Harpadzo, better make sure you're ready

[The Rogue Tomato]

How many other books on the topic have you read?

Many. Very many. I even read 1994 by Harold Camping, one of the stupidest books I've ever read. It used numerology to predict Jesus would return in 1994. Pretty sure he was wrong about that.

I suggest you read "Prewrath Rapture of the Church" by Marv Rosenthal. It cemented my understanding of the chronology of the last days as I had understood them from scripture. It's not a perfect book, but it nailed a lot of facts from scripture. If you are truly open to the truth, you may find it as useful as I did.

Well...
The easiest way to deal with that is...
If you genuinely believe that I'm insulting...
Stop talking to me.

Not the most effective, but for you, the easiest.

Before you go, I want to ask you to read the following passages.
1- 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, specifically vss 6-7.
2- Psalms 141:5
3- Proverbs 27:5-6.

After you read those and consider them, decide your response.

Grace and Truth be with you in Christ.

Proverbs 12:16

 

[SteveB]

Many. Very many. I even read 1994 by Harold Camping, one of the stupidest books I've ever read. It used numerology to predict Jesus would return in 1994. Pretty sure he was wrong about that.

I suggest you read "Prewrath Rapture of the Church" by Marv Rosenthal. It cemented my understanding of the chronology of the last days as I had understood them from scripture. It's not a perfect book, but it nailed a lot of facts from scripture. If you are truly open to the truth, you may find it as useful as I did.

How do you know that I haven't already seen the truth?
Seems like you have to assume that only people who agree with you and your views were taught by the Holy Spirit and we who trust in Jesus were lied to.

Who are you believing?
The teachers, or scripture?

Proverbs 12:16

Pro 12:16 WEB A fool shows his annoyance the same day, but one who overlooks an insult is prudent.

Yet you're clearly not overlooking what you believe is an insult.

I think I've been insulted by a number of people here, but I don't complain about it.
I simply cease engaging because I didn't come here to argue with people.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How do you know that I haven't already seen the truth?
Seems like you have to assume that only people who agree with you and your views were taught by the Holy Spirit and we who trust in Jesus were lied to.

Who are you believing?
The teachers, or scripture?

Scripture. Re-read what I wrote.

Pro 12:16 WEB A fool shows his annoyance the same day, but one who overlooks an insult is prudent.

Yet you're clearly not overlooking what you believe is an insult.

I think I've been insulted by a number of people here, but I don't complain about it.
I simply cease engaging because I didn't come here to argue with people.

I'm conversing with you, aren't I?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How do you know that I haven't already seen the truth?
Seems like you have to assume that only people who agree with you and your views were taught by the Holy Spirit and we who trust in Jesus were lied to.

If you're open to the truth, you will read things that don't agree with you to test them. Being convinced you already know the truth means you won't entertain the possibility you're wrong by reading something contrary to your conclusions. You do you, if that's what you want.

 

[SteveB]

Many. Very many. I even read 1994 by Harold Camping, one of the stupidest books I've ever read. It used numerology to predict Jesus would return in 1994. Pretty sure he was wrong about that.

I suggest you read "Prewrath Rapture of the Church" by Marv Rosenthal. It cemented my understanding of the chronology of the last days as I had understood them from scripture. It's not a perfect book, but it nailed a lot of facts from scripture. If you are truly open to the truth, you may find it as useful as I did.



Proverbs 12:16

I just got done listening to a study on Hebrews 11:5-7.
Near the end of it, I was reminded that it's not critical for me to focus my efforts on matters I learned a long time ago.
It's important that I focus on Jesus and what I'm being taught right now.

Hebrews 13:9 tells us to focus on the Grace of God.

Titus 2:11-14 tells us that the Grace of God is teaching us specific things.
1- learn to live godly.
2- be excited about the coming of Jesus.
3- he redeemed us to be excited about doing good.
In verse 15, we're told- contend for these!

In John 1:14, we read that Jesus is full of Grace and Truth.

In 2 Peter 1:2-4, we learn that as we increase our knowledge and experiences with Jesus and God, we will increase our experience of Grace and Peace.

In vss 5-8, we read that we're to give ourselves over to diligence in increasing our faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. It finishes that with-- if you do these things you will never be barren or fruitless in the knowledge of God and Jesus.

It continues on through to vs 13.

In Luke 21:36, Jesus actually gives us the wherewithal to be ready for whenever the harpadzo occurs.

Pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape f that's coming on the earth and to stand before the Son of Man.

My focus is no longer on the when, and is now on the- what do I need to know and do to ensure that I'm ready when it does occur?


Based on what I read in scripture.... we really do not want to be left behind.
It'll be a nightmare beyond comprehension and Jesus tells us that!

Learn to focus on what you are instructed to do.

Grace is my goal.

Paul obviously made a big deal of Grace.

As do the writers of the Bible.

Joh 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only born Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:16-17 WEB 16 From his fullness we all received grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses. Grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.


Grace isn't merely the unmerited favor of God. Nor is it just God's Riches at Christ's Expense.

Grace is active and aggressively teaching, guiding, directing, .... us into the Life of God in Christ.


Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I just got done listening to a study on Hebrews 11:5-7.
Near the end of it, I was reminded that it's not critical for me to focus my efforts on matters I learned a long time ago.
It's important that I focus on Jesus and what I'm being taught right now.

It's always good to test your beliefs by reading things that don't agree with you. You might find out that you're wrong. Ironically, I read "Things To Come" because I thought it would back up what I thought was the truth about the rapture. Turns out it made me reconsider what I thought I learned long ago.

Hebrews 13:9 tells us to focus on the Grace of God.

Titus 2:11-14 tells us that the Grace of God is teaching us specific things.
1- learn to live godly.
2- be excited about the coming of Jesus.
3- he redeemed us to be excited about doing good.
In verse 15, we're told- contend for these!

I agree 100%.

In John 1:14, we read that Jesus is full of Grace and Truth.

In 2 Peter 1:2-4, we learn that as we increase our knowledge and experiences with Jesus and God, we will increase our experience of Grace and Peace.

In vss 5-8, we read that we're to give ourselves over to diligence in increasing our faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. It finishes that with-- if you do these things you will never be barren or fruitless in the knowledge of God and Jesus.

It continues on through to vs 13.

In Luke 21:36, Jesus actually gives us the wherewithal to be ready for whenever the harpadzo occurs.

Pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape f that's coming on the earth and to stand before the Son of Man.

My focus is no longer on the when, and is now on the- what do I need to know and do to ensure that I'm ready when it does occur?

That's admirable and I agree. The only place where I differ is that if the pre-wrath rapture is correct (and I believe it is), then a lot of pre-trib believes are going to be in for a shock. If one really wants to be prepared, one must be prepared for things not going the way you assume they will.

Based on what I read in scripture.... we really do not want to be left behind.
It'll be a nightmare beyond comprehension and Jesus tells us that!

Learn to focus on what you are instructed to do.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Revelation 13:10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

It will take patience and faith if one goes through the great tribulation. And one's faith during that kind of tribulation is a witness to others. Relying on Jesus to make a special secret trip to rescue you from trouble is cowardice and lack of faith.

Grace is my goal.

Paul obviously made a big deal of Grace.

As do the writers of the Bible.

Joh 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only born Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:16-17 WEB 16 From his fullness we all received grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses. Grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.


Grace isn't merely the unmerited favor of God. Nor is it just God's Riches at Christ's Expense.

Grace is active and aggressively teaching, guiding, directing, .... us into the Life of God in Christ.


Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Very good.

 

[SteveB]

It's always good to test your beliefs by reading things that don't agree with you.

testing is one thing.
opening yourself up to unreasonable doubts previously resolved is foolishness.

You might find out that you're wrong.

which is exactly why I pray and read daily.

Ironically, I read "Things To Come" because I thought it would back up what I thought was the truth about the rapture. Turns out it made me reconsider what I thought I learned long ago.

Makes me wonder.... did you really understand what you thought you learned long ago?

I agree 100%.



That's admirable and I agree. The only place where I differ is that if the pre-wrath rapture is correct (and I believe it is), then a lot of pre-trib believes are going to be in for a shock. If one really wants to be prepared, one must be prepared for things not going the way you assume they will.

Well, it is written that an apostasy will take place.
I can only learn to focus on the truth, and encourage others to do likewise.

My concern for this whole thing would be- people who think it'll be later will get lazy, and not focus on Jesus. The old- my lord delays his coming-- thought that Jesus mentioned.
Those who are hoping for a pre-trib will be less likely to give in to a delayed event.
Thus, my emphasis on Luke 21:34-36.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Revelation 13:10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I find myself wondering why you would think that this is talking about the church and not tribulation saints.
there's a completely different group of people who trust Jesus during the tribulation period.
they'll wear white robes.
the bride of Jesus will wear white linen.
Look closer at the seemingly insignificant items.
They're equally important.

It will take patience and faith if one goes through the great tribulation. And one's faith during that kind of tribulation is a witness to others. Relying on Jesus to make a special secret trip to rescue you from trouble is cowardice and lack of faith.

Indeed.
If you can avoid that period of history, would you really want to remain here?

Very good.

 

[TomL]

Articles/Books/websites written by people who have a lot more knowledge, education and experience than either one of us.

So you follow them blindly. Are you unaware there are other just as educated who have a different view? That being a good Berean you should examine all that is stated to see if it comports to the Bible?

Since you clearly despise knowledge and understanding, I'd say mine.

Pro 1:7 WEB The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge, but the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.

Absurd. I am fully aware of the Pretrib Premil position. I was taught it, and it was by examining different views and testing their fidelity to the words of scripture I rejected it

Blindly picking a side without testing it is not how one goes about gaining scriptural understanding

and saying go read what they say over there is not biblical argumentation or anyway to discuss a topic.

 

[SteveB]

So you follow them blindly.

Why, is that what you need to feel justified in your views?
You're acting like you're the only follower of Jesus to have ever lived.
No actually.
I learned the whole realm of eschatology 45 years ago and have been learning to follow Jesus ever since.
As i find newer materials that didn't exist back when, i save it for future reference to give to people like you so i don't have to waste time arguing with them about matters that are tertiary when I'm seeking to learn and understand what the primary are.

Are you unaware there are other just as educated who have a different view?

that would be convenient for you wouldn't it.
what do you think are the most important elements of following Jesus?
do you think that sitting around on internet forums and berating people who think differently than you, and yet are focusing on more important matters is an effective use of the time God has given you?

That being a good Berean you should examine all that is stated to see if it comports to the Bible?

Wow... now I'm wondering if you have a clue what this means.
You have been repeatedly given numerous articles, resources, biblical references and descriptions, detailing the narrative, as well as asked an innumerable amount of questions, but instead of "being a good Berean" and digging in to the work and research to "see if those things are so", you mocked, chided, derided, and disdained everything I provided you.
You my dear fellow human being are not someone whom I'd consider a reliable source of information.

Absurd.

so you cl

I am fully aware of the Pretrib Premil position.

I wouldn't know. You've never actually provided a coherent description to demonstrate that you actually understood what it is.
you keep telling me what you think i believe, but are always out on the perimeter, missing key elements. I've worked to clean up the points you've mistook, but you disdained them, so it's pretty clear to me that you don't actually understand Pretrib premillenial dispensationalism.
and you know something.... I'm not sure if you even want to.
you clearly expect me to cowtow to your expressed views, and refuse to pay attention to what I'm describing.

I was taught it, and it was by examining different views and testing their fidelity to the words of scripture I rejected it

Which demonstrates you never actually understood what you were taught.

Blindly picking a side without testing it is not how one goes about gaining scriptural understanding

So you think that your blindness is the blindness of others?
Why would you think that because you don't understand, others couldn't possibly understand?

and saying go read what they say over there is not biblical argumentation or anyway to discuss a topic.

Actually, it's part of the Berean activity, described in Acts 17:11, and what Paul told the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.

Furthermore, what part of the Bible says we're to argue?

I read

2Ti 2:23-26 WEB 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife. 24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

And as it's clear neither one of us is apt to teach, I leave teaching to those who are more skilled and experienced at it. Thus, the articles, websites and content provided.

 

[TomL]

Why, is that what you need to feel justified in your views?
You're acting like you're the only follower of Jesus to have ever lived.
No actually.
I learned the whole realm of eschatology 45 years ago and have been learning to follow Jesus ever since.
As i find newer materials that didn't exist back when, i save it for future reference to give to people like you so i don't have to waste time arguing with them about matters that are tertiary when I'm seeking to learn and understand what the primary are.




that would be convenient for you wouldn't it.
what do you think are the most important elements of following Jesus?
do you think that sitting around on internet forums and berating people who think differently than you, and yet are focusing on more important matters is an effective use of the time God has given you?


Wow... now I'm wondering if you have a clue what this means.
You have been repeatedly given numerous articles, resources, biblical references and descriptions, detailing the narrative, as well as asked an innumerable amount of questions, but instead of "being a good Berean" and digging in to the work and research to "see if those things are so", you mocked, chided, derided, and disdained everything I provided you.
You my dear fellow human being are not someone whom I'd consider a reliable source of information.


so you cl

I wouldn't know. You've never actually provided a coherent description to demonstrate that you actually understood what it is.
you keep telling me what you think i believe, but are always out on the perimeter, missing key elements. I've worked to clean up the points you've mistook, but you disdained them, so it's pretty clear to me that you don't actually understand Pretrib premillenial dispensationalism.
and you know something.... I'm not sure if you even want to.
you clearly expect me to cowtow to your expressed views, and refuse to pay attention to what I'm describing.

Which demonstrates you never actually understood what you were taught.


So you think that your blindness is the blindness of others?
Why would you think that because you don't understand, others couldn't possibly understand?

Actually, it's part of the Berean activity, described in Acts 17:11, and what Paul told the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.

Furthermore, what part of the Bible says we're to argue?

I read

2Ti 2:23-26 WEB 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife. 24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

And as it's clear neither one of us is apt to teach, I leave teaching to those who are more skilled and experienced at it. Thus, the articles, websites and content provided.

Seriously you have not posted a single verse which shows a pre trib rapture

You have ignored scripture which places it at the second coming and ignored verses which show the elect, the saved, either in or coming out of the tribulation but not one which actually mentions a rapture as a means to escape the tribulation

Your response of go to such and such website does not address the order of the catching up seen in scripture or any of my objections

 

[SteveB]

Seriously you have not posted a single verse which shows a pre trib rapture

You have ignored scripture which places it at the second coming and ignored verses which show the elect, the saved, either in or coming out of the tribulation but not one which actually mentions a rapture as a means to escape the tribulation

Your response of go to such and such website does not address the order of the catching up seen in scripture or any of my objections

Have a nice life Tom.

 

[TomL]

Have a nice life Tom.

You also.

If you ever want to address my objections let me know.

 

[SteveB]

You also.

If you ever want to address my objections let me know.

I have.
You disdain them, and reject them offhand, without answering them.

So, why would I waste my time arguing with a dead horse?

Sermon: The Great Disappearance | From Dr. David Jeremiah’s current series “The Great Disappearance.” Watch the full sermon on our website. | By Turning Point with Dr. David JeremiahFacebook

From Dr. David Jeremiah’s current series “The Great Disappearance.” Watch the full sermon on our website.

www.facebook.com

 

[TomL]

I have.
You disdain them, and reject them offhand, without answering them.

So, why would I waste my time arguing with a dead horse?

Sermon: The Great Disappearance | From Dr. David Jeremiah’s current series “The Great Disappearance.” Watch the full sermon on our website. | By Turning Point with Dr. David JeremiahFacebook

From Dr. David Jeremiah’s current series “The Great Disappearance.” Watch the full sermon on our website.

www.facebook.com

Sorry go to this website is not addressing my objections

If you want to address them, then address them here where they were made

 

[SteveB]

Sorry go to this website is not addressing my objections

If you want to address them, then address them here where they were made

Well, at least it cannot be said that you aren't filled with self-justification, and excuses overflowing.

 

[TomL]

Well, at least it cannot be said that you aren't filled with self-justification, and excuses overflowing.

It seems you have all kinds of methods to avoid addressing objections

Starting withgo read this book, go to this website, to accusing others when you are making excuses as to why you will not deal with objections.

And all this without a shred of evidence they are addressing the objections either

 

[SteveB]

It seems you have all kinds of methods to avoid addressing objections

If your objections actually had basis, you would have been johnny-on-the-spot with answering my questions.
If your objections actually had basis, you would have been all over reading the resources I'd provided, and answered each point.
But, instead, you refused, and ignored my questions, dismissed the materials I provided.
So, you yourself made your objections irrelevant.

Starting withgo read this book, go to this website,

And? It's my op. Or are you telling me that I'm not allowed to post my views, and supporting resources?
are you telling me that the only way I'm allowed to post is if i walk in lock-step with your views?

to accusing others when you are making excuses as to why you will not deal with objections.

Thank you for your response here.
it's actually quite impressive how you can dismiss the responses given you, and then blame me for your failure to address the resources given.

And all this without a shred of evidence they are addressing the objections either

That's the perfect example that you never actually understood what you're talking about.
You are not someone who actually wants to engage in dialog. You only want to control the discussion. I can get that from atheists. Not interested.
Thank you.

 

[Johann]

If your objections actually had basis, you would have been johnny-on-the-spot with answering my questions.
If your objections actually had basis, you would have been all over reading the resources I'd provided, and answered each point.
But, instead, you refused, and ignored my questions, dismissed the materials I provided.
So, you yourself made your objections irrelevant.

And? It's my op. Or are you telling me that I'm not allowed to post my views, and supporting resources?
are you telling me that the only way I'm allowed to post is if i walk in lock-step with your views?



Thank you for your response here.
it's actually quite impressive how you can dismiss the responses given you, and then blame me for your failure to address the resources given.


That's the perfect example that you never actually understood what you're talking about.
You are not someone who actually wants to engage in dialog. You only want to control the discussion. I can get that from atheists. Not interested.
Thank you.

@TomL is hovering brother-waking for you to make a move, you do realize you don't have to respond to him?
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

 

[TomL]

If your objections actually had basis, you would have been johnny-on-the-spot with answering my questions.
If your objections actually had basis, you would have been all over reading the resources I'd provided, and answered each point.
But, instead, you refused, and ignored my questions, dismissed the materials I provided.
So, you yourself made your objections irrelevant.

Sorry that is nonsense

Read this read that is not answering objections.
If you have access to those those resources so why don't you do the work and post how you think those resources address my objections instead of trying to send me on a wild goose chase.

In any case I quoted scripture and you refuse to deal with it

And? It's my op. Or are you telling me that I'm not allowed to post my views, and supporting resources?
are you telling me that the only way I'm allowed to post is if i walk in lock-step with your views?

you can post whatever you want but if I post scripture by way of rebuttal, sending me on a wild goose chase is not answering those objections

aside from which if you post something the onus is on you to support it not on me to hunt for answers which may not exist for you

Thank you for your response here.
it's actually quite impressive how you can dismiss the responses given you, and then blame me for your failure to address the resources given.

What responses?

You did not post a single verse which actually mention a pretrib rapture seven years before Christs second advent


You did not address the fact the only verse which actually mentions a rapture has it transpiring at the second advent along with the resurrection of the dead

and you also did not address two verses which either show saints in the tribulation or coming from out of it having been slain.

In other words you had zero proof and no answers to objections

 

[TomL]

@TomL is hovering brother-waking for you to make a move, you do realize you don't have to respond to him?
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

But he did in fact so choose and I in turn chose to respond showing he has zero proof to provide and no answers for the objections put to him.