How did God view the Atonement ?

[civic]

How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take


conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Diserner]

conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins. and There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.

hope this helps !!!

And how exactly do you logically connect your sins to Jesus dying?

What logical connection does Jesus dying have to do with your personal sins against God?

 

[civic]

And how exactly do you logically connect your sins to Jesus dying?

What logical connection does Jesus dying have to do with your personal sins against God?

His death covers my sins with His blood .

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Continued:

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Diserner]

His death covers my sins with His blood .

How does his blood cover your sins?

Why does his blood cover your sins?

Do you think if Jesus does some good deed it will somehow outweigh your bad deeds?

Why couldn't God forgive you without dying and shedding blood for you?

Jesus is not an animal—and the Law did not require an animal sacrifice for everyone, it was a symbol of a spiritual truth.

Why do you think the animal's blood was taken after it was burned up, and sprinkled on God's holiest presence?

Do you think your sins deserve punishment?

 

[civic]

How does his blood cover your sins?

Why does his blood cover your sins?

Do you think if Jesus does some good deed it will somehow outweigh your bad deeds?

Why couldn't God forgive you without dying and shedding blood for you?

Jesus is not an animal—and the Law did not require an animal sacrifice for everyone, it was a symbol of a spiritual truth.

Why do you think the animal's blood was taken after it was burned up, and sprinkled on God's holiest presence?

Do you think your sins deserve punishment?

I have a complete thread in PSA . Wrath , Justice, Punishment were mid evil concepts about the atonement with the reformers. The Orthodox Church which proceeded the reformers also rejected that view of the atonement. The early church fathers didn’t teach it either . Church history is on my side here as is scripture which my thread proves. I don’t think it needs repeating here.

 

[civic]

But here is the link for any guests or members who are interested.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/

 

[Diserner]

I have a complete thread in PSA . Wrath , Justice, Punishment were mid evil concepts about the atonement with the reformers. The Orthodox Church which proceeded the reformers also rejected that view of the atonement. The early church fathers didn’t teach it either . Church history is on my side here as is scripture which my thread proves. I don’t think it needs repeating here.

I've read your stuff, and it doesn't answer these questions.

All this is a red herring.

 

[civic]

I've read your stuff, and it doesn't answer these questions.

All this is a red herring.

Sure it does I go into great detail about all the misnomers taught with the atonement. Expiation is the answer.

 

[Diserner]

I would encourage the people reading to notice it would not be difficult to clearly and concisely answer these questions.

Even if civic wrote 500 books on the subject, it should make him even more able to concisely summarize his view.

Even if all his conspiratorial genetic fallacies about church history and the Orthodox church were proven, he could still answer the questions.


That alone speaks volumes.

 

[Diserner]

1. How does his blood cover your sins?

2. Why does his blood cover your sins?

3. Do you think if Jesus does some good deed it will somehow outweigh your bad deeds?

4. Why couldn't God forgive you without dying and shedding blood for you?

Jesus is not an animal—and the Law did not require an animal sacrifice for everyone, it was a symbol of a spiritual truth.

5. Why do you think the animal's blood was taken after it was burned up, and sprinkled on God's holiest presence?

6. Do you think your sins deserve punishment?

 

[civic]

I've read your stuff, and it doesn't answer these questions.

All this is a red herring.

I already said Expiation answers your questions.

Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was canceled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God, who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification, and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin. (gotquestions.org)

Propitiation vs. Expiation- The New Testament usage of hilaskomai and hilasmos, consistent with its precedent usage in the Greek Old Testament, speaks consistently of God’s atoning action in Christ directed toward sin on behalf of sinners, not human action directed toward God to satisfy God. The criterion for interpretation, Stott has said, “is whether the object of the atoning action is God or man.” “Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. James Dunn summarizes well the case for preferring “expiation” to “propitiation” as a translation for hilastērion: Darrin W. Snyder Belousek, Atonement, Justice, and Peace: The Message of the Cross and the Mission of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 247–252.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.

Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)

Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

The above confirms it’s Expiation in the Atonement from Jesus teaching and the Greek Lexicons confirm

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)

Once again proving my point the NT model is Expiation .

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

All the questions from all the skeptics in the world will not change the OP and Jesus teaching on the Atonement and the One who made atonement. His words are spirit and they are truth. I base my view of the atonement on the teachings of God Himself, Jesus Christ.

There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Arial]

His death covers my sins with His blood .

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Why does His blood cover your sins?
How does it do so?

You stated that theology starts with God so where is the theology of God in your claim? What is it about God that procures the forgiveness of sin with the blood of Jesus?

 

[civic]

Why does His blood cover your sins?
How does it do so?

You stated that theology starts with God so where is the theology of God in your claim? What is it about God that procures the forgiveness of sin with the blood of Jesus?

I explained it in the rest of the post. See posts 12-15.

 

[Arial]

Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.

You can only say that because you think Jesus "expiated" the sins of the whole world. But either He did that or He didn't do that. If He did that there would be no future wrath at all. If there is future wrath in that case, Jesus's blood, the blood of the sacrifice, would be poured out for nothing, more often than not. People would be facing God's wrath even though Jesus poured out His blood for them.

And in order for Jesus to pour out His blood He had to be killed. And any way you look at it that was for sin. It was His suffering and death on the cross "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," "becoming sin for us." that made peace between God and man. (Propitiation.)

 

[civic]

You can only say that because you think Jesus "expiated" the sins of the whole world. But either He did that or He didn't do that. If He did that there would be no future wrath at all. If there is future wrath in that case, Jesus's blood, the blood of the sacrifice, would be poured out for nothing, more often than not. People would be facing God's wrath even though Jesus poured out His blood for them.

And in order for Jesus to pour out His blood He had to be killed. And any way you look at it that was for sin. It was His suffering and death on the cross "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," "becoming sin for us." that made peace between God and man. (Propitiation.)

He did do that and without faith no one’s sins are forgiven and atonement is not made. Think of the blood on the doorposts that was applied by faith on Passover night when the death angel was sent . Those who applied the blood were saved, those who didn’t died.

 

[Arial]

“Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament.

You know Civic, that is a statement made on the sole basis of what someone prefers and making it fit what they already believe. It isn't even accurate for propitiation, in the case of Christ, does not indicate an action by humans directed toward God. Expiation is what the propitiation accomplishes.

Easton's Bible Dictionary - Propitiation​

Propitiation [N] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/propitiation.html
that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners.
In Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5 (A.V., "mercy-seat") the Greek word hilasterion is used. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth , which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant ( Exodus 25:21 ; 30:6 ). This Greek word (hilasterion) came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.


In 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Compare Hebrews 2:17 , where the expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the RSV "make propitiation.")