Sorry you denied my claim that interpretation was a bigger problem than the transmission of the text
Free-willer Straw Man Argument
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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Frank Russell
Well-known member
Strain at a gnat swallow the whole camel I guess.
Nope
I think you now see your error denying interpretation of the text was a bigger problem than any disagreement concerning the content of the text
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Not at all.
My main issue initially was that people need to be saved by the Holy Spirit through faith instead of placing faith the text of the bible.
Our debate went through a bunch of evolutions, but it still comes to you reducing the argument to be "about the text"
Now that the debate is about the translated text, my point is you cannot have a translation without interpretation. Your point that there are interpretation disputes illustrates (further) that there is no evidence.
Furthermore, there are a number of source texts there is no "the text" which was a previous point.
You have strained at the gnat of a perceived contradiction, while missing the camel of the whole picture.
As illustrated in previous discussions, we do not think alike. So for you to perceive a logical inconsistency is not proof in and of itself .. all it proves is we do not think alike.
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Sorry, you opined that the context of the text was the biggest dividing issue. Except anyone on this forum can see all the arguments are about interpretation and not what is the true text
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Except there is no true text.
The Sinaiticus was snatched from some monks who were tearing pages out and burning them, meaning it was not considered a good copy.
The Vaticanus is missing most of the letters of Paul.
The Textus Receptus was a compilation of available manuscripts (plural, not one book) prior to the newer discoveries.
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No true text?
And you above all others have determined that. Is that correct?. You are the textual critic par excellent and your view exceeds that of those who have spent a lifetime studying the science of textual criticism.
But above all that you have determined God did not care to have an accurate record of his message to exist.
Sure. You get one but I don't? You don't believe God alone gets the glory?
You think there is glory in predetermining most of mankind to reprobation?
Frank Russell
Well-known member
The Holy Spirit was provided to us so we can see what the original message was regardless of how broken the telephone is. As long as each born again person can discern their individual instructions, that's all that's needed.
So why is your Holy Spirit is contradictory to the Holy Spirit in others
Seems to me that is a far bigger divide than the content of the texts we have
Frank Russell
Well-known member
You vastly misunderstand what I said, I shudder to think how you read the bible.
God is the source of all Glory but He shares His Glory with the whole Earth. He is not a hoarder as Calvinists make Him out to be. You don't see His Glory in the universe He created?
civic
Well-known member
ditto
or his glory in his self sacrificial love for mankind
It is you who are ignoring God Tom, in order to justify and promote the insidious falsehood that Jesus and Paul's Creed are against God's Law.
It's not the "Deeds of the Law", that remove a man's sins, (Justifies a man) just as it wasn't the blood of the goat that removed man's sins. It is God through His Son who forgives sin (Justifies). But whose sins are forgiven, who is justified? The hearers of God's Law? Or the "Doers" of God's Law? Paul answers this question.
Rom. 2: 3 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
But you don't believe in this Paul.
Whose house will stand? The hearers of Christ's Sayings, or the "doers" of Christ's sayings?
Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore "whosoever" heareth these sayings of mine, and "doeth" them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them "not", shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
You don't believe in this Jesus.
If a man wants to enter eternal life, does he just hear God's Commandments, or does he keep God's Commandments.
Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
You don't believe in this Jesus.
Your Jesus and your Paul's Creed "is against God's Law". But not the Jesus "of the Bible" or the Paul "of the Bible as these and the entire Bible teaches. That is the point the Scriptures are making, in reply to your adopted religious philosophy "Jesus and Paul's Creed was against God's Law". You really should repent of such foolishness, which means to stop teaching it, as it is an untruth.
Eph. 4: 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
sorry i posted the scriptures. You have not rebutted them
Keeping the law will not justify you only faith will
Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Contradictory
We just read no one will be justified by works of the law and not you want to affirm the opposite
Galatians 3:1–14 (KJV 1900) — 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 4:21–5:18 (KJV 1900) — 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
If that's according to God's will, then yes, it glorifies God. If you can't agree, then you don't trust God.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Who you kidding with the word "if".
You know that you teach such. There is no "if" involved.
It's not. It's just a figment of your theology
