brightfame52
Well-known member
If its of conditions you must meet, its no longer grace !
Favoritism in Unconditional Election
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brightfame52
Well-known member
If its of conditions you must meet, its no longer grace !
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Quite the contrary. If you believe that salvation is conditional upon your faith, and your faith is exclusively yours by your free will choice, not a gift of God, you are glorifying yourself. I'm using the editorial "you". It is wrong and rude to make this discussion about you, personally, or me.
You ignore scripture
That is an assumption contrary to scripture
Romans 4:1–16 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
That is an assumption contrary to scripture
Romans 4:1–16 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
So if someone offers you a gracious present on condition that you accept it and not trash it then it's no longer a gracious present? With friends who think like you, who needs thankless ingrates?
civic
Well-known member
RoflSo if someone offers you a gracious present on condition that you accept it and not trash it then it's no longer a gracious present? With friends who think like you, who needs thankless ingrates?
talk about ridiculous arguments that one takes the trophyThat's how utterly ridiculous Calvinism truly is. How can people possibly fall for such nonsense? Their thinking is off the charts for not using one's upper faculties.Rofl
Why can't Calvinists just believe scriptureRofl
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Yes Christ didn’t do any work lol didn’t you know that
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
They show no affinity for Christ. They only claim Grace for themselves while denying it to others.
civic
Well-known member
The Bible says faith without works is dead.
ie the faith of the devil, no works
Next
civic
Well-known member
The special chosen elect ones which we have demonstrated have nothing to do with salvation.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The whole verse is "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Him == Christ
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's after you are a believing Christian.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Then why are you leaving out the work of Christ?
You are applying the statement solely from your preferred perspective without dealing with how Christ's work applies?
This is more than your overly simplicity demands allow. That is why.
Rockson
Well-known member
What a weird way though that you Calvinist swing the use of grammar around to accommodate your belief.
Wonder why Jesus didn't use the word CAUSE in the verse you stated. He wasn't shy in using the word cause in other places of the gospels about other subjects.
So why didn't he say this is the work of God that he causes you to believe in him whom he has sent? It would have laid to rest any question about it and you Calvinists would be able to exclaim, "See there! That's what he says he does!" He didn't though. So therefore to readers at least don't be moved by a contrived theology that throws everyday use of language out of whack.
The potential followers of Christ asked him what work or what are we to do to do the work of God and he told them.....The work of God for you is to believe in the one he has sent. Weigh the serious error that Calvinists are making with this by implying there's NOTHING you need to do and that is to believe and act and receive what Christ has for you. If you allow such Calvinists to neutralize you from doing so the cost will be VERY HIGH in YOU not obeying Christ.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The verse is literally, "29 Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'"
God makes it possible to believe in/on Him whom He has sent.
Sorry both premises are wrong
Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
instead of thinking Calvinistically you need to think biblically
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