The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel

[brightfame52]

No good news for men predestined to destruction. Therefore, there is no gospel for those so predestined.

The preaching of the Gospel in guided providence of God, its going to be either a savor of life unto life, for the saved, or a savor of death unto death to the perishing lost 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Notice the preaching of the cross is to them which are saved, the power of God Rom 1:16 but of you aren't saved, and lost, its foolishness

 

[brightfame52]

One must have faith to be regenerated.

False, the Gospel as a word of salvation, is sent to the regenerated godly heart that fears God, they will hear it and believe.

Peter was sent to the regenerate God fearing Cornelius because of Gods choice so he would hear and believe as per Acts 15:7

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

 

[TomL]

False, the Gospel as a word of salvation, is sent to the regenerated godly heart that fears God, they will hear it and believe.

Peter was sent to the regenerate God fearing Cornelius because of Gods choice so he would hear and believe as per Acts 15:7

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Once again scripture is contrary to your word.

One must have faith to be regenerated.

Receive the Spirit through faith

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Your doctrine is the opposite of scripture.

 

[TomL]

The preaching of the Gospel in guided providence of God, its going to be either a savor of life unto life, for the saved, or a savor of death unto death to the perishing lost 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Notice the preaching of the cross is to them which are saved, the power of God Rom 1:16 but of you aren't saved, and lost, its foolishness

The power of God for those who believe will save

Eph 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 11:25–26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
1 John 5:11–12 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 10:9–10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
Hab 2:4“ Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”
Heb 10:38 But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 6:47T ruly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[brightfame52]

Once again scripture is contrary to your word.

No its not, Im giving you Truth friend

 

[Kampioen]

It doesn't have to. The words "them that fear God" occurs, a synonym because the unregenerate have no fear of God in their eyes

Rom 3:18
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes.

^^These already resisted previous grace. Thus they have no fear of God. ...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Thats why Jesus sent Peter to Cornelius with the Gospel, he feared God

Acts 10 2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Thats regeneration. God gives a heart to fear Him

^^Yes. He responded positively to prevenient grace.

Jer 32 40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

^^This is post-conversion protective fear/grace.

The regenerated are the good ground hearers

Matt 13 23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

^^These are the saved.

 

[brightfame52]

^^These already resisted previous grace. Thus they have no fear of God. ...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Not even related

 

[brightfame52]

^^Yes. He responded positively to prevenient grace.

No he was regenerated, already accepted and saved. God even accepted his prayers, which God doesn't do for the wicked unsaved Acts 10 4

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Peter was given understanding the Cornelius had been accepted of God Acts 10

4 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Those who fear God as Cornelius did way b4 he met Peter, have been saved and accepted with God. Thats who God sends preachers like Peter to send them the word of salvation. God doesn't send a lost person the word of salvation, they lost duh

 

[atpollard]

Once again scripture is contrary to your word.

One must have faith to be regenerated.

Receive the Spirit through faith

I acknowledge from the verses that you quoted that “faith” preceded “receiving the Holy Spirit” (indwelling, surety). My question for you is one of clarification:

Is this “faith” of you, or not of you?

[as in: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” - Ephesians 2:8-9]

 

[brightfame52]

I acknowledge from the verses that you quoted that “faith” preceded “receiving the Holy Spirit” (indwelling, surety). My question for you is one of clarification:

Yeah but thats not regeneration they received. Back early in the ministry of the Apostles hearers may recive the Spirit as a confirmation like when Paul asked these Acts 19 2=6

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Notice Paul already acknowledged them as regenerate believers.

This was a important time in biblical history, transition from the OT to New Covenant times.

 

[atpollard]

Yeah but thats not regeneration they received.

I am content to allow you and he to debate that point without my needing to step in. I was just curious since he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 what he did with the “that not of yourselves” aspect of “salvation” with respect to his views on “faith”. In terms of an “Ordo Salutis”, there are three distinct events/states being discussed (almost interchangeably) in your and his discussion.

• The pre-salvation fallen state in sin and in need of forgiveness.
• The faith/belief that one can be saved.
  • [repentance and baptism which are not really discussed]
• The sealing with the Holy Spirit (a surety guaranteeing the inheritance).

So I wanted to leave you and he to debate the role of the Holy Spirit and Free Will on the pre-salvation state and merely clarify the relationship between “free will” and “not of yourself” on “faith/belief”.

 

[TomL]

I acknowledge from the verses that you quoted that “faith” preceded “receiving the Holy Spirit” (indwelling, surety). My question for you is one of clarification:

Is this “faith” of you, or not of you?

[as in: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” - Ephesians 2:8-9]

The faith is of you.

Salvation is the gift of God.

Faith would be contrary to works

Ephesians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Plain verses

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom 1:16–17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”
Phil 3:9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

 

[Kampioen]

No he was regenerated, already accepted and saved. God even accepted his prayers, which God doesn't do for the wicked unsaved Acts 10 4

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Peter was given understanding the Cornelius had been accepted of God Acts 10

4 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Those who fear God as Cornelius did way b4 he met Peter, have been saved and accepted with God. Thats who God sends preachers like Peter to send them the word of salvation. God doesn't send a lost person the word of salvation, they lost duh

And this is the whole context:

Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, *Cornelius*.

Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Acts 10:5 And now
*send men to Joppa*, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him,
*Send men to Joppa*, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

Acts 11:14 **Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved**.

It literally says when Cornelius was saved ie way later in Acts 11:14.

He was merely an Old Testament style believing gentile that joined with the faithful Jews of the time that were also seeking or needed Jesus.

God doesn't send a lost person the word of salvation, they lost

duh

 

[TomL]

No its not, Im giving you Truth friend

You have ignored scripture once again

Once again scripture is contrary to your word.

One must have faith to be regenerated.

Receive the Spirit through faith

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Your doctrine is the opposite of scripture.

 

[TomL]

And this is the whole context:

Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, *Cornelius*.

Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Acts 10:5 And now
*send men to Joppa*, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him,
*Send men to Joppa*, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

Acts 11:14 **Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved**.

It literally says when Cornelius was saved ie way later in Acts 11:14.

He was merely an Old Testament style believing gentile that joined with the faithful Jews of the time that were also seeking or needed Jesus.

Amen

It literally says when Cornelius was saved later in Acts 11:14.

The unsaved Cornelius was thus spoken of

Acts 10:1–4 (NASB 95) — 1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

 

[atpollard]

The faith is of you.

Salvation is the gift of God.

Faith would be contrary to works

Ephesians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Plain verses

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom 1:16–17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”
Phil 3:9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

OK, thank you for the clarification.

It probably comes as no surprise that I disagree (I believe that God provides everything that we need, including faith), but there is little point in attempting to change either of our minds.

Not to change your mind, but just as a courtesy (since you provided verses) I offer a verse in return …

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [NASB]

 

[TomL]

OK, thank you for the clarification.

It probably comes as no surprise that I disagree (I believe that God provides everything that we need, including faith), but there is little point in attempting to change either of our minds.

Not to change your mind, but just as a courtesy (since you provided verses) I offer a verse in return …

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [NASB]

OK

A New Testament verse

Romans 11:28–32 (NASB 95) — 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

And

1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:5–6 (NASB 95) — 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

 

[brightfame52]

And this is the whole context:

You are wasting my time. Cornelius had a regenerated heart, hence he was already saved, God sent him the Gospel of his salvation so he could believe,

 

[brightfame52]

You have ignored scripture once again

No I havent you have

 

[TomL]

No I havent you have

Again you fail to address scripture

You have ignored scripture once again

Once again scripture is contrary to your word.

One must have faith to be regenerated.

One must receive the Spirit through faith.

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Your doctrine is the opposite of scripture.