So there is the Holy Spirit empowering their office as king. David in psalms was asking God not to take His Holy Spirit from him.

I always took this as nothing to do with salvation, but their office of king being possibly taken away as a king of Israel.

Seeing Saul was overcome with evil I always thought he was never converted, but had his office as king blessed by God.
 
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