Johann
Well-known member
Hebrews 11:6 – "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
J.
Faith precedes life !
- Thread starter civic
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J.
Scripture showed faith precedes life
John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 6:53 (LEB) — 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves!
Your theology is anti-scripture.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its not my responsibility to labor in answering anyone's questions, and again, its a fact the natural man in the flesh, unregenerate, cannot please God Rom 8:8 and Faith pleases God Heb 11:6
Also 1 Jn 3:22-23
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Again believing on the name of Christ is a commandment which is pleasing in the sight of God and the carnal man in the flesh cannot do either Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law/command of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So the necessity of life Spiritual before Faith in Christ.
Johann
Well-known member
I believe this matter was already being addressed, as you continue to rely on the same isolated verses without considering their full context, brother.
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes, prior to life we dead to all spiritual activity.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Okay. The unregenerate cant do that since they in the flesh. Can they in the flesh please God according to Rom 8:8
civic
Well-known member
sue they can come to God in faith there are dozens upon dozens of passages delclarint this to be true as opposed to your beliefs on the topic which are unbiblical and man made theology.
brightfame52
Well-known member
I agree with those verses, yet they dont overturn that the unregenerate in the flesh cannot please God, which believing in Christ does please God.
civic
Well-known member
yet you have no spiritual understanding as to their real meaning.
No, you don't as they show faith believing on the life and death of Christ is necessary to receive life
Scripture showed faith precedes life
John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 6:53 (LEB) — 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Nothing changes, the unregenerate, in the flesh cannot please God, duh, so life must come before Faith, Thats what i prove argue from scripture. Unless anyone can prove from scripture that the unregenerate in the flesh, can obey and please God, they have no legitimate argument. Just asking me to explain 100 million verses you round up isnt a legitimate rebuttal, its actually admitting defeat
Johann
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Your claim relies heavily on Romans 8:8 and Hebrews 11:6, assuming that the natural man (ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος, psuchikos anthrōpos) is entirely incapable of faith because faith pleases God. However, a deeper exegetical analysis of the Greek terms and cross-references demonstrates that while the flesh (σάρξ, sarx) is opposed to God, this does not mean the unregenerate person is wholly incapable of responding to divine revelation.
1. Romans 8:8 in Context
Romans 8:8 states:
"οἱ δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ὄντες Θεῷ ἀρέσαι οὐ δύνανται."
"And those who are in the flesh are not able to please God."
The phrase "οἱ δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ὄντες" (hoi de en sarki ontes) refers to those living under the control of the flesh rather than simply being physically unregenerate. Paul contrasts those who walk κατὰ πνεῦμα ("according to the Spirit") with those who walk κατὰ σάρκα ("according to the flesh"). This opposition is ethical and behavioral, not ontological.
However, Paul does not say that an unregenerate person cannot be convicted, drawn, or respond to God’s call. Instead, he describes their current state apart from the Spirit. The broader context of Romans 8 shows that transition from walking in the flesh to walking in the Spirit is possible, which aligns with many other passages showing that humans can respond to divine influence before regeneration.
2. The Role of Divine Conviction and Human Responsibility
John 16:8 – The Holy Spirit convicts (ἐλέγξει, elegxei) the world (not just the elect) of sin, righteousness, and judgment. This implies the unregenerate can be drawn and convicted.
John 6:44 – "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." The verb ἑλκύω (helkuō, "draws") does not denote irresistible force but influence, as seen in John 12:32 where Jesus says He will draw (helkuō) all men to Himself.
3. Faith as a Response, Not an Intrinsic Work
Your argument hinges on Hebrews 11:6:
"χωρὶς δὲ πίστεως ἀδύνατον εὐαρεστῆσαι"
"Without faith, it is impossible to please [God]."
However, this does not imply that an unregenerate person cannot believe. Instead, it establishes that faith is the condition for pleasing God. The capacity to believe is implied in verses like:
Acts 17:30 – "God commands all men everywhere to repent." If repentance were impossible for the unregenerate, this command would be meaningless.
Isaiah 55:6 – "Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near." If the unregenerate were incapable of responding, why command them to seek God?
4. The Free Agency of Man
While the unregenerate cannot merit salvation by works, they are not described as metaphysically incapable of responding to God’s invitation.
Deuteronomy 30:19 – "Choose life so that you may live." The imperative verb בחר (bachar, "choose") demonstrates that man has a real decision to make.
Joshua 24:15 – "Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve." Again, human agency is assumed.
Romans 8:8 speaks of those who are dominated by the flesh, not of an absolute metaphysical inability to respond to God. The Bible repeatedly calls upon sinners to repent and believe, which presupposes the ability to respond to God’s grace. Thus, your argument misinterprets Paul's statements by turning them into an ontological impossibility rather than an ethical reality.
J.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
I am amazed. they think a person who trusted one sent to rescue them, would take credit for saving themselves/
They would be laughed out of the building
Johann
Well-known member
Absolutely correct.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not from works, so that no one may boast."
This passage highlights that salvation is a gift of God, received through faith, and not based on works, making it clear that salvation is initiated by God's grace.
Titus 3:5 – "He saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
Romans 3:24 – "Being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."
Acts 15:11 – "But we believe we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way they also are."
2 Timothy 1:9 – "Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."
These verses confirm that salvation is entirely a result of God's grace, and faith is the means by which it is received.
J.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
I am not sure what causes them to think this way.. Are they afraid of faith?
Johann
Well-known member
From my experience, it seems that many who adhere to Calvinism struggle with assurance of their own salvation, often questioning whether they are truly among the elect.
Johann.
brightfame52
Well-known member
If you are saying sure they can come to God in faith, I would have to say you are opposing what scripture says they cannot do.
brightfame52
Well-known member
I can say the same of you, since they dont overturn Rom 8:7-8
brightfame52
Well-known member
Explain how they mean the natural man in the flesh can please God ? Scripture says they cant, and not one of those verses say, the natural man in the flesh can please God. Thats for you to prove with those verses, otherwise I have no problem with them
