He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[Fool4Christ]

You are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. If the truth is what you were sincerely looking for then you would have already found it in the numerous posts that multiple believers (including myself) have already shared with you. If accommodating your biased church of Christ doctrine (with a heavy emphasis on your watered-down gospel) is the only thing that you are interested in, then you will not find the truth no matter how many times that we share it with you. Sadly, your beliefs are fixed, and your ears are dull of hearing.

I read up on that Church of Christ a while back and it looked pretty messed up to me. I've going to take a refresher course

 

[Fool4Christ]

I think I may have gone as far as I need to go. This sounds really familiar, Rather like what gets posted here.

Church Of Christ

What Damns A Person?

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

• When a man wants to teach salvation by water baptism he ignores half of the verse.
• He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved! Most definitely.
• But who is damned? “He that believeth not”.
• As a general rule most people who believe will also be baptized.
• But it is “he that believeth not shall be damned”.
• The thing that damns a person is UNBELIEF! It isn’t failing to be water baptized.
• Plenty of verses prove this fact.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[mailmandan]

I read up on that Church of Christ a while back and it looked pretty messed up to me. I've going to take a refresher course

Testimony on my experience with the church of Christ: It was a friend who invited me to attend the church of Christ when I was still a teenager. I had attended there for about 6 months or so before leaving. My friend's aunt was a very devout member of the church of Christ. I'll never forget several years later running into my friend's aunt at my friend's daughter's birthday party. Since then, I had received Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian. I shared this good news with his aunt but the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not "the church of Christ," she bowed her head in sadness as if to imply that I was still lost because I didn't say the church of Christ.

Her husband afterward approached me and I shared the good news with him that I received Christ through faith and am now a born-again Christian as well and he had the same question, "where do you attend church," and when I told him and the answer was not the church of Christ, his eyes glazed over followed by a cheesy legalistic grin on his face and he simply walked away from me and neither of them would speak with me for the rest of the night. I knew that something was terribly wrong! I could hear them both over in the corner going on and on about "salvation by water baptism" and "only the church of Christ is the true church." I quickly came to realize they were both deceived.

 

[Fool4Christ]

Testimony on my experience with the church of Christ: It was a friend who invited me to attend the church of Christ when I was still a teenager. I had attended there for about 6 months or so before leaving. My friend's aunt was a very devout member of the church of Christ. I'll never forget several years later running into my friend's aunt at my friend's daughter's birthday party. Since then, I had received Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian. I shared this good news with his aunt but the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not "the church of Christ," she bowed her head in sadness as if to imply that I was still lost because I didn't say the church of Christ.

Her husband afterward approached me and I shared the good news with him that I received Christ through faith and am now a born-again Christian as well and he had the same question, "where do you attend church," and when I told him and the answer was not the church of Christ, his eyes glazed over followed by a cheesy legalistic grin on his face and he simply walked away from me and neither of them would speak with me for the rest of the night. I knew that something was terribly wrong! I could hear them both over in the corner going on and on about "salvation by water baptism" and "only the church of Christ is the true church." I quickly came to realize they were both deceived.

I hear you, anytime I hear that a church or denomination says that you have to be one of their members in order to be saved right then and there I know it's bunk. And you can tell they don't have the love of Jesus in their heart because they look down on and dislike anyone that's not a member of their cult.

 

[Frank]

There's nothing wrong with water baptism. I think we should all be water baptized. On a personal level you can look back on it and remember when you were saved and when you were baptized. Like a milestone.

Plus you can think about the ceremony itself and what was said and what you repeated like this one.

When the person is ready to repeat after you, start by saying, “I believe that Jesus is the Christ,” then pause and let them repeat the phrase. Then say, “The son of the living God,” and let them repeat. Continue, “And I accept Him as my Lord and Savior.”

When I accepted Christ as my lord and savior I was in the military chapel by myself, well I wasn't by myself God was with me. And he showed me that he was.

Later on when I was baptized I made a public confession of my salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

There's nothing wrong with water baptism. I think we should all be water baptized. On a personal level you can look back on it and remember when you were saved and when you were baptized. Like a milestone.

Plus you can think about the ceremony itself and what was said and what you repeated like this one.

When the person is ready to repeat after you, start by saying, “I believe that Jesus is the Christ,” then pause and let them repeat the phrase. Then say, “The son of the living God,” and let them repeat. Continue, “And I accept Him as my Lord and Savior.”

When I accepted Christ as my lord and savior I was in the military chapel by myself, well I wasn't by myself God was with me. And he showed me that he was.

Later on when I was baptized I made a public confession of my salvation.

Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience. Anyone professing to believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and yet refuses to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone who truly believes the gospel would refuse to be water baptized. I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion and I cannot think of one Christian that I know who has refused to be water baptized after their conversion.

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture. As in marriage, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this.

Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Baptism put it in its proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved the moment that they place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). This does not remove good works/acts of obedience (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. If the truth is what you were sincerely looking for then you would have already found it in the numerous posts that multiple believers (including myself) have already shared with you. If accommodating your biased church of Christ doctrine (with a heavy emphasis on your watered-down gospel) is the only thing that you are interested in, then you will not find the truth no matter how many times that we share it with you. Sadly, your beliefs are fixed, and your ears are dull of hearing.

I am not indoctrinated in the Church of Christ. My conclusions are the result of many years of study of the Word of God. After I arrived at a clear understanding of what the Word says, I did extensive study of hundreds of papers written by all sides of this debate. After reading all of these studies, and repeated conversations with people like yourself, I find that people who think as you do ALWAYS ignore, sweep under the rug, or redefine many passages of Scripture that are very clear on what God requires and expects of those who follow Him.

It saddens me greatly that you ignore the Word of God in favor of your personal bias and preconceptions. I pray that God will open your eyes and heart to the truth.

 

[mailmandan]

My conclusions are the result of many years of study of the Word of God. After I arrived at a clear understanding of what the Word says, I did extensive study of hundreds of papers written by all sides of this debate. After reading all of these studies, and repeated conversations with people like yourself, I find that people who think as you do ALWAYS ignore, sweep under the rug, or redefine many passages of Scripture that are very clear on what God requires and expects of those who follow Him.

It saddens me greatly that you ignore the Word of God in favor of your personal bias and preconceptions. I pray that God will open your eyes and heart to the truth.

DITTO.

 

[mailmandan]

I am not indoctrinated in the Church of Christ.

Were you born and raised in the church of Christ?

 

[Damien]

Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture. The Bible contains no record of Jesus baptizing anyone, and the Apostle Paul declared that salvation is a response of faith to the gospel, not the act of baptism.

Baptism is a step of obedience for every believer, but baptism can't save you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Were you born and raised in the church of Christ?

I was born into a family that studies the Word of God. I was raised reading the Word, and studying its instructions on how to live, and how to relate to God. I have worshiped with several Churches of Christ, with many Baptist Churches, with a Methodist (once or twice, yikes), and several "non-denominational" denominations. If I am "indoctrinated", it is in Bible study and worship of the Lord God, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit of God. I do not agree with all of any denomination's doctrine, but I find that most of what people disagree on are not "salvation issues". Most things, you can believe one thing and I can believe another and both of us still be right with God. But baptism is a core "salvation issue". Without baptism we are not clothed with Christ (Gal 3:26), we are not born again (Rom 6:5), we are not dead to sin (Rom 6:3-4), our sin has not been cut from us (Col 2:11-12), we are not saved (1 Pet 3:21).

 

[mailmandan]

But baptism is a core "salvation issue". Without baptism we are not clothed with Christ (Gal 3:26), we are not born again (Rom 6:5), we are not dead to sin (Rom 6:3-4), our sin has not been cut from us (Col 2:11-12), we are not saved (1 Pet 3:21).

So the core message in the gospel that you preach is "water baptized or condemned?"

 

[Doug Brents]

So the core message in the gospel that you preach is "water baptized or condemned?"

I teach what the Bible teaches, unlike many on this forum:
All men sin and are cut off from God because of it.
Jesus became a man so that He could be our kinsman redeemer.
He lived a perfect life so that He would be the perfect sacrifice, taking our punishment for sin so that we could receive His purity and be saved.
Jesus said that unless you are born of both water (water baptism) and the Spirit (the working of the Holy Spirit) you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Peter tells us that baptism saves us.
Paul tells us that it is in baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us to Jesus' death and resurrection.
Paul tells us that it is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ.
These last five are direct connections between baptism and salvation.

 

[Affinity]

Alrighty then, I've been assigned to moderate this thread. I take my job very seriously. So just remember.


View attachment 731

That's cool because we're watching you too!

 

[Affinity]

I teach what the Bible teaches, unlike many on this forum:
All men sin and are cut off from God because of it.
Jesus became a man so that He could be our kinsman redeemer.
He lived a perfect life so that He would be the perfect sacrifice, taking our punishment for sin so that we could receive His purity and be saved.
Jesus said that unless you are born of both water (water baptism) and the Spirit (the working of the Holy Spirit) you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Peter tells us that baptism saves us.
Paul tells us that it is in baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us to Jesus' death and resurrection.
Paul tells us that it is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ.
These last five are direct connections between baptism and salvation.

You just think you teach what the bible teaches. This is actually what you're doing:

“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut. 4:2.)

What Does the Bible Say About People Who Change The Word Of God?

Bible verses about People Who Change The Word Of God

www.openbible.info

 

[Handaan]

The Bible commands baptism, but baptism does not save us from sin. Communion cannot save. It is not even our faith that saves, only Jesus saves. Faith is a gift from God, made possible by the grace of Jesus Christ, whereby we lay hold of the promise offered freely. Baptism is God’s sign of marking you out, bringing you in, and cleansing you from sin.

Baptism of a sign that you have been saved.

 

[dwight92070]

Naaman did not receive forgiveness of sin from dipping in Jordan. He was not promised remission of sin by dipping in Jordan. He was promised remission of leprosy (another disease that is impossible for man to cure, even today). The reference to him is not in what was cleansed, but in the obedience that was required to receive it. The same is true with the widow who baked her last cake for the prophet and her oil and flour did not run out until the end of the famine. The same it true of the widow who poured the oil into every jar she could find to pay her debts and keep her son from slavery. The same is true of the Israelites taking of the Promised Land starting with the fall of the walls of Jericho (and there is no water in any of those stories). It is not the water, but the obedience to God in what He commands that is essential.

If Jesus is your Lord, then you will obey His commandments. If you do not obey His commandments, then He is not your Lord.

He commanded that His Apostles (and through them, all other disciples of His) baptize (Matt 28:19). He said that those who are baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). He told us through His Apostle's writings that baptism saves us (1 Pet 3:21), that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ through baptism (Rom 6:1-7), that our sin is cut from us and we are united to Christ through baptism (Col 2:11-14), and that no one will enter the Kingdom of God (be saved) except through being born again by water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

Jesus had a order to His commands. Repent and believe in the gospel. Only then, after they had become new disciples, did His apostles baptize them. John 4:1
His command in Matthew 28:19 also presents the same order. First, make disciples, second, baptize them in the name of the (Trinity). Repentance and belief, which is salvation, always preceded baptism in the book of Acts.

Why did you leave out part of Jesus' command in Mat. 28:19, apparently you don't like that part? You left out "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations ..." Then, after that, "baptizing them ..."

You again leave out part of Jesus' command in Mark 16:16, because you also don't want to acknowledge all of what Jesus said. You left out "The one who has believed" (and has been baptized will be saved.) Again the order is clear, believe first, then baptism. Yes, Jesus is acknowledging here that if a person has believed and has been baptized, he will be saved. I think we agree on that. But Jesus goes on to say that if a person has not believed, he will be condemned. Nowhere does Jesus say that if a person believes, but is not baptized, he will be condemned. That is your Church of Christ indoctrination, that adds to the scripture, things that are not there.
Your mis"interpretation" of John 3:5. In order for baptism to even be mentioned here, as part of the proper understanding, you have to take the passage totally out of its context. The context is childbirth, not baptism.

Actually you teach what the Church of Christ teaches, not what the Bible teaches.

 

[Doug Brents]

You just think you teach what the bible teaches. This is actually what you're doing:

“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut. 4:2.)

First off, the OT was fulfilled, and so is no longer applicable to those living after Jesus died.
Second, Deut 4:2 is only applicable to the Law which Moses was speaking to the nation of Israel. It is not applicable to the NT.
Third, I am not adding to, nor am I taking away from, any NT commandment. On the contrary, I am teaching exactly what Scripture says. It is those who claim "belief only" that are taking away from Scripture. They ignore direct statements of God, explain away clear teaching from God, and prove that God is not really their Lord by defying His direct commands.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus had a order to His commands. Repent and believe in the gospel. Only then, after they had become new disciples, did His apostles baptize them. John 4:1
His command in Matthew 28:19 also presents the same order. First, make disciples, second, baptize them in the name of the (Trinity). Repentance and belief, which is salvation, always preceded baptism in the book of Acts.

Sure, repentance and belief always precede baptism, because without repentance and belief baptism just gets you wet. But read the Scriptures.
When does Rom 6:1-7 say we die to sin? When we believe? No, it says we die to sin in baptism.
When does Col 2:11-14 say the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us? When we repent? No, it says our sins are cut from us in baptism.
When does 1 Pet 3:21 say we are saved? When we repent or believe? No, it says we are saved in baptism.
When does Gal 3:27 say we are clothed with Christ? It says we are clothed with Christ when we are baptized.

Why did you leave out part of Jesus' command in Mat. 28:19, apparently you don't like that part? You left out "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations ..." Then, after that, "baptizing them ..."

I don't leave that out at all. Just being a disciple (follower) of Jesus does not make one saved. Mark 16:16 is another record of the same conversation recorded in Matt 28:19, and there Mark records that Jesus said whoever believe and is baptized will be saved. Not just believe, but believe and be baptized. This is what Peter tells the people on Pentecost, "Repent and be baptized for (in order to receive) the remission of sin". Remission of sin is conditioned upon both "repent" and "be baptized", not just one but both.

You again leave out part of Jesus' command in Mark 16:16, because you also don't want to acknowledge all of what Jesus said. You left out "The one who has believed" (and has been baptized will be saved.) Again the order is clear, believe first, then baptism. Yes, Jesus is acknowledging here that if a person has believed and has been baptized, he will be saved. I think we agree on that. But Jesus goes on to say that if a person has not believed, he will be condemned. Nowhere does Jesus say that if a person believes, but is not baptized, he will be condemned. That is your Church of Christ indoctrination, that adds to the scripture, things that are not there.

You are mistaken here. Jesus said in John 3:5 that no one will enter the Kingdom of God (be saved) who is not born again through water and the Spirit. We are already condemned. We remain condemned if we don't believe. But we are only saved when we are reborn which happens when we are born of water (baptism) and the Spirit. And this is mirrored in Col 2:11-14 where we see the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit) cutting our sin from us in baptism (born of water).

Your mis"interpretation" of John 3:5. In order for baptism to even be mentioned here, as part of the proper understanding, you have to take the passage totally out of its context. The context is childbirth, not baptism.

The context is "re"birth. Not childbirth. One who is reborn must have once been born to begin with. The rebirth requires both water and the Spirit.

Actually you teach what the Church of Christ teaches, not what the Bible teaches.

The Church of Christ teaches several false doctrines and erroneous ideas, but in their teaching on baptism they are one of the only denominations that get Scripture correct.

 

[mailmandan]

I teach what the Bible teaches, unlike many on this forum:
All men sin and are cut off from God because of it.
Jesus became a man so that He could be our kinsman redeemer.
He lived a perfect life so that He would be the perfect sacrifice, taking our punishment for sin so that we could receive His purity and be saved.
Jesus said that unless you are born of both water (water baptism) and the Spirit (the working of the Holy Spirit) you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Peter tells us that baptism saves us.
Paul tells us that it is in baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us to Jesus' death and resurrection.
Paul tells us that it is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ.
These last five are direct connections between baptism and salvation.

John 3:5 simply says "water" and the Spirit and not (water baptism). You read your personal bias into the verse and added to scripture. In John 3:15,16,18 Jesus makes the connection between belief and salvation "apart from water baptism." Elsewhere in the book of John, Jesus further makes the same connection. (5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5) So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you (I noticed you stopped right there and ignored the rest) yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.

Removal of sin/being united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection/clothed in Christ is SIGNIFIED in water but NOT PROCURED. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - A symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality. You need to learn how to read scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. Your eisegesis is noted.