Do you think the OT. was just pagan stories recorded for us? Do pagans share the spiritual world with us?
How did God view the Atonement ?
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Diserner
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Sure, Jon, thanks for asking.
My theological view is called Classical Arminian.
We believe that because God is holy, there is not one single sin that can go unpunished by him.
God's Law is absolute spiritual perfection, and every single human being that ever lived fell short of it.
But God is also absolute and complete Love.
His love is not a permissive compromising love.
Giving your child literally everything they want and never correcting them—that's not love!
So if God loves all human beings and still must judge all sin to display his worth and holiness what can he do?
As the Judge whose character and glory is the real moral code, he makes all the rules in accordance with his value system.
This allows him to maintain his own value by joining himself to all humanity, and then allowing himself to receive the punishment for sin in their stead.
Should this mean everyone is automatically saved?
Well, God could theoretically do it that way, but he chosen to honor and abide by the laws of free will in order to please and glorify himself.
This means, people have to choose to accept God's mercy and grace provided in the Cross for all people.
It is not automatic, because God respects the free will of man, and has given men this power and dignity.
I have a lot of posts explaining these views in much more depth.... it would take a lot of room.
I encourage you to look at some old posts that really get into these ideas.
Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring us to God....
I urge you to be reconciled to God through Christ!
Diserner
Well-known member
Why do you hate Jesus being punished for you?
You really think that's unloving?
This is the Gospel.
Diserner
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I believe the entire OT and NT were inspired by God to bring us spiritual truth.
civic
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What makes you think he isn't already reconciled to God ?
civic
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God did not punish Jesus sinful and wicked men punished Him.
When will you believe these scriptures ?
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life
Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."
Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.
Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take
Diserner
Well-known member
You cannot reject the Biblical Christ and make your own version of Christ, and still be saved.
Paul calls this "another Jesus" and says many people readily allow it.
Only the BIBLICAL Jesus saves.
Diserner
Well-known member
I do believe those Scriptures.
You just left many other Scriptures out.
You did not answer the question.
civic
Well-known member
He is a trinitarian who rejects the heretical views of PSA which are an assault on Gods nature and character just like tulip it dizerner.
civic
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No you have God killing and punishing Jesus. I have the biblical view that the romans and the jews (unbelievers) killed, mocked, tortured and persecuted Him.
Q: How does his blood cover your sins?
By redemption. A sinless man giving His life for our sinful lives, that upon his death we are free from sin and the guilt thereof.
Q: Why does his blood cover your sins?
Because God mercifully instituted a provision within the law whereby sins could be atoned, and He sent His Son to be the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world.
Q: Do you think if Jesus does some good deed it will somehow outweigh your bad deeds?
I agree with the Apostle Paul in Romans 5:18 when he stated, "as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men".
So, absolutely yes. The single righteous act of Jesus obeying His Father's will to willingly die as an offering for our sin certainly outweighs the sin of all mankind. Paul stated in Romans verse 15-16, "But the gift (of righteousness) is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift (of righteousness) followed many trespasses and brought justification."
It is a foundation of our faith that Adam's one sin brought sin and death into humanity, and Jesus our Lord's one act of righteousness brought justification and life to humanity. What do you think Paul was stating?
Q: Why couldn't God forgive you without dying and shedding blood for you?
Because life is in the blood, and it is a sinless life that atones for one's sinful life. "it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." (Lev 17:11)
Q: Why do you think the animal's blood was taken after it was burned up, and sprinkled on God's holiest presence?
To fulfill the provision of atonement, wherein a sinless life is offered for the sins of the sinful, making reconciliation between God and man, averting wrath.
Q: Do you think your sins deserve punishment?
Absolutely, I deserved punishment for my own sins. No one else but me deserved what was due me. It is wrong to punish the righteous for the sins of the wicked. Isn't that right? Isn't that what God said? (Eze 18:20) "The soul who sins, he shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him."
But if God allows His sinless Son to willingly redeem me from the merciless judgement of the law on my behalf, taking upon himself my judgement of death to free me from the law, then so be it. The merciless judgement of the law is fulfilled. The love and mercy of the redeemer is fulfilled. And I am free from the law and its wrath that the lawgiver instituted and redeemed me from. We "are not under law but under grace" because God "has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation"
No wrath or punishment mentioned anywhere in the bible upon any animal sacrifice, and especially not on our Lord who died to redeem us from the curse of the Law, freeing us from sin's bondage and wrath.
Let me just say it, if there was a smoking gun of God's wrath upon our Lord, you and every proponent of PSA would be posting it, but there is not a smoking gun because that did not happen. Seriously, brother that should be sounding alarms for you.
Adam brought sin and death into humanity, and Jesus Christ our Lord brought us justification and eternal life. Justification is no longer merited by one's sinlessness. We are justified by faith that the blood of Jesus our sinless Lord justified us with God...Romans 5:1,9
God Bless
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Diserner
Well-known member
They were questions, not objections.
Diserner
Well-known member
Paul connects the wages of sin to wrath. Paul was saying Jesus took our wrath, that is why we are saved from wrath through him.
It is nothing short of bizarre to me that a person can not see such a strong and clear logical connection Paul is making there.
If I wanted to rejected PSA, I would simply reject Paul altogether.
What do you think the "curse of the Law" is?
Mere physical death?
This is simply not Biblically supported, as the Law brings wrath—that's it's curse.
There is such of an embarrassment of riches supporting PSA I can only think it's very demonic people can't see what's right in front of them. And that really concerns me, because I don't understand what could have allowed this into their lives. What kind of sin could prevent a person from seeing the most core and central meaning of what Christ came to do?
He became the curse of the Law for us.
Penal.
Substitution.
Repeated so many verses, so many places.
It definitely does sound alarms—how someone could not see such a clear and strong Biblical truth right in front of their eyes.
I thank God you believe in the principle of grace, and that Jesus had to do "something" to make you forgiven.
I hope to God he will count that as faith in Jesus taking your place.
The insult to God's holiness and denigration of Christ's sacrifice can perhaps be forgiven.
We'll have plenty of time to repent in heaven!
I'm glad you seem to believe in original sin at least.
God have mercy on us all.
civic
Well-known member
I couldn't read past this assumption. Please quote Paul saying the above.
CORRECTION: He actually connects the wages of sin with death, not wrath.
Diserner
Well-known member
CORRECTION:
Romans 3 says the Law brings WRATH.
Physical death does not pay for sins, else Jesus is unnecessary.
civic
Well-known member
Im still waiting for the quote
civic
Well-known member
Romans 3:5- according to man, not God as Paul makes clear below.
New International Version
But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
New Living Translation
“But,” some might say, “our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?” (This is merely a human point of view.)
English Standard Version
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Berean Standard Bible
But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms.
Berean Literal Bible
But if our unrighteousness shows God's righteousness, what shall we say? God, inflicting the wrath, is unrighteous? I speak according to man.
New International Version
But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
New Living Translation
“But,” some might say, “our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?” (This is merely a human point of view.)
English Standard Version
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Berean Standard Bible
But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms.
Berean Literal Bible
But if our unrighteousness shows God's righteousness, what shall we say? God, inflicting the wrath, is unrighteous? I speak according to man.
Let's start with your first response and work from there.
You asked: Do you think if Jesus does some good deed it will somehow outweigh your bad deeds?
You didn't answer the question even though I used a quote from the bible that specifically answers your question.
Will you agree with the Apostle Paul that "as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men"?
And are you going to agree with the Lord's Apostle that "nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification."?
So, yes, using your own words, the "good deed" Jesus done outweighs the "bad deeds" of all men. The Apostle Paul made that quite clear.
Do you agree?
And in response to your opinion...
I'm sure the Catholic can't understand how you don't believe in purgatory with all the "strong and clear logical" connections.
How about the modalist? I'm sure they too can make the same statement why you don't "see such a strong and clear logical connection" they see in the bible.
Nowhere, not one single time is purgatory mentioned or implied in the bible. It is read into the text.
Nowhere, not one single time is modalism mentioned or implied in the bible. It is read into the text.
Nowhere, not one single time is God pouring wrath out upon His Son Jesus mentioned or implied in the bible. It is read into the text.
There is one thing in common with false doctrines; the biblical proof is not there to support it. The "proof" must be read into the text.
Let me ask you. What is the wrath from God the Father that you think was poured out upon Jesus His Son for our sins?
I will give you the biblical answer for God's wrath against sin, it is death. What happened when Adam sinned? Death. What happened when people sinned against God and kindled His anger? Death, lots of it. What atoned for the sins on the day of atonement? Death. Without death-shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.
So the question is: Did God kill His own Son, or did Jesus willingly give up His life unto death to atone for our sins? One has God pouring out His wrath upon His Son by taking His life. The other has the Son willingly giving up His life unto death to atone for our sins.
Jesus said:
- "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." (John 10:11)
- I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. (Joh 10:14-15)
- "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (Joh 10:17-18)
- Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:18-19)
The one righteous act that Paul states is the Lord Jesus Christ willingly giving His life up unto death for our sins. No one took it from Him, otherwise it was not a voluntary righteous act of obeying His Father's will to willingly die for our sins, but an involuntary act made against Him.
Brother, do you understand now?
God Bless
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