Sealed by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, Paul covered works in general - God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6) saved by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8,9) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9). Works-salvationists will try to spin the truth and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) but just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, one cannot dissect good works from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Good works in general cannot be "detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

*NOWHERE does the Bible teach that we are saved by grace through faith "plus works" of any kind.

Its amazing paul in galations 1 destroys this "different" or perverted gospel. and Peter in 2 Peter 2 destroys this idea of denying Christ (the cross) and his means of salvation. calling them false prophets and teachers who are headed to their own destruction

 

[mailmandan]

um faith results in salvation

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

Yes, faith in Christ and not faith in works. Doug's flawed 4 step gospel plan (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) culminates in salvation by works.

 

[mailmandan]

Its amazing paul in galations 1 destroys this "different" or perverted gospel. and Peter in 2 Peter 2 destroys this idea of denying Christ (the cross) and his means of salvation. calling them false prophets and teachers who are headed to their own destruction

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry you are ignoring them all, and even contradict yourself multiple times.

Scripture does not state they received only empowerment.

That is your theology speaking which ignores the following.

Yes, in the context of the passages it does say that they received only empowerment. They received the same thing that the Apostles did on Pentecost, and the Apostles received empowerment, not indwelling, because they had already received indwelling before Jesus ascended into Heaven (John 20:22). Both the Apostles and the Gentiles received tongues and praise. That is all that Scripture says they received.

Where did you address that fact seen below
You didn't

I have many times. The indwelling of the Spirit was first given after Jesus was glorified, which happened in His death and resurrection (starting even before His death per John 13:31). So after His resurrection, when Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to the Apostles (John 20:22), the indwelling of the Spirit begins. But that does not mean that every time the phrase "filled with the Holy Spirit" is found in Scripture that it means the indwelling of the Spirit. It can and does sometimes simply mean empowerment.

You did not address that either

Acts 2:38 does indeed have the phrase "the gift of the Holy Spirit". But what gift of the Holy Spirit is it talking about? Indwelling? Prophecy? Healing? Tongues? Walking on water? It could be referring to any or all of these. Everyone who is baptized into Christ WILL receive the indwelling, but they may or may not receive any of the other gifts. But the fact that someone receives the gifts of empowerment does not indicate their salvation. The Holy Spirit can empower those who are not yet in Christ, as is evidenced by the Gentiles in Acts 10.

Still yet another argument you do not address
In fact You offer only a bald denial of multiple verses of scripture.

I have indeed addressed this. Their hearts were cleansed by faith. They did not exhibit any faith before, or even when, the Spirit fell on them. Their faith was demonstrated when they submitted to Peter's command to be baptized. That is when they were saved.

 

[Jim]

There are NO verses that make confession and baptism necessary for salvation - so you reveal your ignorance of scripture.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Sadly,

It is so easy for people to look at self and see good. So satan steps right in as an angel of light. and says Paul is great, But faith alone is not enough. we have to also be circumcised (baptized) and do these other works of the law (the church)

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus obviously assumes that the man of normal intelligence knows what faith is, as does the Bible itself. Faith is to put trust or belief in some one or some thing. Hebrews defines it in more detail, but it's essentially the same thing.

However, faith in God, according to Hebrews, adds a new dimension:

"And without faith it is impossible to please (God), for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

He is a rewarder of whom? "Those who SEEK Him." Those who take an action and seek after God. As He says in 1 Chronicles 28:9, "If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever." Our action, seeking, comes first.

Did you notice, faith in God does not require baptism or confession or any other work? It ONLY requires BELIEF in two things - that God exists and that He will reward any who seek Him - some call that "mental assent", although the Bible does not call it that. That term belittles and dishonors God and Jesus and His sacrifice for us.

Adherence to the idea that "mental assent" results in salvation belittles and dishonors God. We are not saved by ONLY BELIEF in those two things. Jesus is not the author of salvation to those who accept the truth of who God is and accept that IF they were to seek Him He would reward them. He s the author of salvation to those who OBEY Him (Heb 5:9). As Jesus' question makes clear in Matt 21:31, those who DO the will of the Father will be the ones saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Sadly,

It is so easy for people to look at self and see good. So satan steps right in as an angel of light. and says Paul is great, But faith alone is not enough. we have to also be circumcised (baptized) and do these other works of the law (the church)

Pride leads to SELF promotion, SELF righteousness and SELF preservation. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to (by faith) trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Instead, their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[360watt]

Knowing before conversion you are a sinner deserving hell takes out any notion of good works leading to salvation. It also takes out the notion of being able to lose salvation after conversion because you aren't saved knowing you had your own effort to get saved.

 

[Complete]

Yes Cornelius and the other gentiles were given the Holy Spirit before water baptism
Having received the greater baptism they were entitled to the lesser baptism

'Endeavouring to keep
.. the unity of the Spirit
.... in the bond of peace.
There is,
.. one body, and
.... one Spirit, even as ye are called in
...... one hope of your calling;
........ One Lord,
.......... one faith,
............ one baptism,
.............. One God and Father of all,
Who is above all,
.. and through all,
.... and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace
according to the measure of the gift of Christ.'
(Eph 4:3-7)

Hello @TomL,

With respect, during the period covered by the Acts of the Apostles, in which Paul wrote to the Galatians, Corinthians, Romans, Thessalonians and Hebrews, there were two baptisms taking place concurrently. Neither is referred to as being 'lesser'.

However at the end of that period, as 'The Lord's Prisoner', Paul wrote to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and to Timothy. Titus & Philemon, in which the revelation concerning, 'The Church which is The Body of Christ' is revealed: and only 'one Baptism' are we told to 'Keep', in order to preserve,'The Unity of The Spirit' in 'the bond of peace'. Which is baptism not 'with' but 'by' the Holy Spirit, in which we are identified with Christ, in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection, and ascension to God's right hand ( Rom. 5:12-8:39 & Eph. 2:6 ).

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[TomL]

'Endeavouring to keep
.. the unity of the Spirit
.... in the bond of peace.
There is,
.. one body, and
.... one Spirit, even as ye are called in
...... one hope of your calling;
........ One Lord,
.......... one faith,
............ one baptism,
.............. One God and Father of all,
Who is above all,
.. and through all,
.... and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace
according to the measure of the gift of Christ.'
(Eph 4:3-7)

Hello @TomL,

With respect, during the period covered by the Acts of the Apostles, in which Paul wrote to the Galatians, Corinthians, Romans, Thessalonians and Hebrews, there were two baptisms taking place concurrently. Neither is referred to as being 'lesser'.

However at the end of that period, as 'The Lord's Prisoner', Paul wrote to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and to Timothy. Titus & Philemon, in which the revelation concerning, 'The Church which is The Body of Christ' is revealed: and only 'one Baptism' are we told to 'Keep', in order to preserve,'The Unity of The Spirit' in 'the bond of peace'. Which is baptism not 'with' but 'by' the Holy Spirit, in which we are identified with Christ, in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection, and ascension to God's right hand ( Rom. 5:12-8:39 & Eph. 2:6 ).

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

I would consider "with" as Christ is the baptizer and the element he employs is the Holy Spirit

In any case the Greek preposition is "en" in 1 Cor 12:13 as it is in the gospels and the book of Acts

 

[TomL]

Yes, in the context of the passages it does say that they received only empowerment. They received the same thing that the Apostles did on Pentecost, and the Apostles received empowerment, not indwelling, because they had already received indwelling before Jesus ascended into Heaven (John 20:22). Both the Apostles and the Gentiles received tongues and praise. That is all that Scripture says they received.

Sorry, nowhere is that stated

And you ignored the following

Acts 1:4–5 (NASB95) — 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

which speaks of the promise of the father and the Spirit he sends

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (NASB95) — 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Not a temporary filling of the Spirit which was in Jesus

Then you ignored all the following

Acts 10:45–47 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”

They received the Spirit, a phrase which is used to indicate the indwelling of the spirit

Where did you address that fact seen below

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
You didn't


They received the gift of the Spirit

the gift of the Holy Spirit which your theology holds is salvational in

Acts 2:37–38 (LEB) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “What should we do, men and brothers?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
You did not address that either

They were baptized en the Spirit

Acts 11:14–16 (LEB) — 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Which you and scripture indicated as saving

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit.
Click to expand...
Yet another passage you do not address and you have even contradicted yourself.

They had their heart purified by faith

Acts 15:8–10 (LEB) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

a purification which is accompanied by the giving of the Spirit a term indicating the indwelling of the Spirit

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them.
Still yet another argument you do not address

In fact You offer only a bald denial of multiple verses of scripture.

 

[TomL]

Yes, faith in Christ and not faith in works. Doug's flawed 4 step gospel plan (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) culminates in salvation by works.

Yep, Doug resists scripture which does not support his theology

 

[TomL]

I have many times. The indwelling of the Spirit was first given after Jesus was glorified, which happened in His death and resurrection (starting even before His death per John 13:31). So after His resurrection, when Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to the Apostles (John 20:22), the indwelling of the Spirit begins. But that does not mean that every time the phrase "filled with the Holy Spirit" is found in Scripture that it means the indwelling of the Spirit. It can and does sometimes simply mean empowerment.

Sorry, regarding the gentiles you ignore the facts.

They received the Spirit

That states what was received. i.e, the Spirit

They were given the Spirit

Again it is the Spirit they were given

The gift of the Spirit was poured out on them

You quote Acts 2:38 where that gift is saving

They were baptized en the Spirit

which you affirmed was saving

Hello

So does scripture

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

All you are doing is ignoring multiple verses

 

[TomL]

I have many times. The indwelling of the Spirit was first given after Jesus was glorified, which happened in His death and resurrection (starting even before His death per John 13:31). So after His resurrection, when Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to the Apostles (John 20:22), the indwelling of the Spirit begins. But that does not mean that every time the phrase "filled with the Holy Spirit" is found in Scripture that it means the indwelling of the Spirit. It can and does sometimes simply mean empowerment.

Sorry, that is simply an assumption. As I noted the 11 were told to wait for the promise of the Father which involves the indwelling of the Spirit/

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (NASB95) — 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Further, we know on the day of Pentecost there were about 120, far more than the 11 seen in John 20:22.

So you have no argument that the day of Pentecost was simply empowerment.

These all receive the promise of the Father

Acts 1:4–5 (NASB95) — 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Remember that baptism you affirmed was saving

 

[TomL]

Acts 2:38 does indeed have the phrase "the gift of the Holy Spirit". But what gift of the Holy Spirit is it talking about? Indwelling? Prophecy? Healing? Tongues? Walking on water? It could be referring to any or all of these. Everyone who is baptized into Christ WILL receive the indwelling, but they may or may not receive any of the other gifts. But the fact that someone receives the gifts of empowerment does not indicate their salvation. The Holy Spirit can empower those who are not yet in Christ, as is evidenced by the Gentiles in Acts 10.

Are you serious?

Peter was promising the Jews who were to repent and be baptized

the opportunity for

Prophecy? Healing? Tongues? Walking on water?

And you imagine those gifts are offered today

Acts 2:39 (NASB95) — 39 “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Your desperation is rather obvious.

 

[TomL]

I have indeed addressed this. Their hearts were cleansed by faith. They did not exhibit any faith before, or even when, the Spirit fell on them. Their faith was demonstrated when they submitted to Peter's command to be baptized. That is when they were saved.

There you go denying scripture once again

Acts 15:7–9 (NASB95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.


Note they were given the Spirit

further we read

Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”

The circumcision had received the spirit with no mention of them receiving mere empowerment.

Here also

Acts 15:1–8 (LEB) — 1 And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after there was no little strife and debate by Paul and Barnabas against them, they appointed Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this issue. 3 So they were sent on their way by the church, and passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, telling in detail the conversion of the Gentiles and bringing great joy to all the brothers. 4 And when they arrived in Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and reported all that God had done with them. 5 But some of those who had believed from the party of the Pharisees stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to observe the law of Moses!” 6 Both the apostles and the elders assembled to deliberate concerning this matter. 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us.

seems all the circumcised Jews there received the Spirit