How did God view the Atonement ?

The early church fathers didn’t teach it either
I can prove you wrong right here-the DID teach PSA-but not as in-depth as in this century.

Dogmatic History of the Doctrine of the Atonement
Embroiled as they were in debates concerning the person of
Christ, the Church Fathers devoted little time to reflection upon
what later theologians were to call the work of Christ (e.g., his
achieving atonement). No ecumenical council ever pronounced
on the subject of the atonement, leaving the Church without
conciliar guidance. When the Church Fathers did mention the
atonement, their comments were brief and for the most part
unincisive.

The remarks of the Fathers on the atonement tend to reflect the
multiplicity and diversity of the NT motifs that they had inherited
from the biblical authors (Mitros 1967). Eusebius, for example,
wrote:


The Lamb of God ... was chastised on our behalf, and suffered
a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the
multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness
of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to
Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were

due to us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being
made a curse for us. And what is that but the price of our souls? And
so the oracle says in our person: “By his stripes we were healed,” and
“The Lord delivered him for our sins.”
(Demonstration of the Gospel 10.1)

Echoing Isaiah 53 and Gal 3.13, Eusebius employs the motifs of
sacrifice, vicarious suffering, penal substitution, satisfaction of
divine justice, and ransom price. Similar sentiments were
expressed by Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Cyril
of Alexandria, and others (Rivière 1909).


At the same time, the Fathers portrayed Christ’s death as
a tremendous victory won over Satan, a view of the atonement
that has come to be known as the Christus Victor theory (Aulén
1969). Modern scholars have tended to focus on this facet of the
Fathers’ teaching, doubtless because of its peculiarity and
curiosity.

2.1 Christus Victor Theory
The so-called Christus Victor theory of the atonement persisted for
about 900 years, from Irenaeus and Origen until the time of
Anselm. According to this viewpoint, the sacrifice of Christ’s life
served to deliver mankind from bondage to Satan and from the
corruption and death that are the consequences of sin. The Fathers
sometimes interpreted Jesus’s ransom saying very literally to mean
that Christ’s life was a payment in exchange for which human
beings were set free from bondage. Such an interpretation naturally raised the question as to whom the ransom was paid.
The obvious answer was the devil, since it was he who held men
in bondage (II Tim 2.26; I Jn 5.19). God agreed to give His Son over
to Satan’s power in exchange for the human beings he held captive.
Origen, for example, asked,
But to whom did Christ give his soul for ransom? Surely not to God.
Could it then be to the Evil One? For he had us in his power until the
ransom for us should be given to him, even the life of Christ. The Evil

One had been deceived and led to suppose that he was capable of
mastering the soul and did not see that to hold him involved a trial
of strength greater than he could successfully undertake ... . Hence
it was not with gold or with perishable money that we were
redeemed, but with the precious blood of Christ.
(Commentary on Matthew xvi.8)

Typically, this arrangement between God and Satan was thought to
be a clever trick on God’s part. As the second person of the Trinity,
the Son could not possibly be held captive by Satan. But by his
incarnation the Son appeared weak and vulnerable like any other
human being under Satan’s sway. Only after the captives had been
freed did the Son manifest his divine power by rising from the
dead, breaking the bonds of death and hell, and escaping from
Satan’s power. Gregory of Nyssa offered a popular illustration of
God’s clever deception of Satan: “In order to secure that the ransom in our behalf might be easily accepted by him who required it,
the Deity was hidden under the veil of our nature, that so, as with
ravenous fish, the hook of the Deity might be gulped down along
with the bait of flesh” (Catechetical Oration 24).
But not everyone agreed with Origen’s ransom model. Gregory
Nazianzus, for example, sharply denounced the ransom model for
making Satan the object of Christ’s atoning death (Oration 45.22).
A different version of the Christus Victor theory emerged, especially
among the Latin Fathers, according to which Christ was not given
as a ransom to Satan but rather was the victim of Satan’s deadly
attack. Often confused with the ransom model, this so-called political model of Christus Victor attributes Satan’s undoing to an
overreach of authority on the devil’s part. As on the ransom
model, Satan was conceived to have, by God’s permission, right
of bondage over sinners. Thinking Christ to be vulnerable human
flesh, Satan attacked and killed Christ. But unlike the sinners under
Satan’s authority, Christ was entirely guiltless and therefore undeserving of death. Satan had thus overstepped his authority in
claiming Christ, so that God was justified in liberating those held
captive by him (Augustine On the Trinity 4.13.17).

--and on and on I can go.
 
I can prove you wrong right here-the DID teach PSA-but not as in-depth as in this century.

Dogmatic History of the Doctrine of the Atonement
Embroiled as they were in debates concerning the person of
Christ, the Church Fathers devoted little time to reflection upon
what later theologians were to call the work of Christ (e.g., his
achieving atonement). No ecumenical council ever pronounced
on the subject of the atonement, leaving the Church without
conciliar guidance. When the Church Fathers did mention the
atonement, their comments were brief and for the most part
unincisive.

The remarks of the Fathers on the atonement tend to reflect the
multiplicity and diversity of the NT motifs that they had inherited
from the biblical authors (Mitros 1967). Eusebius, for example,
wrote:


The Lamb of God ... was chastised on our behalf, and suffered
a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the
multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness
of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to
Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were

due to us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being
made a curse for us. And what is that but the price of our souls? And
so the oracle says in our person: “By his stripes we were healed,” and
“The Lord delivered him for our sins.”
(Demonstration of the Gospel 10.1)

Echoing Isaiah 53 and Gal 3.13, Eusebius employs the motifs of
sacrifice, vicarious suffering, penal substitution, satisfaction of
divine justice, and ransom price. Similar sentiments were
expressed by Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Cyril
of Alexandria, and others (Rivière 1909).


At the same time, the Fathers portrayed Christ’s death as
a tremendous victory won over Satan, a view of the atonement
that has come to be known as the Christus Victor theory (Aulén
1969). Modern scholars have tended to focus on this facet of the
Fathers’ teaching, doubtless because of its peculiarity and
curiosity.

2.1 Christus Victor Theory
The so-called Christus Victor theory of the atonement persisted for
about 900 years, from Irenaeus and Origen until the time of
Anselm. According to this viewpoint, the sacrifice of Christ’s life
served to deliver mankind from bondage to Satan and from the
corruption and death that are the consequences of sin. The Fathers
sometimes interpreted Jesus’s ransom saying very literally to mean
that Christ’s life was a payment in exchange for which human
beings were set free from bondage. Such an interpretation naturally raised the question as to whom the ransom was paid.
The obvious answer was the devil, since it was he who held men
in bondage (II Tim 2.26; I Jn 5.19). God agreed to give His Son over
to Satan’s power in exchange for the human beings he held captive.
Origen, for example, asked,
But to whom did Christ give his soul for ransom? Surely not to God.
Could it then be to the Evil One? For he had us in his power until the
ransom for us should be given to him, even the life of Christ. The Evil

One had been deceived and led to suppose that he was capable of
mastering the soul and did not see that to hold him involved a trial
of strength greater than he could successfully undertake ... . Hence
it was not with gold or with perishable money that we were
redeemed, but with the precious blood of Christ.
(Commentary on Matthew xvi.8)

Typically, this arrangement between God and Satan was thought to
be a clever trick on God’s part. As the second person of the Trinity,
the Son could not possibly be held captive by Satan. But by his
incarnation the Son appeared weak and vulnerable like any other
human being under Satan’s sway. Only after the captives had been
freed did the Son manifest his divine power by rising from the
dead, breaking the bonds of death and hell, and escaping from
Satan’s power. Gregory of Nyssa offered a popular illustration of
God’s clever deception of Satan: “In order to secure that the ransom in our behalf might be easily accepted by him who required it,
the Deity was hidden under the veil of our nature, that so, as with
ravenous fish, the hook of the Deity might be gulped down along
with the bait of flesh” (Catechetical Oration 24).
But not everyone agreed with Origen’s ransom model. Gregory
Nazianzus, for example, sharply denounced the ransom model for
making Satan the object of Christ’s atoning death (Oration 45.22).
A different version of the Christus Victor theory emerged, especially
among the Latin Fathers, according to which Christ was not given
as a ransom to Satan but rather was the victim of Satan’s deadly
attack. Often confused with the ransom model, this so-called political model of Christus Victor attributes Satan’s undoing to an
overreach of authority on the devil’s part. As on the ransom
model, Satan was conceived to have, by God’s permission, right
of bondage over sinners. Thinking Christ to be vulnerable humany.
flesh, Satan attacked and killed Christ. But unlike the sinners under
Satan’s authority, Christ was entirely guiltless and therefore undeserving of death. Satan had thus overstepped his authority in
claiming Christ, so that God was justified in liberating those held
captive by him (Augustine On the Trinity 4.13.17).

--and on and on I can go.
empty as no one above taught PSA. Nice try nothing from the Fathers wrath/punishment on the Son there. You read that into his words.

The Lamb of God ... was chastised on our behalf, and suffered
a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the
multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness
of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to
Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were

due to us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being
made a curse for us. And what is that but the price of our souls? And
so the oracle says in our person: “By his stripes we were healed,” and
“The Lord delivered him for our sins.”
(Demonstration of the Gospel 10.1)
 
I would encourage the people reading to notice it would not be difficult to clearly and concisely answer these questions.

Even if civic wrote 500 books on the subject, it should make him even more able to concisely summarize his view.

Even if all his conspiratorial genetic fallacies about church history and the Orthodox church were proven, he could still answer the questions.


That alone speaks volumes.
He is not a fan of answering questions. He prefers to filibuster and ignore any meaningful rebuttal.
 
He is not a fan of answering questions. He prefers to filibuster and ignore any meaningful rebuttal.
I know you are not talking about me lol. :)

I have completely dismantled the PSA argument in this thread. Its nothing but an imaginary doctrine found nowhere in the N.T. Jesus and the Apostles not once even alluded to it let alone affirmed it.

I mean c'mon really are you going to argue against Jesus teaching on the atonement since He is the one who made the atonement ?

I've quoted Jesus at length and what He taught about His sacrifice. Nowhere does He even imply it was to appease the Father. He never mentioned wrath from His Father nor hinted at it. Its nothing but a figment of ones imagination.

hope this helps !!!
 
I see the OP needs to be reposted with all the scriptures. :)


We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take


conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men, not the Father.

hope this helps !!!
 
And I will toss this in for free since I have engaged many calvinists face to face in my church. Not a single one can prove that PSA is true once we get into a discussion. Even our former pastor of 10 years did not want to discuss it with me because he knew his position held no water. He read my paper but did not want to talk about it with me. And IO have talked with our mens discipleship group that has elders in it and they cannot support what they have been taught about PSA either.

Its an emotional argument, not a biblical one that people believe because its been taught in the pulpits. And every opportunity I get I will expose its lie whether its online ot in person, at church, home groups, mens discipleship groups etc......,

Since the Atonement is the centerpiece of the gospel its important to have a correct and biblical view of it and to correct the false teachings that accompany the gospel message. PSA is one of them and the most damaging to the character of God. PSA puts Gods nature and character on trial. And there are plenty of witnesses against it. On 2/3 witnesses let every fact be confirmed. The witness of the Father, the witness of the Son, the witness of the Holy Spirit, the witness of the Apostles, the witness of the N.T.

hope this helps !!!
 
How does his blood cover your sins?

Why does his blood cover your sins?
I searched my Bible [NASB] for verses containing "cover" and "sin" (or sins) ... the results were interesting.

What makes you think that any blood covers your sins? [what scripture]
  • (curiosity on where you hang your theological hat more than a challenge)

Blood establishes a "covenant" ... so what if Jesus blood served to transform a relationship (like when Abram left his world and became "God's people").
  • "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." - John 3:18 [NASB]

[EDIT: Sorry, I started at the beginning and didn't realize that it was a long topic.]
 
And I will toss this in for free since I have engaged many calvinists face to face in my church. Not a single one can prove that PSA is true once we get into a discussion. Even our former pastor of 10 years did not want to discuss it with me because he knew his position held no water. He read my paper but did not want to talk about it with me. And IO have talked with our mens discipleship group that has elders in it and they cannot support what they have been taught about PSA either.

Its an emotional argument, not a biblical one that people believe because its been taught in the pulpits. And every opportunity I get I will expose its lie whether its online ot in person, at church, home groups, mens discipleship groups etc......,

Since the Atonement is the centerpiece of the gospel its important to have a correct and biblical view of it and to correct the false teachings that accompany the gospel message. PSA is one of them and the most damaging to the character of God. PSA puts Gods nature and character on trial. And there are plenty of witnesses against it. On 2/3 witnesses let every fact be confirmed. The witness of the Father, the witness of the Son, the witness of the Holy Spirit, the witness of the Apostles, the witness of the N.T.

hope this helps !!!
I do not particularly support PSA in its details, but I think you overstate your case.

Would you care to offer an opinion on the TYPOLOGY of the "scapegoat" in OT Law as it applies to Christ and Sin?
 
I do not particularly support PSA in its details, but I think you overstate your case.

Would you care to offer an opinion on the TYPOLOGY of the "scapegoat" in OT Law as it applies to Christ and Sin?
Well for starters there is one place in the OT mentioned and in the NT Jesus is not once associated with said scapegoat. So I reject it. I would never base my theology on a single passage in the OT that is not affirmed in the NT. That’s where PSA fails the sniff test.
 
1. How does his blood cover your sins? 2. Why does his blood cover your sins?
3. Do you think if Jesus does some good deed it will somehow outweigh your bad deeds?
4. Why couldn't God forgive you without dying and shedding blood for you?
Jesus is not an animal—and the Law did not require an animal sacrifice for everyone, it was a symbol of a spiritual truth.
5. Why do you think the animal's blood was taken after it was burned up, and sprinkled on God's holiest presence?
6. Do you think your sins deserve punishment?

I probably should have answered my own questions as well here.

1. Jesus' Blood represents the spiritual and physical death promised as the result of my sin—and him experiencing what I deserve is accounted to me legally in God's sight by our mystical union on the Cross when I put my trust in it.

2. It upholds the holiness of God in his unchanging Law, and the evilness of sin towards an infinitely holy God, to express the terribleness of sin with an appropriate display of God's anger towards all sin as punishment for it.

3. Positive actions alone would never erase my sin debt, the consequences that my sinful behavior deserved.

4. Because nothing else would express the holiness of God and his Law, and the evilness of sin against an all-perfect God.

5. This animal blood being sprinkled in God's holiest presence, represented how serious and deep a problem sin really created in having a positive relationship and fellowship with God, and the depth of sacrifice needed to restore it.

6. Yes, and an eternal unending suffering of God's anger for how serious my sins were, that Christ was willing to experience for me.
 
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’


Jeremiah 3:12-13
Go, proclaim this message toward the north: ‘Return, O faithless Israel,’ declares the LORD. ‘I will no longer look on you with anger, for I am merciful,’ declares the LORD. ‘I will not be angry forever. / Only acknowledge your guilt, that you have rebelled against the LORD your God. You have scattered your favors to foreign gods under every green tree and have not obeyed My voice,’” declares the LORD.

Hosea 14:1-2
Return, O Israel, to the LORD your God, for you have stumbled by your iniquity. / Bring your confessions and return to the LORD. Say to Him: “Take away all our iniquity and receive us graciously, that we may present the fruit of our lips.

Joel 2:12-13
“Yet even now,” declares the LORD, “return to Me with all your heart, with fasting, weeping, and mourning.” / So rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to the LORD your God. For He is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in loving devotion. And He relents from sending disaster.

Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His inheritance—who does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in loving devotion? / He will again have compassion on us; He will vanquish our iniquities. You will cast out all our sins into the depths of the sea

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who do not need to repent.

Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of God’s angels over one sinner who repents.”

Matthew 18:14
In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
 
I know you are not talking about me lol. :)

I have completely dismantled the PSA argument in this thread. Its nothing but an imaginary doctrine found nowhere in the N.T. Jesus and the Apostles not once even alluded to it let alone affirmed it.

I mean c'mon really are you going to argue against Jesus teaching on the atonement since He is the one who made the atonement ?

I've quoted Jesus at length and what He taught about His sacrifice. Nowhere does He even imply it was to appease the Father. He never mentioned wrath from His Father nor hinted at it. Its nothing but a figment of ones imagination.

hope this helps !!!
I was talking about you. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?
 
Well for starters there is one place in the OT mentioned and in the NT Jesus is not once associated with said scapegoat. So I reject it. I would never base my theology on a single passage in the OT that is not affirmed in the NT. That’s where PSA fails the sniff test.
Using that METRIC, we must also reject the “seed of the woman” and the whole conversation in Genesis 3 about bruising heads and heels.
  • for starters there is one place in the OT mentioned
  • in the NT Jesus is not once associated with said ”seed”
  • It is a single passage in the OT that is not affirmed in the NT
  • Jesus as the “seed of the woman” fails the sniff test?
God dedicated an entire chapter (chapter 16) in Leviticus (the Law) to the “scapegoat”.
Speaking of the Law, Jesus said: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!” - Matthew 5:18 [NASB]
 
Using that METRIC, we must also reject the “seed of the woman” and the whole conversation in Genesis 3 about bruising heads and heels.
  • for starters there is one place in the OT mentioned
  • in the NT Jesus is not once associated with said ”seed”
  • It is a single passage in the OT that is not affirmed in the NT
  • Jesus as the “seed of the woman” fails the sniff test?
God dedicated an entire chapter (chapter 16) in Leviticus (the Law) to the “scapegoat”.
Speaking of the Law, Jesus said: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!” - Matthew 5:18 [NASB]
the scapegoat theory is EISEGESIS not Exegesis. No one in the N.T. associates the scapegoat of Lev 14-16 with Jesus. Jesus didin't John the Baptist didn't The Apostles didn't God didn't.

1-The leviticus scapegoat lived
2-Jesus the Lamb of God died

there is no comparison, no biblical connection made by anyone in the bible with Jesus and the scapegoat by any writer.

its nothing but an ASSUMPTION which is eisegesis, not exegesis.

Summary with 10 points/facts

1- the first goat was unto the Lord, not the scapegoat
2- the first goat died and was sacrificed unto the Lord
3- Jesus died as a sacrifice for sin unto the Lord
4- Jesus was not released and lived like the scapegoat
5- The N.T. never associates Jesus with the scapegoat that lived
6- The scapegoat theory is an unbiblical one just like PSA
7- The scapegoat did not atone for sin with blood
8- Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins
9- Jesus was not the scapegoat since His blood was poured out for the forgiveness of sins
10- Calling Jesus the scapegoat is eisegesis, not exegesis.

hope this helps !!!
 
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