He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[dwight92070]

You are so wrong. You will say anything and make up any rationalization to make it look like your Church of Christ doctrine is correct. But it's not. You must believe that Jesus was stupid. He did not make statements that were only half of the truth. When He said, "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.", He did not leave anything out, as you suggest. The statement stands alone. To know God and Jesus is eternal life. Water baptism was not left out. If He knew that baptism was also necessary to obtain eternal life, He would have said so. That's your twisting the truth of what Jesus said. When Jesus said, "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved.", here Jesus is making the path to salvation or eternal life even more clear. He is saying that if you enter into the fold of the sheep through Me, that is the same as knowing God and Jesus - you will be saved, you will have eternal life. Again, He left nothing out.
Once again, you misinterpret John 3:5, twisting Jesus' words to get the meaning you're after. There's not even a hint of water baptism there. "Born of water" obviously means "born of the flesh" as Jesus makes absolutely clear in verse 6. In fact, His teaching here negates your false doctrine. He's not saying that water baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God. He's saying that being born again, born of the Spirit is required to enter the kingdom of God.

Cornelius and his family received the Son and the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, so that disproves your false doctrine that you only receive them at baptism.
Ephesians 5:27 says nothing about water baptism.
Galatians 3:27 says "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" We know that Paul is not speaking of water baptism here because no good work saves anyone. Rather, he is speaking of the baptism into the body of Christ performed by the Holy Spirit "without hands". There's no water involved. This baptism is synonymous with salvation, being born again - it has nothing to do with water.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are so wrong. You will say anything and make up any rationalization to make it look like your Church of Christ doctrine is correct. But it's not. You must believe that Jesus was stupid. He did not make statements that were only half of the truth. When He said, "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.", He did not leave anything out, as you suggest. The statement stands alone. To know God and Jesus is eternal life. Water baptism was not left out.

I will not say just anything to prove a doctrine. If the doctrine were false, I would not stand behind it. I would not make anything up and risk the souls of those I love. Yes, knowing the only true God and Jesus (who is also God) is eternal life. But that statement does not tell us how we come to know God. It completely leaves out all the functional process by which we come to know God that are spelled out in other passages.

If He knew that baptism was also necessary to obtain eternal life, He would have said so. That's your twisting the truth of what Jesus said.

This passage does not mention baptism, that is correct. But it also does not mention repentance or confession of Christ Jesus, and both of those are also required before salvation is received.

When Jesus said, "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved.", here Jesus is making the path to salvation or eternal life even more clear. He is saying that if you enter into the fold of the sheep through Me, that is the same as knowing God and Jesus - you will be saved, you will have eternal life. Again, He left nothing out.

It completely leaves out the "how" of entering into Christ. Gal 3:27 says that we are clothed with Christ, ie: enter into Christ, through baptism.

Once again, you misinterpret John 3:5, twisting Jesus' words to get the meaning you're after. There's not even a hint of water baptism there. "Born of water" obviously means "born of the flesh" as Jesus makes absolutely clear in verse 6. In fact, His teaching here negates your false doctrine. He's not saying that water baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God. He's saying that being born again, born of the Spirit is required to enter the kingdom of God.

Not just born of the Spirit, but born of water also. And born of water does not reference back to natural birth from your mother. Both the water and the Spirit are looking at the REBIRTH into Christ.

Cornelius and his family received the Son and the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, so that disproves your false doctrine that you only receive them at baptism.

Cornelius did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit before he was baptized. The Spirit fell "on" him, and he received miraculous gifts of tongues and praise. But he was not yet saved at that point. He was not saved until he was born of water in baptism.

Ephesians 5:27 says nothing about water baptism.

I hit the wrong key, it is Eph 5:26 which says that we are sanctified and cleansed by the washing of water with the Word. This is baptism, in water obviously.

Galatians 3:27 says "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" We know that Paul is not speaking of water baptism here because no good work saves anyone.

Ahh, you are letting your presupposition show. "No good work saves anyone"? While true, this statement is being used by you to "prove" that there is no physical action that leads to receiving salvation, which is a false statement. There are physical actions that do LEAD TO receiving salvation: just one example is confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth (Rom 10:9-10). These actions that lead to receiving salvation are not "good works". They are not meritorious but are the obedience that leads to receiving His grace.

Rather, he is speaking of the baptism into the body of Christ performed by the Holy Spirit "without hands". There's no water involved. This baptism is synonymous with salvation, being born again - it has nothing to do with water.

Yes, it has everything to do with water, just as 1 Pet 3:21 says (along with many other passages also).

 

[dwight92070]

Yes, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, but please don't try to tell me that when you get baptized, you suddenly know Him. That is not how it works. When a baby is born, we know that he already recognizes the voice of his mother and father. He heard those voices while yet in his mother's womb. As the baby grows, he becomes more sensitive to those voices and starts to recognize others as well, maybe grandparents, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc.
So it is with knowing God - but with an eternal difference - as we grow and mature, we quickly recognize that this person is Himself eternal, and all knowing, and all powerful and all loving and all gracious and forgiving. He identifies Himself as a he, not a she. In all things He equates Himself with God. His words bring awe and comfort at the same time.
You don't get to really know another person unless you spend time with them, talk with them, and hear what they have to say. You observe how they live their lives and do things with them and they with you. You share your thoughts, fears, and desires with them and they with you.
When we are born again, we are like that newborn baby, knowing little but we recognize His voice, especially if our parents or other spiritually mature persons who know Him, teach us and read His word to us. Gradually we learn to feed ourselves spiritually through prayer and abiding in His word and fellowship with others in the body of Christ.

Jesus did tell us how we can enter into Christ and how we can know God and Him: by recognizing that He is the way, the truth, and the life. This is what the Bible calls faith in Christ and in God. He did not leave out the "how". We enter the fold of the sheep (the saved) by going through the door - Jesus Himself. He Himself is salvation, not water baptism, or any other work.

Of course "born of water" references back to physical birth, the very topic that Nicodemus brought up. That's the context. There's no other verse that says that water baptism is like being "born of water", so to take it that way here is mistaken. Water baptism represents burial of a dead body, but a baby in his mother's womb is alive, and was never dead. So what's being said here about natural birth cannot be interpreted as water baptism.
No person can be born again spiritually unless they have first been born naturally.
Paul says the same thing in 1 Cor. 15:46: "However the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy (born of water); the second man is from heaven (born of the Spirit)."
It is ludicrous to say that Cornelius was not saved and did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit before he was baptized. Peter even says that they received the Holy Spirit, "just as we did" before he ordered them to be baptized.

Ephesians 5:26 Paul is speaking symbolically about being cleansed through the washing of water by the Word, not water baptism. He said that husbands are to spiritually cleanse their wives through the word.

My "presupposition" is an axiom of scripture: no good work can save us and yes, baptism is a good work, so is confession.

We get clothed with Christ at the point of salvation, which is not the same point as baptism, which happens later.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, but please don't try to tell me that when you get baptized, you suddenly know Him. That is not how it works. When a baby is born, we know that he already recognizes the voice of his mother and father. He heard those voices while yet in his mother's womb. As the baby grows, he becomes more sensitive to those voices and starts to recognize others as well, maybe grandparents, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc.

There is a huge difference between knowing God and having an intimate relationship with Him. It is having a relationship with Him that is eternal life. Just knowing Him/knowing about Him is not eternal life. As we learn from Gal 4:9 ("But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God"), there is a difference. God is omniscient, so He "knows" everyone. But when we are saved we become known by Him (actually have a relationship with Him). It is in the relationship with Him that we receive eternal life. And as Gal 3:26 says, it is in baptism that we put on Christ (actually start the relationship).

So it is with knowing God - but with an eternal difference - as we grow and mature, we quickly recognize that this person is Himself eternal, and all knowing, and all powerful and all loving and all gracious and forgiving. He identifies Himself as a he, not a she. In all things He equates Himself with God. His words bring awe and comfort at the same time.
You don't get to really know another person unless you spend time with them, talk with them, and hear what they have to say. You observe how they live their lives and do things with them and they with you. You share your thoughts, fears, and desires with them and they with you.
When we are born again, we are like that newborn baby, knowing little but we recognize His voice, especially if our parents or other spiritually mature persons who know Him, teach us and read His word to us. Gradually we learn to feed ourselves spiritually through prayer and abiding in His word and fellowship with others in the body of Christ.

Just as an infant knows about its parents from their voice it hears while in the womb but it does not start a relationship with them until it is born, so too we can know about God for years, but we do not start a relationship with Him until we are born again in baptism.

Jesus did tell us how we can enter into Christ and how we can know God and Him: by recognizing that He is the way, the truth, and the life. This is what the Bible calls faith in Christ and in God. He did not leave out the "how". We enter the fold of the sheep (the saved) by going through the door - Jesus Himself. He Himself is salvation, not water baptism, or any other work.

Even the demons recognize that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but they are not saved, because they will not obey Him, they will not have faith in Him. Entering into the fold of the sheep is accomplished when we put on Christ in baptism.

Of course "born of water" references back to physical birth, the very topic that Nicodemus brought up. That's the context. There's no other verse that says that water baptism is like being "born of water", so to take it that way here is mistaken. Water baptism represents burial of a dead body, but a baby in his mother's womb is alive, and was never dead. So what's being said here about natural birth cannot be interpreted as water baptism.

Nicodemus does not set the context here, Jesus does. Nicodemus was in error when he spoke of natural birth. Jesus corrected him when He spoke of rebirth by water and Spirit.

No person can be born again spiritually unless they have first been born naturally.

Obviously, so the water here is clearly not referring to natural birth. If a person was not born naturally (whether by normal or C-section), then the person was not "born" and so cannot be "reborn". Jesus is speaking of rebirth, not natural birth.

Paul says the same thing in 1 Cor. 15:46: "However the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy (born of water);

Now whose adding to Scripture? You are putting water here where it does not belong.

the second man is from heaven (born of the Spirit)."

The rebirth Jesus is speaking of is by both water and Spirit. Not just rebirth by the Spirit.

It is ludicrous to say that Cornelius was not saved and did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit before he was baptized. Peter even says that they received the Holy Spirit, "just as we did" before he ordered them to be baptized.

You said yourself in https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/acts-22-16-pauls-salvation.1888/ that Peter and the rest of the 12 had already received the indwelling of the Spirit before Pentecost. Since they had already received the indwelling, it could not have been the indwelling that they received when the Spirit came upon them in fire. All they received on Pentecost was the miraculous gift of tongues and praise, which is the same gift Cornelius received. Cornelius received the indwelling when he was baptized into Christ shortly after the Spirit came on him in fire.

Ephesians 5:26 Paul is speaking symbolically about being cleansed through the washing of water by the Word, not water baptism. He said that husbands are to spiritually cleanse their wives through the word.

Paul is not talking about marriage here. Marriage is the example he is using to depict our relationship with Jesus. Jesus washes the Church (His bride) through water with the Word (water and the Spirit).

My "presupposition" is an axiom of scripture: no good work can save us and yes, baptism is a good work, so is confession.

So you are saying that Scripture contains a lie. Because Rom 10:9-10 says clearly that the physical action of confessing Jesus with the mouth results in salvation. There is no ambiguity here. This is clearly a physical action (speaking with the mouth), and it clearly is required before salvation is received because the result of the verbal confession is the reception of salvation. So clearly there are multiple types or classifications of "works". Good works are works that flow out from having already received salvation. But there are some works that lead to/result in receiving salvation in the first place.

We get clothed with Christ at the point of salvation, which is not the same point as baptism, which happens later.

That is not what Scripture says. And I trust Scripture much more than I trust any mere human.

 

[dwight92070]

Actually scripture says exactly that:

Isaiah 61:10 "For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness."

So obviously you are trusting mere humans and not the Scripture.

 

[dwight92070]

Luke 7:36-50 This woman was standing behind Jesus at His feet weeping, wetting His feet with her tears, and wiping them with her hair - kissing His feet and anointing them with a vial of perfume. What was Jesus' response? He said, "Your sins have been forgiven." She was saved right there and then! No baptism was necessary for her salvation. But was she really saved? Verse 50 "And He said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace.' " How was she saved? By baptism? No, by faith. No doubt the apostles baptized her after this experience.

 

[Doug Brents]

Actually scripture says exactly that:

Isaiah 61:10 "For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness."

So obviously you are trusting mere humans and not the Scripture.

That verse does not tell us when you how He wraps us in robes of righteousness. It only tells us that He does.
But Gal 3:26-27 does tell us when He wraps us in robes of righteousness. When we are baptized into Him.

Luke 7:36-50 This woman was standing behind Jesus at His feet weeping, wetting His feet with her tears, and wiping them with her hair - kissing His feet and anointing them with a vial of perfume. What was Jesus' response? He said, "Your sins have been forgiven." She was saved right there and then! No baptism was necessary for her salvation. But was she really saved? Verse 50 "And He said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace.' " How was she saved? By baptism? No, by faith. No doubt the apostles baptized her after this experience.

This happened before His death. As Matt 9:6 says, Jesus had the authority to forgive sin at His sole discretion while He was a man. He could change His Will (last will and testament) any way He chose up until He died. But at His death His Will was set and cannot be changed, as Heb 9:16-17 tells us.

 

[dwight92070]

Sure it does. He wraps us in His righteous at our salvation - "the garments of salvation".

Jesus said "Your faith has saved you;", so we know that not only did Jesus forgive her sins, but He saved her at the same time - without being baptized. Then after that we can assume that the disciples baptized her, as they did all new disciple. John 4:1
It doesn't matter that it was before His death or not. Either way, men were saved the same way - by grace through faith. And Jesus' apostles did baptize new disciple's. The apostles baptized new believers before His death and after His death. The baptism did not save them in either case.

 

[360watt]

I am not do sure baptism in the Holy Spirit is a salvation thing.

Baptism by Holy Spirit and fire was a one off event that happened to the disciples at Pentecost.

The other occurrences in Acts were mostly of already converted believers gathered, who received empowerment from the Holy Spirit. They already had the sealing of the Holy Spirit in their souls. Acts 19 is a prime example of a group of disciples who had believed. They received the Holy Spirit after water baptism.

That is not salvation. That's empowerment.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure it does. He wraps us in His righteous at our salvation - "the garments of salvation".

Again, that is a statement of fact, not function. HOW does He wrap us in His righteousness? WHEN does He wrap us in His righteousness?
That is not answered in Isa 61:10, but it is in Gal 3:26-27.

Jesus said "Your faith has saved you;", so we know that not only did Jesus forgive her sins, but He saved her at the same time - without being baptized. Then after that we can assume that the disciples baptized her, as they did all new disciple. John 4:1

And again, that happened before His death while He could still change His Will and forgive sin for whatever demonstration of faith He choose. But we live after His death, so His will is set and we cannot change it. We must adhere to what He says is required.

It doesn't matter that it was before His death or not. Either way, men were saved the same way - by grace through faith. And Jesus' apostles did baptize new disciple's. The apostles baptized new believers before His death and after His death. The baptism did not save them in either case.

It matters greatly that it was before His death versus after His death. Before His death He could accept any demonstration of faith He chose. But after His death, only what He instructed as the acceptable demonstration of faith is acceptable. Remember, faith is not a mental only exercise. It REQUIRES action to be real, alive, and effective.

 

[dwight92070]

Gal.3:26-27 has nothing to do with water baptism, but everything to do with salvation before one is baptized. You're wrong again. He accepted faith alone for salvation before His death and He accepts faith alone for salvation now after His death. The idea that now He requires certain works for salvation that He did not require before, such as confession and baptism, is totally fabricated by the Church of Christ and persons like you. You don't trust scripture, you trust the false doctrines of demons and men, which twist the truth of how one gets saved.

Think about it. How is it that men were saved one way under the Old Covenant, but now they're saved in a different way under the New Covenant?
In fact, the way of salvation has not changed since Creation. Abel was saved by faith, Enoch also, Abraham also, even Moses was not saved by keeping the Law which he brought to Israel, he too was saved by faith.

 

[Doug Brents]

Gal.3:26-27 has nothing to do with water baptism, but everything to do with salvation before one is baptized. You're wrong again. He accepted faith alone for salvation before His death and He accepts faith alone for salvation now after His death.

Man is not saved by faith alone (James 2:24). Without the actions that God has said result in salvation, faith is dead, and useless, and meaningless.

The idea that now He requires certain works for salvation that He did not require before, such as confession and baptism, is totally fabricated by the Church of Christ and persons like you.

No, that is not fabricated by man. It is stated explicitly in Scripture, but you refuse to acknowledge it.
Paul tells us that it is by way of baptism that one gets “into Christ” (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27). Unless one is prepared to say that one is saved “outside of Christ”, then one must admit that it is a condition that must be met in order to be saved. Baptism is said to be “for the remission of sins” and to “wash your sins away” (Acts 2:38; 22:16). Unless one is prepared to say that one is saved without their sins being forgiven, then they must admit that baptism is a condition of salvation.

You don't trust scripture, you trust the false doctrines of demons and men, which twist the truth of how one gets saved.

I do trust Scripture, for it is the Word of God. It is you I do not trust. It is your words I do not believe in. You contradict Scripture, and ignore the clear teaching of the Lord.

Think about it. How is it that men were saved one way under the Old Covenant, but now they're saved in a different way under the New Covenant?
In fact, the way of salvation has not changed since Creation. Abel was saved by faith, Enoch also, Abraham also, even Moses was not saved by keeping the Law which he brought to Israel, he too was saved by faith.

Of course we are saved by faith. But you have a wrong understanding of what faith is. Faith is NOT just a mental exercise. Faith requires action, or it is not really faith.

 

[dwight92070]

Once again, you misquote scripture. James 2:24 does not say "Man is not saved by faith alone." It says "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." "Justified" in the Greek means "to show to be righteous", to "declare righteous". So a person is shown to be righteous by faith plus works. His works demonstrates his faith. James is not talking about salvation alone. James is speaking of one who is already saved (by faith alone) - proving that by his works.

 

[mailmandan]

Once again, you misquote scripture. James 2:24 does not say "Man is not saved by faith alone." It says "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." "Justified" in the Greek means "to show to be righteous", to "declare righteous". So a person is shown to be righteous by faith plus works. His works demonstrates his faith. James is not talking about salvation alone. James is speaking of one who is already saved (by faith alone) - proving that by his works.

Yes, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence  of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[dwight92070]

"God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." 1 Cor. 1:21
Those who believe the message of Jesus are saved. Not those who are baptized - works don't save anyone.

1 Thess. 2:15-16 " ... They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all people, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; "
Notice Paul did not say, "hindering us from baptizing the Gentiles, so that they may be saved."

1 Cor. 15:1-2 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

So the Corinthians were saved by receiving the gospel which Paul preached.

But what was the gospel message that Paul preached? Did it require baptism to be saved?

Well, Paul plainly tells us the gospel message that he preached:

1 Cor. 15 Verses 3-4 "For I delivered to you, as of first importance (If baptism was required in order to be saved, then surely he would have mentioned it here, because he explains what is "of first importance") what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, ..."

The gospel message that Paul preached to the Corinthians, by which they were saved, did not include getting baptized in water.

Nobody is knocking baptism in water, but that's not what saves you.

 

[Affinity]

First off, the OT was fulfilled, and so is no longer applicable to those living after Jesus died.
Second, Deut 4:2 is only applicable to the Law which Moses was speaking to the nation of Israel. It is not applicable to the NT.
Third, I am not adding to, nor am I taking away from, any NT commandment. On the contrary, I am teaching exactly what Scripture says. It is those who claim "belief only" that are taking away from Scripture. They ignore direct statements of God, explain away clear teaching from God, and prove that God is not really their Lord by defying His direct commands.

“Those who accepted his message were baptized…” —Acts 2:41

First You accept the gospel once you are saved then you get baptized.

Baptism is often described as an outward sign of an inward change. It is a public testimony that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Your baptism powerfully proclaims what God has done, and is doing, in your life. In addition, as a follower of Jesus, you are publicly saying that you join with Christians from around the world who are unified by faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection.

 

[Doug Brents]

Once again, you misquote scripture. James 2:24 does not say "Man is not saved by faith alone." It says "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." "Justified" in the Greek means "to show to be righteous", to "declare righteous". So a person is shown to be righteous by faith plus works. His works demonstrates his faith. James is not talking about salvation alone. James is speaking of one who is already saved (by faith alone) - proving that by his works.

Yes, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence  of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

You both make a good argument, and I would happily agree with you. But that understanding does not fit with the rest of Scripture.
1 Pet 3:21 says that baptism in water saves us.
Col 2:11-14 says that it is during baptism that the Spirit removes our sins.
Rom 6:1-7 says that it is during baptism that we die to sin and are united with Jesus' death and resurrection.
So it is during baptism that not only are we "shown to be righteous" but we are actually made to be righteous. It is during baptism that we put on Jesus Christ (Gal 3:26-27). Without the evidence of faith, faith is not real and has no value or effectiveness.

"God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." 1 Cor. 1:21
Those who believe the message of Jesus are saved. Not those who are baptized - works don't save anyone.

If you don't obey the message, then you don't really believe it. The message carries with it a call to action (repentance, baptism, and a life lived in imitation of Jesus). If the call to action is ignored, bypassed, left out, or overlooked, then the message is not really believed and it has no impact on the life of the hearer.

1 Thess. 2:15-16 " ... They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all people, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; "
Notice Paul did not say, "hindering us from baptizing the Gentiles, so that they may be saved."

1 Cor. 15:1-2 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

So the Corinthians were saved by receiving the gospel which Paul preached.

But what was the gospel message that Paul preached? Did it require baptism to be saved?

Well, Paul plainly tells us the gospel message that he preached:

1 Cor. 15 Verses 3-4 "For I delivered to you, as of first importance (If baptism was required in order to be saved, then surely he would have mentioned it here, because he explains what is "of first importance") what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, ..."

The gospel message that Paul preached to the Corinthians, by which they were saved, did not include getting baptized in water.

Yes, the Gospel does include getting baptized in water. The foundation of our faith is in Jesus' life, death, burial, and resurrection. But that is not all that the Gospel includes. The Gospel (good news) is that because of the foundation, He has given us the opportunity to receive eternal life in Him. And we receive that eternal life in Him through obedience to the Gospel. And that obedience includes repentance, confession of Him as Lord and baptism.

Nobody is knocking baptism in water, but that's not what saves you.

Of course no one is knocking water baptism, because clearly it is a command of Jesus (the last command He gave before He ascended back into Heaven)(Matt 28:19). But what you are disagreeing with is that it is the point at which we are saved. Baptism is not the power of our salvation, or the mechanism of our salvation, but it is the act during which the Holy Spirit removes our sins and saves us.

 

[Doug Brents]

“Those who accepted his message were baptized…” —Acts 2:41

First You accept the gospel once you are saved then you get baptized.

Just accepting that the Gospel is true does not save.

Baptism is often described as an outward sign of an inward change. It is a public testimony that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Your baptism powerfully proclaims what God has done, and is doing, in your life. In addition, as a follower of Jesus, you are publicly saying that you join with Christians from around the world who are unified by faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Just because it is "often described" this way, does not make it the truth. An often repeated lie is still a lie.

 

[dwight92070]

A parallel to Mark 16:16 could be:

He who has entered into a wedding covenant with his wife by exchanging vows and has consumated their relationship - is married.

He who has not entered into a wedding covenant with his wife by exchanging vows - is not married.

So marriage happens when a man and a woman exchange vows - until death. The consumation of the couple's marriage, although commanded by God, occurs only after their vows are given, i.e. after they are already married.

Likewise, salvation happens when a person enters into a covenant with the Lord - until death. Water baptism also is commanded by the Lord, but only after he has entered into that New Covenant relationship with Him.

Consumation and baptism are both commanded by the Lord, ideally the first act of obedience in a marriage covenant and the first act of obedience after entering into the New Covenant relationship with Jesus - salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

A parallel to Mark 16:16 could be:

He who has entered into a wedding covenant with his wife by exchanging vows and has consumated their relationship - is married.

He who has not entered into a wedding covenant with his wife by exchanging vows - is not married.

So marriage happens when a man and a woman exchange vows - until death. The consumation of the couple's marriage, although commanded by God, occurs only after their vows are given, i.e. after they are already married.

Likewise, salvation happens when a person enters into a covenant with the Lord - until death. Water baptism also is commanded by the Lord, but only after he has entered into that New Covenant relationship with Him.

Consumation and baptism are both commanded by the Lord, ideally the first act of obedience in a marriage covenant and the first act of obedience after entering into the New Covenant relationship with Jesus - salvation.

That is not how the Bible portrays it. Rom 6:1-7 says that we enter into the covenant with Jesus when we die with Him "in baptism". We do not die with Him when we "believe" in Him. We do not die with Him when we confess Him. We do not die with Him when we repent of our sins. We die with Him when we are baptized into His death, and that is when the Holy Spirit resurrects us.