Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Doug Brents]

Let me say this about that...you can't become un-saved. Once you're in the Jesus Bus you're on your way to Heaven by God's Grace. See you there.

Ya, you can. But there aren't many on this forum who believe that truth. Most, like yourself, are deluded to think that just because you had a thought in your head/heart once that means you are saved, and once you are saved there is NOTHING you can do that will take that away. Both parts of that belief are in error.

 

[MTMattie]

Nora, the only good thing about you not ever being baptized is, that there will be millions who will inherit eternal life that had never been baptized into the religion of Christ, yet not many who had opportunity and have heard the truth hundred's of times over and still refused water baptism per NT example that were able to be baptized, some may not be able to do so, for different reasons.

Red, once I send this to you I will be ignoring... as in not responding... to you again.

Once the c of C convinced me that I was hell bound... there were 10 or 11 of them at that time, if you remember... you know what I went through to get both my mother and I dunk. How, it was that very same church that denied me that when I was looking into all the churches up here.

The Baptist had my mother very nervous because first of all, their batismal font is right there in the sanctuary and we saw no steprs to get up and into it because it looked to be over the side. My mother at that time was nearing her mid 80s.... and walking with a cane. Scrambling over the side?

They would not perform the baptism unless we were in front of the full congregation on a Sunday morning and he was going to have it just for us... no others... but denied a private like the Eunuch.

Then you offered when we thought on our way to Fl that one year you would in a corner of your swimming pool.

Aside from those circumstances as I had been taught only an Elder or a Minister is proper to baptize one there came came a major concern of my mother who was progressing worse with her incontinence... and some other problems. "I am sure she would not have been the only one who -ed in your pool but still...

And we never did go to FL ever.

But then came the opportunity . One group of people will baptize you on a weekday night and all you have to do is get there.

They do not want your beliefs or to know your faith because this is an open baptism for anyone for any reason.

So dont you dare tell me that I did not try or did not want to..... Some of those who did such to me back then are on here.

I have no use for them.

You know cotton picking well that I was baby baptized. And I have a baptismal certificate and it was signed by my minister ate the time.

You know I spent many a year, once I could understand up to about the age of twelve learning from family, freinds and the church before I could even think I would be a member of that congregation. Study, take the classes, and vow your belief and faith in Jesus as my savior.

Just and FYI because this was this past Sunday.

They accepted a young man into the church... He was all by himself and he had completed the classes of communicants to be allowed to join and he HAD to write hs own statement of faith, Appear in from of the entire Session for questioning, and then he was brough into the church with the words "Now he is a follower of Christ.

So it is not a slam dunk thing being baptized as a baby... there is work to be done to be accepted. You are first baptized Infront of the congregation as your parents stand for you, then you become a follower of Christ, in front of the congregation.
The people are your witnesses.....

You do not believe in that...

Yet... You still have not provided scripture that proves all the apostles were baptized.

Yes, I did use copy and paste so you would not accuse me of not understanding.... and coming from one who uses it much
I did not think it would be a problem.

The fact is.... But there’s nothing in the Biblical record indicating that they all were, .....

You are assuming such... and so many say yes they were.. by Jesus LOL... even though it is suggested none would have been before Pentecost.

Now.... There is only one way I can take what you posted to me. You are challenging my faith and my standing with God and I am finished with you. Not putting you on ignore... just ignoring.

May your wife have a blessed life.

 

[MTMattie]

Very true sir.

No bueno.

Is this false? If so please provide scripture showing so. (see post 1853 and 1863 that you replied to)

It’s reasonable to assume that having first been followers of John, several of the Lord’s disciples had been baptized. But there’s nothing in the Biblical record indicating that they all were, and even those who were did not receive the Holy Spirit at the time. Neither did a baptism precede either the event in the Upper Room or the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Tranquil]

Ya, you can. But there aren't many on this forum who believe that truth. Most, like yourself, are deluded to think that just because you had a thought in your head/heart once that means you are saved, and once you are saved there is NOTHING you can do that will take that away. Both parts of that belief are in error.

I'm not responsible for what others think, but I know nothing can snatch me out of His or His Father hand. I know I'm eternally secure. Salvation cannot be lost.

I just took a deluded test, and I got a clean bill of health. No delusions for me. The word of God teaches eternal security. And
my experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross.

 

[civic]

I'm not responsible for what others think, but I know nothing can snatch me out of His or His Father hand. I know I'm eternally secure. Salvation cannot be lost.

I just took a deluded test, and I got a clean bill of health. No delusions for me. The word of God teaches eternal security. And
my experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross.

I cannot not think about Jesus. He is on my mind all of the time. Not a day goes by where I’m not praying to Him, thanking Him, praising Him for saving a wretch like me. Amazing grace from my Lord, my God, my Savior, my Redeemer, my Sustainer, my Shepherd, my Friend, my Creator.

I can say He has my heart more than my wife has my heart. And she is my HS sweetheart whom I’ve been with since 1977 and Jesus saved me in 1980

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm not responsible for what others think, but I know nothing can snatch me out of His or His Father hand. I know I'm eternally secure. Salvation cannot be lost.

Scripture says otherwise.

I just took a deluded test, and I got a clean bill of health. No delusions for me. The word of God teaches eternal security. And
my experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross.

Tell me then what you believe happened at the cross. Because that statement sounds like it comes from a delusion of its own.

 

[Jim]

deleted

 

[Jim]

You mean this?



yet you said this



those are you words not might. there is no might or anything else. So you just contradicted yourself saying you never said it

it does not get you out. YOU DID SAY what I accused you of..

as once again I proved.

dude, its on you not me, Own your words. or admit you made a mistake. or keep fighting to repent. and I will keep exposing what you did say

DUDE, I suspect you will not understand what I am about to tell you. But that is what it is. What Peter stated in Acts 2:39 establishes SUFFICIENT CONDITIONS for the forgiveness of sin and for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. What Peter stated there does not establish NECESSARY CONDITIONS for the forgiveness of sin and for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

DUDE, I suspect you will not understand what I am about to tell you. But that is what it is. What Peter stated in Acts 2:39 establishes SUFFICIENT CONDITIONS for the forgiveness of sin and for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. What Peter stated there does not establish NECESSARY CONDITIONS for the forgiveness of sin and for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

thats one thing about chatrooms that always bothered me,

I have never met a place where so many people who call themselves God's people make statements, then when someone asks them to back that statement or make a comment about that statement, instead of confessing they made a mistake. they keep trying to make it appear they did nto say something

YOU SAID PLAINLY THESE ARE YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.

He has promised to save the repentant believer

we agree, he has promised to save the person who repents. If you stopped here we would be ok. but you do not.

please not. no where in your statement did you use the word IF


who is

So first, you have the sinner repenting, Now you have the person doing something else

baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

so not only has the person repented. But that have been baptized. why did they get baptised according to YOUR WORDS?

for the forgiveness of their sins

so there you have it, In YOUR WORDS, a person must repent. and be baptized to receive remission of sin. But this is not all there is more

and to receive the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit..

not only did they have to repent AND BE BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF JESUS to have their sins forgiven, But to recieve the gift of the spirit.

PS. Peter did nto say get baptised to recieve remission of sin or to get the gift of the spirit. So if your using acts 23 to back your baptismal forgiveness of sin, you are mistaken

now its back in your court. I broke down YOUR STATEMENT word for word.

show me IN YOUR STATMENT where I made the mistake

 

[Jim]

thats one thing about chatrooms that always bothered me,

I have never met a place where so many people who call themselves God's people make statements, then when someone asks them to back that statement or make a comment about that statement, instead of confessing they made a mistake. they keep trying to make it appear they did nto say something

YOU SAID PLAINLY THESE ARE YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.

He has promised to save the repentant believer

we agree, he has promised to save the person who repents. If you stopped here we would be ok. but you do not.

please not. no where in your statement did you use the word IF


who is

So first, you have the sinner repenting, Now you have the person doing something else

baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

so not only has the person repented. But that have been baptized. why did they get baptised according to YOUR WORDS?

for the forgiveness of their sins

so there you have it, In YOUR WORDS, a person must repent. and be baptized to receive remission of sin. But this is not all there is more

and to receive the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit..

not only did they have to repent AND BE BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF JESUS to have their sins forgiven, But to recieve the gift of the spirit.

PS. Peter did nto say get baptised to recieve remission of sin or to get the gift of the spirit. So if your using acts 23 to back your baptismal forgiveness of sin, you are mistaken

now its back in your court. I broke down YOUR STATEMENT word for word.

show me IN YOUR STATMENT where I made the mistake

I suggested earlier that you go get a textbook for formal logic and study it. As it is now, further discussions with you would be futile. Your responses are completely irrational.

 

[Ahar]

Our salvation depends on OBEYING what we are taught in scripture.

The role of faith and God's grace is what secures salvation. The core belief in Christianity is that salvation is achieved through faith in Jesus Christ, not through works or obedience.

 

[Doug Brents]

The role of faith and God's grace is what secures salvation. The core belief in Christianity is that salvation is achieved through faith in Jesus Christ, not through works or obedience.

That is not completely accurate Biblically. While it may be true that most people believe that, Heb 5:9 says that Christ is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. And there are several passage that state a physical action leads to/results in receiving salvation (Rom 10:9-10 for instance).

 

[Ahar]

That is not completely accurate Biblically. While it may be true that most people believe that, Heb 5:9 says that Christ is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. And there are several passage that state a physical action leads to/results in receiving salvation (Rom 10:9-10 for instance).

And what is believing Him about salvation?

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Romans 10:13
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18

“…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” Romans 10:9-11

If you believe “faith alone in Christ alone” is salvation can only be found through faith in Christ and can never be found or furthered by our good deeds or the works of the OT law – then I’m all in.

Bottom line: When it comes to trying to figure out how faith and obedience intersect, it seems to me that we can’t improve upon the Apostle John’s simple test to determine if we actually know God.

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

I see no reason to redefine or tweak his words – after all, they are scripture, and all of our theological ruminations are not.

I’m not suggesting that we somehow work our way into God’s favor or earn our salvation. I am suggesting that genuine faith, by definition, includes a pattern of obedience.


Obedience is not a stairway to heaven – or the final steps that complete what Jesus started. But according to the Apostle John, it is the one test that distinguishes between genuine faith and counterfeit faith.

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie

Now.... There is only one way I can take what you posted to me. You are challenging my faith and my standing with God and I am finished with you. Not putting you on ignore... just ignoring.

I have never challenged your faith, I have even defended you during that time on GCF. What I was challenging you is that unless we are obedience to the word of God, in all phrases of it, and purposely have neglected any part of it, then we are not fit to defend any part of the scriptures. Noting more than that. I'll leave there and pray for your best.

Btw, one does not need to be an ordained minister, to baptize another believer.

Acts 9:10​

“And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.”

One more thought: Jesus never baptized one person, only his disciples did, which proves that all of them were baptized believers.

John 4:1,2​

“When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)”

Jesus' apostles and other disciples did the baptizing of the followers of Christ. There's a lot to learn from these two scriptures, but, I'll pass.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, you do not understand what you see.

You do not know and understand the difference between the conditional or implicational statements of "if" and "only if". I probably should just stop there and let you remain in your state of ignorance of logical reasoning.

However, another way to state that is that some statements present necessary conditions for a relational connection; some statements present sufficient conditions for a relation; some statements present both necessary and sufficient conditions for a relation. For example, a square is a plane figure having four sides. A plane figure having four sides is a necessary condition for being a square. However, being a plane figure having four sides is not a sufficient condition for being a square. A parallelogram is a plane figure having four sides, but it is not a square. A plane figure being a square is a sufficient condition for being a quadrangle which is a plane figure having four sides. Being a parallelogram is a sufficient condition for being a quadrangle. Neither being a square nor being a parallelogram are necessary conditions for being a quadrangle.

I think that what Peter said to the crowd at Pentecost in Acts 2:38 established repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit as a sufficient condition for the repentant believer to be saved. I have said that I believe that is true. I HAVE NOT SAID what Peter said to the crowd at Pentecost in Acts 2:38 established repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as necessary conditions for the repentant believer to be saved.

I hope that is clear enough for you to understand. But I won't bet on it.

You say it's a sufficient condition.
If Jesus says to do something...doesn't that make it a necessary condition??

 

[GodsGrace]

And what is believing Him about salvation?

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Romans 10:13
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18

“…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” Romans 10:9-11

If you believe “faith alone in Christ alone” is salvation can only be found through faith in Christ and can never be found or furthered by our good deeds or the works of the OT law – then I’m all in.

Bottom line: When it comes to trying to figure out how faith and obedience intersect, it seems to me that we can’t improve upon the Apostle John’s simple test to determine if we actually know God.

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

I see no reason to redefine or tweak his words – after all, they are scripture, and all of our theological ruminations are not.

I’m not suggesting that we somehow work our way into God’s favor or earn our salvation. I am suggesting that genuine faith, by definition, includes a pattern of obedience.


Obedience is not a stairway to heaven – or the final steps that complete what Jesus started. But according to the Apostle John, it is the one test that distinguishes between genuine faith and counterfeit faith.

What are the commands of Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

The role of faith and God's grace is what secures salvation. The core belief in Christianity is that salvation is achieved through faith in Jesus Christ, not through works or obedience.

So,,,,it's OK not to obey Jesus....Who is God?

 

[MTMattie]

The role of faith and God's grace is what secures salvation. The core belief in Christianity is that salvation is achieved through faith in Jesus Christ, not through works or obedience.

Ok... I just took my like back.

@Ahar. Please identify what works you think damns us? For if they wont help with salvation we will be lost. ie damned.

Also... not through obedience?

I do not know what bible you are reading but you best check out repentance and where it fits and its relation to obedience.

 

[Verily]

Scripture says otherwise.

Tell me then what you believe happened at the cross. Because that statement sounds like it comes from a delusion of its own.

Scripture does not say otherwise. And we all know what happened at the cross, don't try to be cute. Stop with the insinuations that posters are delusional. It's rude and not very Christ like. It's regarded as demeaning in nature. First Rule 1A.

 

[JLB]

And what is believing Him about salvation?

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Romans 10:13
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18

“…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” Romans 10:9-11

If you believe “faith alone in Christ alone” is salvation can only be found through faith in Christ and can never be found or furthered by our good deeds or the works of the OT law – then I’m all in.

Bottom line: When it comes to trying to figure out how faith and obedience intersect, it seems to me that we can’t improve upon the Apostle John’s simple test to determine if we actually know God.

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

I see no reason to redefine or tweak his words – after all, they are scripture, and all of our theological ruminations are not.

I’m not suggesting that we somehow work our way into God’s favor or earn our salvation. I am suggesting that genuine faith, by definition, includes a pattern of obedience.


Obedience is not a stairway to heaven – or the final steps that complete what Jesus started. But according to the Apostle John, it is the one test that distinguishes between genuine faith and counterfeit faith.

Looks like you guys have an interesting discussion going on, with many good scriptures being used.


I always take notice when I see the typical “variations” of faith being used when discussing the role of obedience in relation to salvation.


If we examine the principle (law) of faith and how faith operates in our life we will soon discover that phrase like we are saved by “faith alone” are not biblical, as well as the phrase “salvation by works” is biblical either.

You have highlighted some good principles at scriptures to understand and discuss when you quoted
1 John 2:3-6, especially verse 4.

I think many of us have grown accustomed to thinking a certain way about salvation when it comes to these things.


Surely I think we can agree that “faith alone” is not a biblical concept.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17


Question:
By saying “works”, do you understand what James is referring to?


It’s not the works of the law of Moses.
It’s not work that earns a wage.
It’s not good works, or works of righteousness.


It’s the same thing Paul is referring to when he made this statement -


Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:27