God's attribute of Justice demands PSA

[DavidTree]

I agree that we were sinners, deserving of wrath. However even YOU will not claim that we actually RECEIVED God’s wrath at any time in the past (do you?).

Therefore, I do not see how the reality of Ephesians 2 somehow abrogates the reality of Ezekiel 18. God has stated, and I have believed Him, that “if a wicked man” [I was a wicked man, so I qualify] “turns from all his sins” [which is what Ephesians 2:1-10 describes the HOW we do such a thing, and I did it … or more accurately, God did it in me] then “none of the transgressions which he” [that is me] “has committed will be remembered”.

• [Ezekiel 18:19-23 NKJV] 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?”

If I am in error in understanding what God has so clearly explained, then it is your responsibility to explain my error to me from the Word of God and exegesis of that word. Just saying “go study more” leaves a fellow Christian in error. I have searched for the passage to prove that the Father poured the wrath that God intended for me onto Jesus Christ. I was taught that from the pulpit by godly men. I did not abandon that teaching lightly. However, I cannot find anything in SCRIPTURE that states or even suggests that any su

ch transaction took place except a single verse in a prophesy that actually states that the PEOPLE considered Him stricken by God … which is exactly what happened at Golgotha: the mocking crowds CONSIDERED Jesus to be a blasphemer being punished by God for HIS sins … but we know the people were wrong in their thinking (although the prophesy was correct in its prediction).

So why is Ezekiel 18‘s “not remembered” untrue and the ”invisible passage” about God the Father pouring the wrath that we would have received on God the Son true?

I do not deny that Christ is the atonement, I just cannot find any verse on the Wrath of the God directed at anyone except unrepentant sinners.

@atpollard says: "I cannot find anything in SCRIPTURE that states or even suggests that any such transaction took place"

REALLY???

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation magnifies the suffering of MESSIAH/God's Only Begotten Son, QUENCHED the fires of Hell for us who have have received from Christ the Punishment that He took upon Himself for our sins.

Departing from "it is written" concerning Christ's suffering and WHY He suffered is not a safe path to go down.

On the 7th Day God Rested = from WHAT???

attention @Brakelite

 

[101G]

Good Morning,

The WORD that was God always Existed = the WORD is God = Eternal Elohim

Correct: The WORD took on flesh = the WORD was not created = "the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us"

thank you. the Word of God is GOD, John 1:1c. (Same one person). many still cannot understand that God is the ECHAD of HIMSELF in Flesh.

be blessed.

101G.

 

[DavidTree]

thank you. the Word of God is GOD, John 1:1c. (Same one person). many still cannot understand that God is the ECHAD of HIMSELF in Flesh.

be blessed.

101G.

Not "same one person" but same Echad Elohim

Please read Exodus ch3

 

[101G]

Not "same one person" but same Echad Elohim

Please read Exodus ch3

STOP, just STOP. if the Lord Jesus is "OF" and NOT "FROM" God but "OF" God then he's the same one Person. did you still not understand? once more, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First, the "LORD" is ..... "WITH" the, the, the LAST is not two persons. listen, the same one person. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
I ALSO? "I" is a single person designation. and the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. the ECHAD of first and last right before your eyes.

if you cannot grasp this, then it's not for you right now.

101G.

 

[DavidTree]

STOP, just STOP. if the Lord Jesus is "OF" and NOT "FROM" God but "OF" God then he's the same one Person. did you still not understand? once more, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First, the "LORD" is ..... "WITH" the, the, the LAST is not two persons. listen, the same one person. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
I ALSO? "I" is a single person designation. and the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. the ECHAD of first and last right before your eyes.

if you cannot grasp this, then it's not for you right now.

101G.

Are you able to seek the understanding of the Declaration of Elohim from Genesis???

 

[Johann]

STOP, just STOP. if the Lord Jesus is "OF" and NOT "FROM" God but "OF" God then he's the same one Person. did you still not understand? once more, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First, the "LORD" is ..... "WITH" the, the, the LAST is not two persons. listen, the same one person. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
I ALSO? "I" is a single person designation. and the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. the ECHAD of first and last right before your eyes.

if you cannot grasp this, then it's not for you right now.

101G.

In the beginning recalls the creation story of Genesis, but speaks more clearly of the
Creator Himself. Furthermore, while Genesis spoke of the first creation, this “Prologue”
of John (vv. 1–18) reveals the new creation in Christ.
Was the Word (Gr. logos): The Word is the eternal Son of God. Was indicates
existence without reference to a starting point and emphasizes the Word's eternal
existence without beginning. Logos can mean “wisdom,” “reason,” and “action” as well as
“word,” all of which are attributes of the Son of God. The Word was with God: With
shows that the Word—the Son of God—is a distinct Person from the Father and that He is
in eternal communion with the Father. The Word was God: The Word—the Son of God
—is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father; He Himself is God with the same divinity as
the Father. Some twist and mistranslate this phrase “the Word was a god” in order to
propagate their heresy that the Son of God is a created being, a creature not fully divine.
Such a translation is unsupportable, false, dishonest, and deceptive.

 

[Johann]

It is accepted that in this scripture passage, the "angel(messenger) of the Lord is Jesus.

Correct-
The word מלאך (mal'akh) has the root meaning of to send and does not denote the nature of the one sent. The meaning ranges from messenger to envoy.

Function or Nature?
Who or what the one sent is cannot be determined from the word מלאך because it only describes the function of the sent one. Joshua's spies are called מלאכים in Joshua 6:17, 25 because they were sent. By nature they were human but the word describes their function. The same is true of the The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה). His function was to be sent but, as many texts show his nature is deity. He is from YHWH (יהוה) and yet he is one with YHWH (יהוה).

"Hear Oh Israel, YHWH (יהוה) is our God, YHWH (יהוה) is echad!"
The unity of God is one of complexity. God is unseen and yet seen, omnipresent and yet localized. Not man and yet became man.

YHWH (יהוה)
Seen, yet not seen.

Not seen.
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.”
...“you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
(ויאמר לא תוכל לראת את-פני כי לא-יראני האדם וחי)
...and while my glory passes by... but my face shall not be seen.”
Yet seen
Exodus 33:11 Thus YHWH (יהוה) used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
(וגבר יהוה אל-משה פנים אל פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל-רעהו)

Seen by: Hagar
ותקרא שם-יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי
Genesis 16:7-14
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) found her...

And he said, “Hagar...
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) also said to her,
“I will surely multiply your offspring...”
Hagar recognised that it was God speaking to her.
So she called the name of YHWH (יהוה) who spoke to her,
“You are a God of seeing,” for she said,
“Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.
” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi (באר לחי ראי)
Seen by: Abraham

Genesis 22:11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17–18
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) speaks to Abraham:

Malakh YHWH (יהוה) called to [Abraham]... He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.

The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) identifies himself as YHWH (יהוה)

...the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) called to Abraham a second time... and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares YHWH (יהוה), because you ... have not withheld your son, your only son, ...I will greatly bless you... because you have obeyed my voice.”

Whose voice?

The one speaking - the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה), who is YHWH (יהוה)

Genesis 18-19

Genesis 18 begins by saying YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham (וירא אליו יהוה).
Genesis 18:2 tells us how YHWH (יהוה) appeared to him.

He raised his eyes (וישא עיניו) and saw three men (וירא והנה שלשה אנשים).

It is interesting that in Genesis 18:3 he addresses one of the men using the title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) reserved only for YHWH (אדנָ֗י אם-נא מצאתי חן בעיניך אל-נא תעבר מעל עבדך)

And we know he is addressing one of the men because it's all masculine singular.

It's only in Genesis 18:4-5 that he addresses all three (רחצו רגליכם והשענו).

So in this introduction we are informed that

YHWH appeared to Abraham.

Of the three men Abraham addressed,

one is Adonay (אדנָ֗י), a title reserved exclusively for YHWH.

The three remain under the tree and are entertained by Abraham (Genesis 18:8).

(ויקח חמאה וחלב ובן-הבקר אשר עשה ויתן לפניהם והוא עמד עליהם תחת העץ ויאכלו)

They ask where Sarah might be and then one of them, YHWH (יהוה) speaks in Genesis 18:9 and says he will return the following year. (ויאמרו אליו איה שרה אשתך ויאמר הנה באהל)

We know it's YHWH because Genesis 21:1-2 tells us

"So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him."

Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent.

Who was she listening to?

The three men under the tree,

One of whom was Adonay (אדנָ֗י).

When she laughed at what God had just said to Abraham, the identity of Adonay was made plain in Genesis 18:13,

"YHWH (יהוה) said to Abraham..." (ויאמר יהוה אל-אברהם)

The three men got up to go in Genesis 18:16

and Abraham walked with them (ויקמו משם האנשים וישקפו ואברהם הלך עמם).

YHWH (יהוה) spoke again from Genesis 18:17 (ויהוה אמר וינר יהוה).

Genesis 18:22 tells us that:

The men turned away towards Sodom (ויפנו משם האנשים וילכו סדמה) but Abraham stayed with YHWH (יהוה) (ואברהם עודנו עמד לפמני יהוה)

How do we know only two left?

Because Genesis 19:1 tells us that two messengers (שני המלאכים שני) arrived at Sodom.

Where was the third?

Back with Abraham obviously.

After some haggling about Sodom YHWH (יהוה) eventually left and Abraham returned to his tent (וילך יהוה).

God walked off to join the others.

YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) is mentioned then in Genesis 19:17 outside Sodom where he has rejoined the other two (ויאמר המלט).

Lot answered Adonay (אדנָ֗י), "... no my Lord..." ( אל-נא אדנָ֗י).

Genesis 19:19 contains words in the masculine singular.

Lot pleads with YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) .
Then in Genesis 19:24

YHWH (יהוה), one of the men, addressed earlier with the divine title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) is described as... YHWH (יהוה).

And YHWH (יהוה) standing there causes fire to rain down from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.





YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham as Adonay (אדנָ֗י), one of the three men, to speak about the promised son and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. His appearance is human and according to Genesis 19:24 he is separate from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.

And YHWH (יהוה) - subject of the sentence

...caused it to rain (המטיר - hifil, causative sense) on Sodom and Gomorrah...

from YHWH (יהוה) - מאת יהוה - direct object את of the sentence with preposition מן pointing to source)

...out of heaven (מן השמים - and the origin).

YHWH (יהוה) is the subject

standing and speaking with Lot

and he causes it to rain fire etc

from another source, heaven

and another object who is also YHWH (יהוה).

The one YHWH (יהוה) is the subject of the sentence

who directs another called YHWH (יהוה)

who is in another location (השמים) to cause the action.

Subject (יהוה) - Action: caused rain (המטיר) - Object and source: (מאת יהוה) - Location (מן השמים)

Who is Malakh YHWH?

fireprior.com

 

[DavidTree]

Correct-
The word מלאך (mal'akh) has the root meaning of to send and does not denote the nature of the one sent. The meaning ranges from messenger to envoy.

Function or Nature?
Who or what the one sent is cannot be determined from the word מלאך because it only describes the function of the sent one. Joshua's spies are called מלאכים in Joshua 6:17, 25 because they were sent. By nature they were human but the word describes their function. The same is true of the The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה). His function was to be sent but, as many texts show his nature is deity. He is from YHWH (יהוה) and yet he is one with YHWH (יהוה).

"Hear Oh Israel, YHWH (יהוה) is our God, YHWH (יהוה) is echad!"
The unity of God is one of complexity. God is unseen and yet seen, omnipresent and yet localized. Not man and yet became man.

YHWH (יהוה)
Seen, yet not seen.

Not seen.
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.”
...“you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
(ויאמר לא תוכל לראת את-פני כי לא-יראני האדם וחי)
...and while my glory passes by... but my face shall not be seen.”
Yet seen
Exodus 33:11 Thus YHWH (יהוה) used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
(וגבר יהוה אל-משה פנים אל פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל-רעהו)

Seen by: Hagar
ותקרא שם-יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי
Genesis 16:7-14
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) found her...

And he said, “Hagar...
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) also said to her,
“I will surely multiply your offspring...”
Hagar recognised that it was God speaking to her.
So she called the name of YHWH (יהוה) who spoke to her,
“You are a God of seeing,” for she said,
“Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.
” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi (באר לחי ראי)
Seen by: Abraham

Genesis 22:11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17–18
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) speaks to Abraham:

Malakh YHWH (יהוה) called to [Abraham]... He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.

The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) identifies himself as YHWH (יהוה)

...the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) called to Abraham a second time... and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares YHWH (יהוה), because you ... have not withheld your son, your only son, ...I will greatly bless you... because you have obeyed my voice.”

Whose voice?

The one speaking - the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה), who is YHWH (יהוה)

Genesis 18-19

Genesis 18 begins by saying YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham (וירא אליו יהוה).
Genesis 18:2 tells us how YHWH (יהוה) appeared to him.

He raised his eyes (וישא עיניו) and saw three men (וירא והנה שלשה אנשים).

It is interesting that in Genesis 18:3 he addresses one of the men using the title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) reserved only for YHWH (אדנָ֗י אם-נא מצאתי חן בעיניך אל-נא תעבר מעל עבדך)

And we know he is addressing one of the men because it's all masculine singular.

It's only in Genesis 18:4-5 that he addresses all three (רחצו רגליכם והשענו).

So in this introduction we are informed that

YHWH appeared to Abraham.

Of the three men Abraham addressed,

one is Adonay (אדנָ֗י), a title reserved exclusively for YHWH.

The three remain under the tree and are entertained by Abraham (Genesis 18:8).

(ויקח חמאה וחלב ובן-הבקר אשר עשה ויתן לפניהם והוא עמד עליהם תחת העץ ויאכלו)

They ask where Sarah might be and then one of them, YHWH (יהוה) speaks in Genesis 18:9 and says he will return the following year. (ויאמרו אליו איה שרה אשתך ויאמר הנה באהל)

We know it's YHWH because Genesis 21:1-2 tells us

"So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him."

Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent.

Who was she listening to?

The three men under the tree,

One of whom was Adonay (אדנָ֗י).

When she laughed at what God had just said to Abraham, the identity of Adonay was made plain in Genesis 18:13,

"YHWH (יהוה) said to Abraham..." (ויאמר יהוה אל-אברהם)

The three men got up to go in Genesis 18:16

and Abraham walked with them (ויקמו משם האנשים וישקפו ואברהם הלך עמם).

YHWH (יהוה) spoke again from Genesis 18:17 (ויהוה אמר וינר יהוה).

Genesis 18:22 tells us that:

The men turned away towards Sodom (ויפנו משם האנשים וילכו סדמה) but Abraham stayed with YHWH (יהוה) (ואברהם עודנו עמד לפמני יהוה)

How do we know only two left?

Because Genesis 19:1 tells us that two messengers (שני המלאכים שני) arrived at Sodom.

Where was the third?

Back with Abraham obviously.

After some haggling about Sodom YHWH (יהוה) eventually left and Abraham returned to his tent (וילך יהוה).

God walked off to join the others.

YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) is mentioned then in Genesis 19:17 outside Sodom where he has rejoined the other two (ויאמר המלט).

Lot answered Adonay (אדנָ֗י), "... no my Lord..." ( אל-נא אדנָ֗י).

Genesis 19:19 contains words in the masculine singular.

Lot pleads with YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) .
Then in Genesis 19:24

YHWH (יהוה), one of the men, addressed earlier with the divine title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) is described as... YHWH (יהוה).

And YHWH (יהוה) standing there causes fire to rain down from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.





YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham as Adonay (אדנָ֗י), one of the three men, to speak about the promised son and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. His appearance is human and according to Genesis 19:24 he is separate from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.

And YHWH (יהוה) - subject of the sentence

...caused it to rain (המטיר - hifil, causative sense) on Sodom and Gomorrah...

from YHWH (יהוה) - מאת יהוה - direct object את of the sentence with preposition מן pointing to source)

...out of heaven (מן השמים - and the origin).

YHWH (יהוה) is the subject

standing and speaking with Lot

and he causes it to rain fire etc

from another source, heaven

and another object who is also YHWH (יהוה).

The one YHWH (יהוה) is the subject of the sentence

who directs another called YHWH (יהוה)

who is in another location (השמים) to cause the action.

Subject (יהוה) - Action: caused rain (המטיר) - Object and source: (מאת יהוה) - Location (מן השמים)

Who is Malakh YHWH?

fireprior.com

When speaking of the True "God" it is always either Elohim/Plural or Elohe/Plural

YHWH then becomes the 'Contact' between Elohim and man.

JESUS tells us:
John 1:18 - "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
John 6:46 - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father."

This (along with many scriptures) only permits one conclusion = JESUS is YHWH from the OT Scriptures

 

[DavidTree]

Correct-
The word מלאך (mal'akh) has the root meaning of to send and does not denote the nature of the one sent. The meaning ranges from messenger to envoy.

Function or Nature?
Who or what the one sent is cannot be determined from the word מלאך because it only describes the function of the sent one. Joshua's spies are called מלאכים in Joshua 6:17, 25 because they were sent. By nature they were human but the word describes their function. The same is true of the The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה). His function was to be sent but, as many texts show his nature is deity. He is from YHWH (יהוה) and yet he is one with YHWH (יהוה).

"Hear Oh Israel, YHWH (יהוה) is our God, YHWH (יהוה) is echad!"
The unity of God is one of complexity. God is unseen and yet seen, omnipresent and yet localized. Not man and yet became man.

YHWH (יהוה)
Seen, yet not seen.

Not seen.
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.”
...“you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
(ויאמר לא תוכל לראת את-פני כי לא-יראני האדם וחי)
...and while my glory passes by... but my face shall not be seen.”
Yet seen
Exodus 33:11 Thus YHWH (יהוה) used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
(וגבר יהוה אל-משה פנים אל פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל-רעהו)

Seen by: Hagar
ותקרא שם-יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי
Genesis 16:7-14
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) found her...

And he said, “Hagar...
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) also said to her,
“I will surely multiply your offspring...”
Hagar recognised that it was God speaking to her.
So she called the name of YHWH (יהוה) who spoke to her,
“You are a God of seeing,” for she said,
“Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.
” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi (באר לחי ראי)
Seen by: Abraham

Genesis 22:11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17–18
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) speaks to Abraham:

Malakh YHWH (יהוה) called to [Abraham]... He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.

The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) identifies himself as YHWH (יהוה)

...the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) called to Abraham a second time... and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares YHWH (יהוה), because you ... have not withheld your son, your only son, ...I will greatly bless you... because you have obeyed my voice.”

Whose voice?

The one speaking - the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה), who is YHWH (יהוה)

Genesis 18-19

Genesis 18 begins by saying YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham (וירא אליו יהוה).
Genesis 18:2 tells us how YHWH (יהוה) appeared to him.

He raised his eyes (וישא עיניו) and saw three men (וירא והנה שלשה אנשים).

It is interesting that in Genesis 18:3 he addresses one of the men using the title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) reserved only for YHWH (אדנָ֗י אם-נא מצאתי חן בעיניך אל-נא תעבר מעל עבדך)

And we know he is addressing one of the men because it's all masculine singular.

It's only in Genesis 18:4-5 that he addresses all three (רחצו רגליכם והשענו).

So in this introduction we are informed that

YHWH appeared to Abraham.

Of the three men Abraham addressed,

one is Adonay (אדנָ֗י), a title reserved exclusively for YHWH.

The three remain under the tree and are entertained by Abraham (Genesis 18:8).

(ויקח חמאה וחלב ובן-הבקר אשר עשה ויתן לפניהם והוא עמד עליהם תחת העץ ויאכלו)

They ask where Sarah might be and then one of them, YHWH (יהוה) speaks in Genesis 18:9 and says he will return the following year. (ויאמרו אליו איה שרה אשתך ויאמר הנה באהל)

We know it's YHWH because Genesis 21:1-2 tells us

"So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him."

Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent.

Who was she listening to?

The three men under the tree,

One of whom was Adonay (אדנָ֗י).

When she laughed at what God had just said to Abraham, the identity of Adonay was made plain in Genesis 18:13,

"YHWH (יהוה) said to Abraham..." (ויאמר יהוה אל-אברהם)

The three men got up to go in Genesis 18:16

and Abraham walked with them (ויקמו משם האנשים וישקפו ואברהם הלך עמם).

YHWH (יהוה) spoke again from Genesis 18:17 (ויהוה אמר וינר יהוה).

Genesis 18:22 tells us that:

The men turned away towards Sodom (ויפנו משם האנשים וילכו סדמה) but Abraham stayed with YHWH (יהוה) (ואברהם עודנו עמד לפמני יהוה)

How do we know only two left?

Because Genesis 19:1 tells us that two messengers (שני המלאכים שני) arrived at Sodom.

Where was the third?

Back with Abraham obviously.

After some haggling about Sodom YHWH (יהוה) eventually left and Abraham returned to his tent (וילך יהוה).

God walked off to join the others.

YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) is mentioned then in Genesis 19:17 outside Sodom where he has rejoined the other two (ויאמר המלט).

Lot answered Adonay (אדנָ֗י), "... no my Lord..." ( אל-נא אדנָ֗י).

Genesis 19:19 contains words in the masculine singular.

Lot pleads with YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) .
Then in Genesis 19:24

YHWH (יהוה), one of the men, addressed earlier with the divine title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) is described as... YHWH (יהוה).

And YHWH (יהוה) standing there causes fire to rain down from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.





YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham as Adonay (אדנָ֗י), one of the three men, to speak about the promised son and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. His appearance is human and according to Genesis 19:24 he is separate from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.

And YHWH (יהוה) - subject of the sentence

...caused it to rain (המטיר - hifil, causative sense) on Sodom and Gomorrah...

from YHWH (יהוה) - מאת יהוה - direct object את of the sentence with preposition מן pointing to source)

...out of heaven (מן השמים - and the origin).

YHWH (יהוה) is the subject

standing and speaking with Lot

and he causes it to rain fire etc

from another source, heaven

and another object who is also YHWH (יהוה).

The one YHWH (יהוה) is the subject of the sentence

who directs another called YHWH (יהוה)

who is in another location (השמים) to cause the action.

Subject (יהוה) - Action: caused rain (המטיר) - Object and source: (מאת יהוה) - Location (מן השמים)

Who is Malakh YHWH?

fireprior.com

i am making coffee and we have apple pie = you coming over?

 

[Johann]

When speaking of the True "God" it is always either Elohim/Plural or Elohe/Plural

YHWH then becomes the 'Contact' between Elohim and man.

JESUS tells us:
John 1:18 - "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
John 6:46 - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father."

This (along with many scriptures) only permits one conclusion = JESUS is YHWH from the OT Scriptures

I fully concur-might not understand it but yes-reading rabbinical resources also confirms this.
1Co 10:2 and all unto Moses were immersed in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 and all [the same food spiritual ate],
1Co 10:4 and all [the same drink spiritual drank]; for they drank from a spiritual [following rock], and the rock was the Christ.


1) “And did all drink the same spiritual drink.” This means spirit provided, divinely provided drink. It stayed with them through their wilderness journey, so does Christ our Water of life, and His Spirit, Joh_4:14; Joh_6:35.

2) "For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:” The Rock which Moses smote and to which he spoke typified Christ, rock, foundation, and sustainer of our salvation, Exo_17:5-6. The smitten Rock speaks of the crucified Christ, from whom the water of Life comes. Moses was to speak to the Rock only the second time; through prayer the saved receive refreshing strength, thus Moses' presumptuous second smiting of the Rock brought God's anger. The Christ was smitten but once for our sins, Num_20:8; Num_20:10-13; Heb_9:25-26; Heb_10:3; Heb_10:11-12.

3) "And that Rock was Christ." The (pneumatikon akolouthouses petras) means "spiritual following Rock" - which is declared to be Christ. They, the Israelites, drank of Christ, as surely as his true followers today drink of Him, Isa_55:11; 1Pe_2:8; Joh_7:37-39; Act_4:11-12; Eph_2:20.

 

[Johann]

i am making coffee and we have apple pie = you coming over?

In a moment-apple pie is my favorite!

 

[DavidTree]

In a moment-apple pie is my favorite!

My wife made soup from the Turkey - so either way = Hot drink and desert!

 

[Johann]

My wife made soup from the Turkey - so either way = Hot drink and desert!

Ah!-a moment of refreshment for a weary traveler-stay strong @DavidTree.

 

[101G]

In the beginning recalls the creation story of Genesis, but speaks more clearly of the
Creator Himself. Furthermore, while Genesis spoke of the first creation, this “Prologue”
of John (vv. 1–18) reveals the new creation in Christ.

He is the END/Last of Adam, and upon his resurrection, the FIRST and ONLY Adam. for all of us are in, in, in, him. he is the NEW CREATION, first fruit. just as he is the FIRSTFRUIT of the NOW old creation.

101G.

 

[atpollard]

Good Morning,

Ephesians ch2 does not arbrogate Ezekiel ch18 = it magnifies it

i SEE no contradiction here

So why is Ezekiel 18‘s “not remembered” untrue and the ”invisible passage” about God the Father pouring the wrath that we would have received on God the Son true?

 

[DavidTree]

So why is Ezekiel 18‘s “not remembered” untrue and the ”invisible passage” about God the Father pouring the wrath that we would have received on God the Son true?

Because Scriptural Prophecy does not stand alone.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard says: "I cannot find anything in SCRIPTURE that states or even suggests that any such transaction took place"

REALLY???

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation magnifies the suffering of MESSIAH/God's Only Begotten Son, QUENCHED the fires of Hell for us who have have received from Christ the Punishment that He took upon Himself for our sins.

Departing from "it is written" concerning Christ's suffering and WHY He suffered is not a safe path to go down.

On the 7th Day God Rested = from WHAT???

attention @Brakelite

That you quoted ZERO scripture verses stating any of your claims …

• “God's Only Begotten Son, QUENCHED the fires of Hell for us”
• “received from Christ the Punishment that He took upon Himself”

… is both SO NOTED, and confirms my own failure to locate any verses supporting those UNBIBLICAL elements of the otherwise very biblical teaching that Christ died to gain for us a new life.

 

[atpollard]

Because Scriptural Prophecy does not stand alone.

Non sequitur.

 

[DavidTree]

That you quoted ZERO scripture verses stating any of your claims …

• “God's Only Begotten Son, QUENCHED the fires of Hell for us”
• “received from Christ the Punishment that He took upon Himself”

… is both SO NOTED, and confirms my own failure to locate any verses supporting those UNBIBLICAL elements of the otherwise very biblical teaching that Christ died to gain for us a new life.

Non sequitur.

 

[DavidTree]

That you quoted ZERO scripture verses stating any of your claims …

• “God's Only Begotten Son, QUENCHED the fires of Hell for us”
• “received from Christ the Punishment that He took upon Himself”

… is both SO NOTED, and confirms my own failure to locate any verses supporting those UNBIBLICAL elements of the otherwise very biblical teaching that Christ died to gain for us a new life.

i will post scriptures for you tomorrow

Good Nite Brother