How did God view the Atonement ?

Arial said:
You know Civic, that is a statement made on the sole basis of what someone prefers and making it fit what they already believe. It isn't even accurate for propitiation, in the case of Christ, does not indicate an action by humans directed toward God. Expiation is what the propitiation accomplishes.



Easton's Bible Dictionary - Propitiation​

Propitiation [N] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/propitiation.html
that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners.
In Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5 (A.V., "mercy-seat") the Greek word hilasterion is used. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth , which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant ( Exodus 25:21 ; 30:6 ). This Greek word (hilasterion) came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.


In 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Compare Hebrews 2:17 , where the expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the RSV "make propitiation.")
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see my other posts after this one in the thread where your objections have been refuted. propitiation is a bad translation of the word. expiation is the biblical idea, not propitiation.

also see below

 
Arial said:
You know Civic, that is a statement made on the sole basis of what someone prefers and making it fit what they already believe. It isn't even accurate for propitiation, in the case of Christ, does not indicate an action by humans directed toward God. Expiation is what the propitiation accomplishes.



Easton's Bible Dictionary - Propitiation​

Propitiation [N] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/propitiation.html
that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners.
In Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5 (A.V., "mercy-seat") the Greek word hilasterion is used. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth , which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant ( Exodus 25:21 ; 30:6 ). This Greek word (hilasterion) came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.


In 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Compare Hebrews 2:17 , where the expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the RSV "make propitiation.")
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It is called redefining what stands written-in other words-he is dead set against PSA-so naturally-propitiation is not propitiation, it must be expiation-forgetting it cannot be separated.

Excellent post.
J.
 
Johann said:
It is called redefining what stands written-in other words-he is dead set against PSA-so naturally-propitiation is not propitiation, it must be expiation-forgetting it cannot be separated.

Excellent post.
J.
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Try refuting it by making your own argument. Let see if you can prove its not expiation.

In 1 John 4:10 hilasmos/ translated as propitiation in some translations there cannot mean sooth anger and must mean something else( Expiation) than what is taught in christendom. God says love 3 times in that passage so it cannot mean anger being soothed. It means expiation as in covering for sin.

I always go to Christ who is God as my primary source of truth. His teaching must not contradict anyone else in scripture. If there seems to be a contradiction then it is with mans understanding on the topic not from Jesus teaching. He is God and He is the authority on all things. Not once did Jesus even hint Hid death was propitiation as taught by the reformers meaning appeasing an angry deity- that concept is pagan. That is why propitiation is not a good translation, expiation is the better translation and meaning in 1 John.

How did He view His own death- the atonement ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation

The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.

If we were to read propitiation ( appease an angry god as the meaning ) in 1 John 4:10 look at how absurd if reads.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to appease our angry god , to appease His anger, to appease his angry self etc.......for our sins.

That makes no sense at all theologically , grammatically or contextually. It’s a contradiction, an oxymoron.

hope this helps !!!
 
The World is reconciled to God. What else is there? For men to be reconciled to God, which is why we "urge men to be reconciled to God".
 
JonC said:
The World is reconciled to God. What else is there? For men to be reconciled to God, which is why we "urge men to be reconciled to God".
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The price of sin must be paid to maintain God's holiness.

This is the truth the devil constantly attacks—"You shall not die."
 
JonC said:
God is a God of love, can He just forgive people?
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Not according to the PSA proponents. wrath is required first before forgiveness can be granted. The ironic thing is Jesus forgave so many people when He walked this earth by saying to them "your sins are forgiven" and neither do I condemn you !

All the while the religious wanted to continue condemning them.
 
civic said:
Not according to the PSA proponents. wrath is required first before forgiveness can be granted. The ironic thing is Jesus forgave so many people when He walked this earth by saying to them "your sins are forgiven" and neither do I condemn you !

All the while the religious wanted to continue condemning them.
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You believe that a Holy God does not have to punish sin ? So physical death is the punishment then?
 
dizerner said:
Why?

Can't God just forgive?

Yet you still die, what an unforgiving God according to you.

Jesus forgave people BECAUSE HE BORE THEIR SINS.
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conflating again forgiveness of sin does not mean we will not die physically, it means we will not die spiritually.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
@JonC take a look at my thesis paper I would like to hear your comments. I may turn it into a book sometime. This in depth study is what led me out of calvinism. I was a calvinist for over 40 years. I'm still adding to my points in the paper as time allows. To be honest its a never ending study.

P.S. I'm glad you found us. :)

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Thanks for sharing, it looks long so it will take some time. How do you describe your view now?You say you were a calvinist for 40 years, what are you now? Use the 5 point model and show where you agree and where you now differ!
 
JonC said:
How does He punish sin? That sounds like a pagan idea to some people, don't you think. What were all those bloody sacrifices about in the OT.?
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Do you reject the OT?

Pagan people had right beliefs. It is not as if paganism means "literally every belief is wrong."

Pagans believed in a spiritual world.

Is that automatically pagan?

Is there no spiritual world?

It's a logical fallacy.
 
JonC said:
Thanks for sharing, it looks long so it will take some time. How do you describe your view now?You say you were a calvinist for 40 years, what are you now? Use the 5 point model and show where you agree and where you now differ!
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I don't agree with the first four. TD infiltrated the church through augustine. calvin got most of his doctrines from augustine. The P is one I like to just say that believers are secure in Christ. The P is the least debated point imho. The ULI is an assault on the good nature and character of our loving God.
 
dizerner said:
Why?

Can't God just forgive?

Yet you still die, what an unforgiving God according to you.

Jesus forgave people BECAUSE HE BORE THEIR SINS.
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I have heard calvinists say that. What do you mean by that phrase....He bore their sins?
In what way did he do that? Did he carry them? What happened to the sin? Do the sins of unbelievers get bore also?
If he bore their sins also, why do they perish?
 
dizerner said:
Then wrath is just a "byproduct."

If you want to play with words.
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only upon those who's sin has not been forgiven- those who are called god haters, reprobates, evil doers, rebellious etc....... Gods wrath never falls on the righteous, holy, lovers of God, born again believers and never upon the Sinless One, The Holy One, The Righteous One, the Son of God.
 

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