civic
Active Member
Ditto
Gods Inability to save
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Dizerner
Active Member
What do you think the purpose of this Libertarianism is?
HIS nature is not against our free will, our ability to sin against HIM...
ImCo:
I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.
HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us was the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!
This implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus upon an ultimate value.
Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of every individual sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...
This implies that GOD would always save anyone who could be saved from their sins to become HIS Bride, and would never condemn them for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.
It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.
By their coming into being every single person must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by a mature free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible. No one inherited any sinfulness from Adam nor any judgement for any another person's sin.
God created us in His image, including libertarian free will, and God wanted people who would freely serve Him.
Dizerner
Active Member
So why did God want his own image do you think? What dictates the range of choices he allows people?
It is ingrained in God's nature to want to create beings like Himself in some way. And the range of His wants, that being one among others are ingrained in His nature.
Why do you ask. What is your answer?
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DavidTree
Active Member
On these forums, you are only the second first person to SEE this = Keep up on the UP
Dizerner
Active Member
Because I think all doctrinal decisions hinge around logic centered in the problem of evil, and I've never seen an exception.
My answer is this—the reason for choice is to glorify God by reflecting an aspect of his image. And the range of choice is dictated by a hierarchical structure that mirrors the priority of God's nature.
All false answers come from putting creation first—even Calvinism in the end puts creation first—and every theodicy that says God created things because of their own priority in some way.
What do you mean by "hierarchical structure" and Calvinism putting creation first?
Dizerner
Active Member
Delegation. Choices influencing other things and creatures having ranks of authority.
Because the Trinity itself is hierarchically structured.
Oh, they talk a big talk, but in the end its really all central to the elect instead of letting God do as he pleases.
I've decided that in HIS image has nothing to do with appearance at all but with the properties / attributes of being a proper bride for HIM. People don't marry lesser beings like animals (usually, sigh) and neither will HE.
And for a true love and a true marriage to occur, the proposal of marriage must have been accepted by a free will desiring the kind of life HE offered with HIM under HIS auspices as described in the gospel and HIS promise of election, Col 1:23.
Unless of course HIS promise of election unto salvation for any and all who put their faith in HIM as LORD and Saviour was central as exactly what HE pleased, the core of HIS gospel to those who had not yet decided what to do about HIS unique proclamation....
So you deny God is omnipotent.
You also assume you understanding of who all refers to in that particular passage.
Yet He does just that. Predetermine sin. See Acts 4:27,28
God determinately corraled the libertarian already haters around Christ to do what they would do.
Acts 2:23 (KJV) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
God didn't just transact them all to heaven. God prefers libertarian free will over sending them all to heaven. That's preference, not lack of omnipotence.
civic
Active Member
Where does the bible say God is omnipotent. All powerful all the time ?
If God hates sin and Jesus defeated sin, the devil and death why do you still sin if you are the temple of God and the Holy Spirit lives in you ?
Your sin is more powerful than God ?
Your will is more powerful than God ?
Your flesh is more powerful than God ?
So God is powerful enough to save you, give you the Holy Spirit but God cannot overcome your sin, desires, flesh , will etc... ?
Omnipotence is a matter of power, not the will. HE has all power to do what HE wants...HE has no power to do evil nor to go uninvited against a free will decision because HE does not will or choose to do these things.
civic
Active Member
ditto
So He has the power to save all but not the will to? I thought He was not willing any should perish?
