Answering some objections to a true atonement

[Clifford]

Okay I think I've done enough damage here for one day. You guys have a good one.

 

[Predestined]

If you discuss the poster and not the issue and mud sling the posts will be deleted. Let’s all try to remember the golden rule principle and not attack the other person but their argument.

 

[Clifford]

If you discuss the poster and not the issue and mud sling the posts will be deleted. Let’s all try to remember the golden rule principle and not attack the other person but their argument.

No problem I can do that.

 

[civic]

No problem I can do that.

Thank you we appreciate that @Clifford.

 

[civic]

Yes I should have copied and pasted the whole book. You can say whatever you like and it's too bad you're unhappy with my post but I gave the reference where it came from and quoted what was in it. I'm fine with it.

The same “ rules “ apply when they rip out a verse from Isaiah 53 and disregard the “ context “ from the rest of the Bible .

A text without the context is a pretext for a proof text . It’s called proof texting which is the opposite of biblical exegesis.

PSA entire doctrine is built upon one verse in Isaiah 53 disregarding the entire NT interpretation of Isaiah 53 and the atonement. It’s shaky ground at best.

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

4. This means God can't run the universe anymore.

Death is not "ceasing to exist," but a change in ontos (mode of being), and spiritual death is relationally experiencing the negative aspects of God. God experiencing a negative relation to himself does not entail the loss of his attributes.

5. Physical death is the only price of sin.

This is just not Biblical. Else everyone pays their debt upon death. There is a second death.

6. But Jesus was a sinless person so he could physically die for us.

God did not tell Adam, "in the day you eat of it, you will die if you are sinless." The wages of sin is death, so sinlessness prohibits dying.

was not Adam sinless, before he began to died in sin, which came physical death?. and true, death is not ceasing to exist, but it is a progressive neutralizer of existence. but, our bodies .... DIE. . for the wages of sin is death, which starts with just one act, in a series of acts of sin, which produce death.... better known as "spots" or wrinkles... yes the result is death. but was this change necessary to comes, after sin.? supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:" 1 Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

this is why God made the creature vanity, and subject the same in hope, see Romans 8:20-25.

101G.

 

[civic]

Does a God with wrath against sin come from paganism?

Yes or no.

equivocting again I see. Gods wrath needing to be appeased is pagan as I have demonstrated via many historical sources in the PSA threads. Also a false god being angry with himself- god is another pagan idea pouring his vengeance on his own being is another anti- biblcal and pagan concept- appeasing the angry gods.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The reason we feel passionately about it is because Scripture completely supports it.

thats the same thing the calvinist claims about tulip, the JW about Jesus, the Mormon, the Catholic about their beliefs. The same with you and PSA. Its unbiblical and not supported with Scripture but eisegesis just like the other above mentioned heresies. You are passionate about the false teaching of kenosis. Passion does not equal truth.

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

thats the same thing the calvinist claims about tulip, the JW about Jesus, the Mormon, the Catholic about their beliefs. The same with you and PSA. Its unbiblical and not supported with Scripture but eisegesis just like the other above mentioned heresies. You are passionate about the false teaching of kenosis. Passion does not equal truth.

hope this helps !!!

Passion does not equal truth? how so?
101G.

 

[Dizerner]

thats the same thing the calvinist claims about tulip, the JW about Jesus, the Mormon, the Catholic about their beliefs. The same with you and PSA. Its unbiblical and not supported with Scripture but eisegesis just like the other above mentioned heresies. You are passionate about the false teaching of kenosis. Passion does not equal truth.

hope this helps !!!

Twisting what I said.

You really should stop doing that.

 

[Dizerner]

Refuting the cut/paste objections above with the real atonement here.

False accuser: nothing I wrote was cut and pasted, and this is rich from the king of cut and paste more than anyone.

These are all adequately answered, and bumping because people need to stop using them.

 

[Dizerner]

equivocting again I see

You never answered the question with a simple yes or no.

You only want genetic fallacies when it suits you.

 

[civic]

You never answered the question with a simple yes or no.

You only want genetic fallacies when it suits you.

its called a loaded question fallacy- I gave the biblical response.

 

[civic]

PSA misuses Scripture, reflects the values of a bygone medieval Western culture obsessed with guilt and justice, and poorly commends Christianity to a postmodern world more interested in relationships and healing. The strongest objections are these four, the answers to which are included:

1. PSA harmfully presents God as being angry. The strongest opponents assert that the atonement was non-penal and was, in fact, God’s repudiation of anger and wrath in dealing with sin. To the contrary, however, the Bible is filled with hundreds of expressions of God’s holy anger against sin (see, for instance, Isa. 51:22; Hos. 8:5; Matt. 18:34; Rom. 1:18; and Rev. 19:13–15). According to the Bible, God’s wrath is the right response of holiness to sin (1 Kings 8:46; Hab. 1:13). John Stott has written, “The wrath of God … is his steady, unrelenting, unremitting, uncompromising antagonism to evil in all its forms and manifestations.”

2. PSA wrongly assumes retributive justice on God’s part, whereas God rejects the idea of responding to evil with evil. In reply, the Bible repeatedly depicts retributive justice on God’s part, in both Old and New Testaments. Examples include Noah’s flood, God’s judgment on Achan (Josh. 7:25–26), the slaying of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:9), the fall of Jerusalem to the siege engines of Nebuchadnezzar, and the final judgment that follows the return of Jesus Christ (2 Thess. 1:7–9). Of this, the writer of Hebrews asks, “How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?” (Heb. 2:3), and further declares, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:31).

3. PSA teaches that God punishes his innocent Son for sins he did not even commit. This imagines a breakdown in the inner-Trinitarian fellowship of God and presents God as a monster who promotes violence as the answer to problems. The chief answer to this criticism is the doctrine of the Trinity itself, for the atonement is not presented as a violent act afflicted by the Father against the Son, but rather a saving work planned and achieved by the Father and Son working together for the salvation of the elect (John 6:38; 10:18; Gal. 2:20). Likewise, in the co-inhering unity of the Trinity, God the Father suffered the cross together with his Son. The cross was, in fact, the farthest thing from “cosmic child-abuse,” since no abused child rejoices to suffer his father’s wrath, as Jesus did because of his delight in delivering his people from the just penalty of their sins (Matt. 1:21; Heb. 12:3).

4. PSA involves a violation of the very ethics of peace and love that Jesus taught. Chalke writes, “It makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies and to refuse to repay evil with evil.” “Such a criticism is profoundly perverse,” J. I. Packer answers, “for it shrinks God the Creator into the image of man the creature.”12 Moreover, the basis of the Christian ethic of love is God’s perfect justice in judging sinners. Thus Paul told Christians “never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay,’ says the Lord” (Rom. 12:19). We are to do as God says and not to do as God does, since he alone is God and thus is equipped to judge truly and rightly.

From What is Atonement by Richard Phillips

Amen !

 

[civic]

I see.

Without paying for them?

I said this :

Christ covers my sins, expiates them. Passed over them, forgave them.

He also ransomed them. He is my substitute.

And here is why:

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

conclusion: my view is 100% biblical according to the One who made atonement for sin- The Son.

hope this helps !!!