How Christ’s death secures the salvation of those who believe.
- Thread starter Theophilus
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sethproton
Active member
Do you think Jesus was telling the thief they would both be in heaven that Friday?
sethproton
Active member
How did you deduct that Jesus and the THIEF WOULd BE TOGTHER in paradise on Friday. how did you deduct that means heaven?
So Jesus said "Today" it was Friday "today you will be with Me in Paradise" How does that mean that day, Friday they would be in Heaven together?
Jesus would not rise from the dead till Sunday. Up till then He was in paradise, but He is not in Heaven
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civic
Well-known member
yes along with expository preaching from the pulpit. I'm fortunate to have a non calvinist pastor who in an expository preacher.
Isaiah 53:10
The Anti-Missionary’s Charge: The Jewish translation of Isaiah 53:10 is the most accurate. This is the rendering found in Tanakh: “And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if …www.hadavar.org
More my style and love the hermeneutical approach-from Hadavar ministry.
Johann.
Dizerner
Well-known member
"Heaven" just means sky in the original languages.
That is why we have the 2nd heaven and the 3rd heaven.
"Heaven" as we use it today is not the physical sky, of course.
Soul sleepers try to make it all important that Jesus specify that it was "today" when he spoke his words.
This is pointless information. All three crucified people knew it was their last day on earth.
They did not need to specify or know that it was "today" they were speaking, as if it were important to know it wasn't tomorrow.
The context—and context is king as they say—dictates Jesus use maximal meaning for his words.
Jesus did not want to be misunderstand, and only had breath for a few words to say.
Every word Jesus used would not be superfluous or decorative like mentioning that it was today he was speaking.
Jesus goes to the heart of the earth. There, as Jesus himself shared was Abraham and the saints of old awaiting him.
There Jesus preached to those who rejected Noah's gospel, and there Jesus set all the captives free—in Abraham's bosom.
This was the promised blessed rest of the saints, that they would be with God.
When Jesus arose have you ever wondered why so many saints came out of the graves afterwards?
No, they weren't taking a break from their soul naps—they were freed from captivity, as Jesus led them on high.
Just as Paul tells us, he ascended on high while leading captivity captive.
Now Jesus said "all are alive to God." Jesus taught very clearly that angels receive the righteous dead to be with God's presence.
Jesus taught very clearly, that some people in Sheol were in complete comfort, and some in torment, both fully self-aware.
Nobody was sleeping and knocked unconscious—sleep is a metaphor for death, nobody is soul dreaming.
Yet, you will find the annihilationists and soul sleepers trotting out metaphorical usage to attempt to prove their point.
While claiming the actual teaching Jesus used to bring the truth direct to our hearts, is what is really metaphorical.
This is reversing how the text should be treated and interpreted—clear texts first, unclear texts after.
sethproton
Active member
Yes, Jesus goes to the heart of the earth, finally.
Today we will be in paradise.
Are you sure you understand literal versus figurative language?
When Jesus and the thief died that Friday, their bodies were in the physical grave but they went to pardise. Yet pictures of people there, speak of body parts. How can literal body parys be in sheol?
e v e
Well-known member
the heart of the Original Earth, in the other reality and per ancient texts....
which is now sheol, was desolated by mystery babylon in the other reality.
our desolated eden is now sheol... but the sons will restore their land with Christ.
In eden (now sheol) we had literally gorgeous Original bodies made by God,
not these corrupt flesh ones after the fall..
at the Change soon we will be restored to our Eden nature...
our soul got separated from our Original being...
by adams gruesome actions.
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e v e
Well-known member
we were never as plato describes it, a soul and a body as two distinct things...
or tripartite or what have you. That is all plato..
npsh in scripture means soul... and means body. We were one sweet being
with no distinction... and were not in this type of flesh we have now,
which is the fleshbody Paul laments... the current body has no life on its own...
for its but part of the natural man which is Death.
this flesh cannot enter paradise.
only our souls made by God
can return to Him and be restored to our Eden paradise.
or tripartite or what have you. That is all plato..
npsh in scripture means soul... and means body. We were one sweet being
with no distinction... and were not in this type of flesh we have now,
which is the fleshbody Paul laments... the current body has no life on its own...
for its but part of the natural man which is Death.
this flesh cannot enter paradise.
only our souls made by God
can return to Him and be restored to our Eden paradise.
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e v e
Well-known member
Now we are in a fleshbody, death,
its needs and wants subject to
the law of sin = this earth and this
body and its type of natural mind oppressing us
with its corrupt nature and creation and mindset...
whereas before adam went treacherous,
God's souls walked with Him,
in paradise in His Nature and Creation,
and our thoughts were His thoughts...
with His Spirit leading us
We are not in paradise now... we are so so far away from Home
....and all He does is to get us Back to Him...
its needs and wants subject to
the law of sin = this earth and this
body and its type of natural mind oppressing us
with its corrupt nature and creation and mindset...
whereas before adam went treacherous,
God's souls walked with Him,
in paradise in His Nature and Creation,
and our thoughts were His thoughts...
with His Spirit leading us
We are not in paradise now... we are so so far away from Home
....and all He does is to get us Back to Him...
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sethproton
Active member
thanks Eve,
e v e
Well-known member
sheol = tartarus. same location though the greeks did not know scripture or how tartarus came to be desolated.
e v e
Well-known member
you asked this on another forum closed thread...
"Anyone know of a scripture, or even logic that would explain the need for Jesus to remain a man, in a man's body after He resurrected?
One poster claimed that He had to be a man so that He could continue to mediate the new covenant. This is not correct because the covenant was mediated once for all time in His blood.
"At first glimpse, it appears He took up a new human body to appear in, as He did look like a man and no one recognized Him.
"There are many scriptures that can be dicussed concerning His new body, and i am willing to do that, but for the moment, I am interested in an answer from scripture or logic that explains why Jesus still needs a human body?"
The answer is that christ has a body of the original Eden paradise nature I was posting about above.
This flesh body we have is not God's, resulted from adam and belongs to the evil realm....
so... the word man is not the same meaning in the context of paradise, as in this world. Christ's resurrection body is not a physical body resulting from the fall like the type of body we are imprisoned in, on this earth. Christs new body is of the Nature of God's realm.
Neither Christ nor we need this fleshbody and He came to save us from it as its nature is sin.
no one will remember this flesh.
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sethproton
Active member
Sethproton: yes. that's me, and my understanding that Jesus is no longer human and that continuing to be human is not needed
e v e
Well-known member
yes...
being in this corrupt flesh was a huge step down for Christ which He did for us... incredible.
sethproton
Active member
this will be one area where we agree, at least as stated so far.
e v e
Well-known member
There could be others...
brightfame52
Well-known member
Not only that, but Christs death secures unto Himself believers in Himself Jn 12:32-33
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The all men here He draws as a result of Him being lifted up[signifyng His Death for them] become believers, thats what His drawing produces.
Don Miller
New member
The message of the gospel, focused on Christ's death and resurrection, is one that "calls" to all people.
Unfortunately, not all will respond.
brightfame52
Well-known member
But Christs death secures unto Himself believers in Himself Jn 12:32-33
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The all men here He draws as a result of Him being lifted up[signifying His Death for them] become believers, thats what His drawing produces.
Don Miller
New member
Jesus wasn’t implying that every person without exception would put their faith in Him for salvation. Clearly, many did not. Jesus meant that people of all ethnic groups and from every part of the world would be drawn to Him through His exaltation in death. The “all people” included the Greeks who were seeking Jesus right then and listening to His voice.
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