Gods Inability to save

[TedT]

He will not force you against your will

Being saved by grace by the faith that was a gift from GOD was MOST CERTAINLY against my sinful will.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ordinary free will in theological terms allows for the doublethink that we have a free will here on earth at the same time we are enslaved to sin without any ability to choose righteousness.

It also means merely the ability to choose even if all one is able to choose is sinful.

True free will means uncoerced by any power or force making those enslaved to sin to be without a free will.

all decisions anyone make at any time is coerced by something. Be it our will. Our desire. Someone else.

even people enslaved to sin according to paul keep things of the law. Paul makes this clear. so we can chose to not break the law..

so to say we can not chose good is a misnomer.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Being saved by grace by the faith that was a gift from GOD was MOST CERTAINLY against my sinful will.

interesting

so God forced you?

I called out to God like the tax collector. it was most certainty based on God showing me the truth not only about my sin, but where I was headed. unless I received him

 

[TedT]

all decisions anyone make at any time is coerced by something. Be it our will. Our desire. Someone else.

.... I can't agree with this, sigh. Choosing between options as to which option you think is the best for you is not a coercion. It is not even an influence.

 

[Kampioen]

That's not what the text says at all. It says specifically, planned, determined and brought about by His hand whatever He wanted done. Acts 4:27,28

God determined to corral the sinners around Christ so that they would fulfill God's intent.

 

[Kampioen]

what is libertarian free will as apposed to just plain old free will

Libertarian free will is plain old free will, ... meaning it is not unconditionally predetemined like a domino effect unconditionally prearranged by God where our thoughts and choice are merely determined by the previous domino.

 

[Presby02]

God determined to corral the sinners around Christ so that they would fulfill God's intent.

How could He be sure they would carry out His intent?

 

[Presby02]

The bible does in every verse that extols HIS goodness, loving kindness and justice...

Really? That proves libertarian free will?

 

[Presby02]

Damnation proves the limits of HIS will - HE cannot abide life with the wicked so if anyone by their free will chooses to rebuke HIM as a false god and to rebuke HIM as their savior from the consequences of sin, HE must let them go into hell by their own will, not by HIS will.

God restrains His power all of the time.

Restraining and giving it up are two different things.

 

[Presby02]

dude, You are just as frustrating as the person in the other thread.

I DID NOT ACCUSE YOU. I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION.

You asked WHY WOULD JESUS NOT SAVE EVERYONE IF HE COULD

you asked WHY, IF HE WILLED EVERYONE TO BE SAVED DOES HE NOT DO IT

My answer is, He will not force you.

( I did not accuse you of doing anything here)

If he forced you to get saved because of his omnipotence (he could if he wanted to) then according to his will. every man woman and child who ever lived would be saved,.

But he will not force them. So not everyone will be saved

So you would not save your child from a burning house if you had to use force?

Is changing your heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh involve force if you did not ask for a change of heart? Is God causing your obedience by changing your heart involve force?

 

[Presby02]

I saw something different

So. No one asked you what you saw.

 

[civic]

Restraining and giving it up are two different things.

I never stated otherwise.

 

[Kampioen]

How could He be sure they would carry out His intent?

God foreknows an open future.

God arranges/appoints the time and place of all things to get His will accomplished, while not hindering the moral aspect of libertarian free will.

Acts 17:26–27 (KJV). And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Genesis 50:20 (KJV). But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Esther 4:14 (KJV). For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and
*who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?*

Exodus 9:16 (KJV). And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

 

[Presby02]

God foreknows an open future.

God arranges/appoints the time and place of all things to get His will accomplished, while not hindering the moral aspect of libertarian free will.

Acts 17:26–27 (KJV). And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Genesis 50:20 (KJV). But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Esther 4:14 (KJV). For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and
*who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?*

Exodus 9:16 (KJV). And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

What does He know about a Open future?

How does He accomplished His will if He has no idea how anyone will choose?

 

[Presby02]

I never stated otherwise.

Good. So while God may restrain His power He never forfeits it.

 

[civic]

Good. So while God may restrain His power He never forfeits it.

Well lets see how this goes with the other 2 "omni's "

Does God restrain his knowledge ?
Does God restrain His presence ?

I'm looking forward to your answers.

 

[JoshebB]

Israel was Gods elect/chosen people. Are you going to deny that ?

That depends on how you define "Israel."

I do not deny the Israel that is Israel is God elect/chosen people/ I completely affirm it. I do deny the Israel that is not Israel was ever God's elect/chosen people.

Jesus tells us they were unwilling.


Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did.

Isaiah 30:9
These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to obey the LORD’s instruction.

Jeremiah 7:25-26
From the day your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets again and again. / Yet they would not listen to Me or incline their ear, but they stiffened their necks and did more evil than their fathers.

Hosea 11:2
But the more I called Israel, the farther they departed from Me. They sacrificed to the Baals and burned incense to carved images.

Isaiah 1:2-4
Listen, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the LORD has spoken: “I have raised children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against Me. / The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master’s manger, but Israel does not know; My people do not understand.” / Alas, O sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children who act corruptly! They have forsaken the LORD; they have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on Him.

Ezekiel 2:3-5
“Son of man,” He said to me, “I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me. To this very day they and their fathers have rebelled against Me. / They are obstinate and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you are to say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says.’ / And whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them.

2 Chronicles 36:15-16
Again and again the LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to His people through His messengers because He had compassion on them and on His dwelling place. / But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.

Jeremiah 25:4-7
And the LORD has sent all His servants the prophets to you again and again, but you have not listened or inclined your ear to hear. / The prophets told you, ‘Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways and deeds, and you can dwell in the land that the LORD has given to you and your fathers forever and ever. / Do not follow other gods to serve and worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands. Then I will do you no harm.’ ...

Nehemiah 9:26
But they were disobedient and rebelled against You; they flung Your law behind their backs. They killed Your prophets, who had admonished them to return to You. They committed terrible blasphemies.

Do you see a common theme with Gods elect/chosen people Israel ?

I do, but I have no clue whether or not it is a common theme you see. Many Christians have a mistaken definition of "Israel." Many, if not most, of them think the word "Israel" is a reference only to a geo-political nation-state but that is rarely the case in scripture.

Define your terms before asking others otherwise meaningless questions.

 

[JoshebB]

I'm glad you admit being chosen/elect of God does not mean anyone is saved.

Don't be snide.

Do you still sin ?

Relevance?

 

[JoshebB]

I'd like an explanation......

If God desires everyone to be saved.....
WHY aren't they?
Is God unable to save everyone even though He wants to?

I just got done answering that question. Go back and re-read my posts, my explanation, and re-read them as many times as it takes to correctly understand what was posted. THEN 1) do not ask me again a question I have already answered and 2) post something that moves the discussion further given the answer to the question asked.

 

[Kampioen]

What does He know about a Open future?

How does He accomplished His will if He has no idea how anyone will choose?

He does know, that's how.

You can throw two dice and roll doubles in an open future. But concerning God it's a paradox. God cannot err in what He foreknows.