God's attribute of Justice demands PSA

101G said:
if this is true then, who is it that sits on the Throne if the Lamb is standing before it. scripture. Revelation 5:1 "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." Revelation 5:2 "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?" Revelation 5:3 "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." Revelation 5:4 "And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." Revelation 5:5 "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." Revelation 5:7 "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

so, you're saying that the Lamb, (Jesus the Christ), stands before the throne, took the book out of the "Father" right hand who sits on the throne .... correct. so the LAMB, is Jesus the Christ ... Right, and the Father sits on the throne?
Click to expand...
Again what do you imagine the problem to be?



101G said:
now one more scripture, chapter 4 before chapter 5. LISTEN CAREFULLY. Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Revelation 4:3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."

ONLY "ONE" PERSON SITS ON THE THRONE, and you said the Lord Jesus is the LAMB standing before the Throne, and he who sits on the THRONE is the Father, Correct. well let's see something. because Revelation 4:11 clearly states, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." ok, if this is the Father who sits on the Throne and the Son, the Lamb Jesus is standing before the throne. 101G question to You is this, "WHO GAVE THE FATHER, (THE ONE SITTING ON THE THRONE), POWER?" read Revelation 4:11, for it clearly states the Lord, who is Jesus setting on the throne. and if you say it's the Father, Revelation 4:11 states he who sat on the throne was GIVEN POWER. and as 101G asked, "WHO GAVE THE FATHER POWER, IF IT'S THE FATHER SITTING ON THE THRONE?", book chapter and verse please. and when you give that book chapter and verse then we will know who face is seen. your answer please.

101G.
Click to expand...
Again what do you imagine the problem to be
 
civic said:
Remind me :)
Click to expand...
The FATHER and the SON merge as ONE and it starts in Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it = One Throne
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Why does the Scripture say "the Lord God" ???
Answer: Because no one comes to the Father/God but thru the Son/Lord

Today's Trivia Question = Where is the Holy Spirit as pertaining to this discussion(Revelation)?
 
civic said:
Remind me :)
Click to expand...
"Remind me" and/or 'refresh my mind' = i love this phrase

i love this phrase amongst Brethren because it shows a eagerness and desire to hear from God spoken out of the mouth of "babes in Christ"

We should always be thirsty when in each others company for within each of us who are in Christ, the Holy Spirit is there to 'remind' us.

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Remind them of these things

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
 
101G said:
to all,
take note...... there is no "Lamb of God in heaven", but there is a Lamb in heaven..... (smile).

101G
Click to expand...
Oh-then I guess we can throw these out-

Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Joh_1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Who is the same in Rev. Scriptures rightly cutting straight.
 
dizerner said:
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne. (Ps. 89:14 NKJ)

Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3 NKJ)

Now if God designates one consequence of sin for one sinner, and a completely different consequence of the exact same sin for a different sinner, he has created an inequity of justice that is often condemned in Scripture:

Diverse weights and diverse measures, They are both alike, an abomination to the LORD. (Prov. 20:10 NKJ)

13 "You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a light.
14 "You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small.
15 "You shall have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure, that your days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
16 "For all who do such things, all who behave unrighteously, are an abomination to the LORD your God. (Deut. 25:13-16 NKJ)

Now God is not a hypocrite: if he cares about unequal weights in such small matters as day to day transactions, how much more unequal punishments for far more serious sins against a holy God?

A heavy weight for sinners but a light weight for Christ?
A large weight for sinners but a small weight for Christ?
A second death for sinners but only a first death for Christ?
Wrath for every sinner but absolutely no wrath for Christ?

Denying PSA violates God's fundamental attribute of Justice.

There is a reason even humans in their sense of legality have a saying that "justice is blind" and show equal weights:

View attachment 227
Click to expand...
Christ voluntarily went to the Cross to save us, as our Expiation. Where do you see different weights being used there?

Propitiation, on the other hand, is paganistic wherein a pagan god seeks retribution on an innocent victim.
 
DavidTree said:
The FATHER and the SON merge as ONE and it starts in Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it = One Throne
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Why does the Scripture say "the Lord God" ???
Answer: Because no one comes to the Father/God but thru the Son/Lord

Today's Trivia Question = Where is the Holy Spirit as pertaining to this discussion(Revelation)?
Click to expand...
The parallel use of Him to refer to two people in Rev 20:6 proves Rev 22:3 refers to both Jesus and the Father.

  1. Both are co-recipients of worship Heb 1:6; Rev 5:11-14; Matt 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Rev 19:10
  2. Both are co-recipients of the kind of "service" that is only allowed to God: Matt 4:10; Rev 22:3f Greek--latreuo)
  3. Notice the identical structure in Rev 20:6 speaks of Christ or both, but not the Father alone. "but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev 20:6
  4. Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 have the Father and the Son referred to as the singular "him". This shows the unity between the two.
  5. Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 use the singular HIM to refer to both the Father and the Son.
  6. Now Notice Rev 20:4, "reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
  7. What this means is that Rev 20:6 sets up a precedent that when two are mentioned, if it refers to only one of either the Father or the Son, it must refer to the latter!
  8. This means that, based upon the example of Rev 20:6, the one we are said to serve in Rev 22:3 is Christ.
  9. Of course we believe the singular refers to both, but Jehovah's Witnesses twist the passage to refer to only one. We are merely proving that if the singular "serve Him" rather than "serve them" refers to only one, it would be the last one mentioned... the Son. This is exactly what happens in Rev 20:6.
  10. The Jehovah’s Witnesses completely ignore this fact and claim that Rev 22:3 excludes Christ. They don’t comprehend the irrefutable power of the pattern of "singular use" in the Book of Revelation and specifically Rev 20:6.

The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21; 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones." This is a fatal blow to JW’s who would logically expect there to be two thrones. They just cannot understand how the father and son are sitting on ONE throne at the same time. Also we see the following regarding the One God seen in the passages of Revelation as the Father/Son. We see the singular face that they see not faces faces. Both are sitting on the throne, it is obvious they see the faces of both at the same time. Both the Father and the Son' name is marked on the their foreheads in Rev 3:12 and 14:1) But we also see in 22:4 uses the singular His name on their foreheads. In Rev 14:1 we see the plural names but in Rev 22 the singular name is used. . Also in 22:5 the Father and Son together reign forever and in 20:6 the singular Him is applied to the Father/Son, because they are the One God. We see the plurality of the Godhead in display throughout the book of Revelation and that One God who is 3 Persons being described in the singular many times. Believers worship the one God on the One throne with the name of the Father/Son on their foreheads worshiping Him(Father and Son). They see His face (Father/Son). We also see Jesus tell us the same thing in Matt 28:19 when He declares to His Disciples to baptize them(plural) in the name(singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. #3 Distinct Persons, One name, One God. This is exactly what we see in the book of Revelation.

hope this helps,
 
civic said:
The parallel use of Him to refer to two people in Rev 20:6 proves Rev 22:3 refers to both Jesus and the Father.

  1. Both are co-recipients of worship Heb 1:6; Rev 5:11-14; Matt 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Rev 19:10
  2. Both are co-recipients of the kind of "service" that is only allowed to God: Matt 4:10; Rev 22:3f Greek--latreuo)
  3. Notice the identical structure in Rev 20:6 speaks of Christ or both, but not the Father alone. "but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev 20:6
  4. Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 have the Father and the Son referred to as the singular "him". This shows the unity between the two.
  5. Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 use the singular HIM to refer to both the Father and the Son.
  6. Now Notice Rev 20:4, "reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
  7. What this means is that Rev 20:6 sets up a precedent that when two are mentioned, if it refers to only one of either the Father or the Son, it must refer to the latter!
  8. This means that, based upon the example of Rev 20:6, the one we are said to serve in Rev 22:3 is Christ.
  9. Of course we believe the singular refers to both, but Jehovah's Witnesses twist the passage to refer to only one. We are merely proving that if the singular "serve Him" rather than "serve them" refers to only one, it would be the last one mentioned... the Son. This is exactly what happens in Rev 20:6.
  10. The Jehovah’s Witnesses completely ignore this fact and claim that Rev 22:3 excludes Christ. They don’t comprehend the irrefutable power of the pattern of "singular use" in the Book of Revelation and specifically Rev 20:6.

The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21; 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones." This is a fatal blow to JW’s who would logically expect there to be two thrones. They just cannot understand how the father and son are sitting on ONE throne at the same time. Also we see the following regarding the One God seen in the passages of Revelation as the Father/Son. We see the singular face that they see not faces faces. Both are sitting on the throne, it is obvious they see the faces of both at the same time. Both the Father and the Son' name is marked on the their foreheads in Rev 3:12 and 14:1) But we also see in 22:4 uses the singular His name on their foreheads. In Rev 14:1 we see the plural names but in Rev 22 the singular name is used. . Also in 22:5 the Father and Son together reign forever and in 20:6 the singular Him is applied to the Father/Son, because they are the One God. We see the plurality of the Godhead in display throughout the book of Revelation and that One God who is 3 Persons being described in the singular many times. Believers worship the one God on the One throne with the name of the Father/Son on their foreheads worshiping Him(Father and Son). They see His face (Father/Son). We also see Jesus tell us the same thing in Matt 28:19 when He declares to His Disciples to baptize them(plural) in the name(singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. #3 Distinct Persons, One name, One God. This is exactly what we see in the book of Revelation.

hope this helps,
Click to expand...
Wow. Excellent analysis!
 
synergy said:
Christ voluntarily went to the Cross to save us, as our Expiation. Where do you see different weights being used there?

Propitiation, on the other hand, is paganistic wherein a pagan god seeks retribution on an innocent victim.
Click to expand...
Propitiation, on the other hand, is paganistic wherein a pagan god seeks retribution on an innocent victim
Click to expand...

Where in the world did you get that 'propitiation of sins' is paganistic?

1 John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:23-26 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 2:17 - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 4:10 - In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
 
civic said:
The parallel use of Him to refer to two people in Rev 20:6 proves Rev 22:3 refers to both Jesus and the Father.

  1. Both are co-recipients of worship Heb 1:6; Rev 5:11-14; Matt 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Rev 19:10
  2. Both are co-recipients of the kind of "service" that is only allowed to God: Matt 4:10; Rev 22:3f Greek--latreuo)
  3. Notice the identical structure in Rev 20:6 speaks of Christ or both, but not the Father alone. "but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev 20:6
  4. Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 have the Father and the Son referred to as the singular "him". This shows the unity between the two.
  5. Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 use the singular HIM to refer to both the Father and the Son.
  6. Now Notice Rev 20:4, "reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
  7. What this means is that Rev 20:6 sets up a precedent that when two are mentioned, if it refers to only one of either the Father or the Son, it must refer to the latter!
  8. This means that, based upon the example of Rev 20:6, the one we are said to serve in Rev 22:3 is Christ.
  9. Of course we believe the singular refers to both, but Jehovah's Witnesses twist the passage to refer to only one. We are merely proving that if the singular "serve Him" rather than "serve them" refers to only one, it would be the last one mentioned... the Son. This is exactly what happens in Rev 20:6.
  10. The Jehovah’s Witnesses completely ignore this fact and claim that Rev 22:3 excludes Christ. They don’t comprehend the irrefutable power of the pattern of "singular use" in the Book of Revelation and specifically Rev 20:6.

The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21; 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones." This is a fatal blow to JW’s who would logically expect there to be two thrones. They just cannot understand how the father and son are sitting on ONE throne at the same time. Also we see the following regarding the One God seen in the passages of Revelation as the Father/Son. We see the singular face that they see not faces faces. Both are sitting on the throne, it is obvious they see the faces of both at the same time. Both the Father and the Son' name is marked on the their foreheads in Rev 3:12 and 14:1) But we also see in 22:4 uses the singular His name on their foreheads. In Rev 14:1 we see the plural names but in Rev 22 the singular name is used. . Also in 22:5 the Father and Son together reign forever and in 20:6 the singular Him is applied to the Father/Son, because they are the One God. We see the plurality of the Godhead in display throughout the book of Revelation and that One God who is 3 Persons being described in the singular many times. Believers worship the one God on the One throne with the name of the Father/Son on their foreheads worshiping Him(Father and Son). They see His face (Father/Son). We also see Jesus tell us the same thing in Matt 28:19 when He declares to His Disciples to baptize them(plural) in the name(singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. #3 Distinct Persons, One name, One God. This is exactly what we see in the book of Revelation.

hope this helps,
Click to expand...
Excellent -ty

You missed one

Rev 21:22 - But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple(single)

You can now ask jws Whose Temple are you worshipping in?

Don't skip out on Today's Trivia Question:
Where is the Holy Spirit as pertaining to this discussion(Revelation)?
 
DavidTree said:
Where in the world did you get that 'propitiation of sins' is paganistic?

1 John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:23-26 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 2:17 - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 4:10 - In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Click to expand...
 
DavidTree said:
Where in the world did you get that 'propitiation of sins' is paganistic?

1 John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:23-26 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 2:17 - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 4:10 - In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Click to expand...
Here's another explanation on a less scholastic, more street-brawling level:

https://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2012/02/14/the-difference-between-expiation-and-propitiation-or-how-the-kjv-blew-it/
 
synergy said:
Click to expand...
Does not matter what word is used as they all are the same:

Someone had to APPEASE God for the SINS of the World.

Since no one could, God did it Himself.

Ezekiel 21:17 - “I will also clap My hands together, and I will appease My wrath; I, the LORD, have spoken.”

Zech 6:8 - "Then He called out to me and spoke to me, saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”

English​

Verb​

(appeas)
  • To make quiet; to calm; to reduce to a state of peace; to dispel (anger or hatred).to appease the tumult of the ocean
  • * 1897 , (Bram Stoker), (Dracula) Chapter 21`First, a little refreshment to reward my exertions. You may as well be quiet. It is not the first time, or the second, that your veins have appeased my thirst!'
  • To come to terms with; to adapt to the demands of.They appeased the angry gods with burnt offerings.

Synonyms​

* (reduce to a state of peace) calm, pacify, placate, quell, quiet, still, lull* (come to terms with) mollify, propitiate

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied/appeased.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

This is why the Scripture says: HE is our Peace

Christ pleased God thru His suffering to death on the Cross which appeased (made Propitiation) God's Wrath that was upon us. - Ephesians ch2
 
DavidTree said:
Excellent -ty

You missed one

Rev 21:22 - But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple(single)

You can now ask jws Whose Temple are you worshipping in?

Don't skip out on Today's Trivia Question:
Where is the Holy Spirit as pertaining to this discussion(Revelation)?
Click to expand...
The ministry of the HS is to point us to Christ. That’s not necessary in eternity :). He will be with us and plays a different role from the Father and Son. :)

The Spirit and the bride say come :)
 
DavidTree said:
Does not matter what word is used as they all are the same:

Someone had to APPEASE God for the SINS of the World.

Since no one could, God did it Himself.

Ezekiel 21:17 - “I will also clap My hands together, and I will appease My wrath; I, the LORD, have spoken.”

Zech 6:8 - "Then He called out to me and spoke to me, saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”

English​

Verb​

(appeas)
  • To make quiet; to calm; to reduce to a state of peace; to dispel (anger or hatred).to appease the tumult of the ocean
  • * 1897 , (Bram Stoker), (Dracula) Chapter 21`First, a little refreshment to reward my exertions. You may as well be quiet. It is not the first time, or the second, that your veins have appeased my thirst!'
  • To come to terms with; to adapt to the demands of.They appeased the angry gods with burnt offerings.

Synonyms​

* (reduce to a state of peace) calm, pacify, placate, quell, quiet, still, lull* (come to terms with) mollify, propitiate

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied/appeased.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

This is why the Scripture says: HE is our Peace

Christ pleased God thru His suffering to death on the Cross which appeased (made Propitiation) God's Wrath that was upon us. - Ephesians ch2
Click to expand...
I wrote a thesis paper on this. It’s on this forum. I address it in great detail here

 
civic said:
The ministry of the HS is to point us to Christ. That’s not necessary in eternity :). He will be with us and plays a different role from the Father and Son. :)

The Spirit and the bride say come :)
Click to expand...

The Spirit and the bride say come
Click to expand...
ABSOLUTELY Correct

That’s not necessary in eternity
Click to expand...

ABSOLUTELY incorrect

The HOLY SPIRIT is as absolute in Eternity as He is now = thus it is written "and the Spirit and the Bride say come"

This scripture is another irrevocable Truth that exposes the Falsehood of pre-trib
 
DavidTree said:
ABSOLUTELY Correct



ABSOLUTELY incorrect

The HOLY SPIRIT is as absolute in Eternity as He is now = thus it is written "and the Spirit and the Bride say come"

This scripture is another irrevocable Truth that exposes the Falsehood of pre-trib
Click to expand...
The HS is there obviously but with a different role than He has now. That’s what I meant.
 

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