Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Jim]

we are not born spiritually alive, we are born in adam.. so that we have the ability to be born in Christ.

That is Calvinist nonsense. The very idea that God would give us a spirit that was dead to begin with is an affront to God. How anyone could believe that about God is truly pathetic. We become dead in our trespasses and sins.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

LOL
Synergy is not saying Calvinists are universalists!
He's making a point.

sis, you also need to heed and to read what you are responding to. You hurt yourself when you do things like this

Exactly!

Also, if you couple the Biblical fact that God's desire is that all are saved with the calvinist belief that human have no say in the matter then that proves that calvinists are Universalists.

tell me how saying it proves they are universalists is not saying they are universalists.

when people blindly follow those who agree with them to stick up for them. it appears cultish..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Eve recognized that God helped her.
Do atheists or agnostics think God helps them?

and this saved her?

Were Caine and Abel raised to believe in God and offer sacrifices to Him?
Do atheists or agnostics raise their children to know and worship God?

I know people who are saved and teaching in church that grew up in athiest families who never heard about God until they left their house and went to college or got a job abd met believers.

what does that have to do with anything.

what restored Eve's relationship with God?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

To be born again was/is only available under the New Covenant. Being born again is strictly a New Covenant opportunity. Even though forgiveness of sin could be obtained through the sacrificial rites provided for before the coming of Jesus and His death, burial and resurrection. Strictly speaking, two things are required for salvation, namely forgiveness of sin and punishment for sin. The animal sacrifices provided for forgiveness of sin and (eventually) Jesus' suffering on the cross provided for the punishment.

As an added comment, from John the Baptism until Pentecost, it would appear that John's baptism would also provide for the forgiveness of sin also. That is a subject for another time.

um the gospel has not changed. Paul in romans 4 makes this clear. we are saved by the same faith of our father Abraham,. who was before the law.

 

[Jim]

do you realize you just agreed with her, while you stated she was wrong?

Do you realize that you seem not to understand what either of us said?

 

[Jim]

um the gospel has not changed. Paul in romans 4 makes this clear. we are saved by the same faith of our father Abraham,. who was before the law.

Abraham Saved? Yes. Born again? No. Clearly you are confused about what it means to be born again.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'm soooo tired of this EG.

and you think I am not?

Do YOU know anyone that is perfect?
I don't.

thank you. that means no one deserves salvation..

So does this mean we don't even TRY?

lol.. why are you trying? whats the purpose of you trying?

to get saved, to keep saved, or keep from losing salvation.

or because you ARE SAVED and you want to become more like your savior?

Jesus stated who He will not know:
Those That Are Lawless.

He did not know them personally in a realtionship. He does know who they are.. Huge difference

Those that don't follow the law...
Jesus' law, not the Law of Moses.

standard is the same,

you want to earn salvation, the right to get to heaven based on your actions. the law is the standard. God did not lower the law to make it easier.

I sin...but I AM NOT LAWLESS.

If you sin, you are lawless in the eyes of a Holy God.

I think we are starting to get the understanding

Let's keep our definitions in line with the NT.
1 John 1 and 1 John 3:9

I love john, lets look at his gospels. because jesus is clear on who is saved and how..

no works involved.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I think he took my word RECOGNIZE to mean that Jesus will not be able to judge.
I could be wrong...he never replied.

I base this on his reply to me where he's stating that Jesus will know everyone.
Again,,,I could be wrong.

He knows everyone

the word know in the passage means in a personal relationship.

He never knew them ie, they were never saved. and brought into a relationship with God

another flaw in the English language causes confusion, its sad.. Nothing against you. just frustrating to me at times

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That is Calvinist nonsense.

I am not calvinists. One day you will open your mind and stop attacking ghosts that are not there.

God put all of the human race under adam, Just like he put all the children of Israel under Moses.

in adam all die

So that he could puit everyone under christ.

the sin issue is resolved. no one will be punished eternally for sin.

they will be judged because they did not believe

when God sent Israel into Canaan, He told them to kill all. that the sin was complete. Included in that massacre was the mass killing off all children including babies. He did not give them a chance to believe. you think he did that no knowing if they would ever believe or not?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Do you realize that you seem not to understand what either of us said?

I understand quite well my friend..

You both as much said the same thing in different ways

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Abraham Saved? Yes. Born again? No. Clearly you are confused about what it means to be born again.

God looked forward. its the only way he could attribute to Abraham righteousness.. Who's righteousness do you think was imputed to Abraham?

But he went to paradise. not hades.. so in effect he was saved.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

To be born again was/is only available under the New Covenant. Being born again is strictly a New Covenant opportunity. Even though forgiveness of sin could be obtained through the sacrificial rites provided for before the coming of Jesus and His death, burial and resurrection. Strictly speaking, two things are required for salvation, namely forgiveness of sin and punishment for sin. The animal sacrifices provided for forgiveness of sin and (eventually) Jesus' suffering on the cross provided for the punishment.

As an added comment, from John the Baptism until Pentecost, it would appear that John's baptism would also provide for the forgiveness of sin also. That is a subject for another time.

water baptism never provided forgiveness of sin.

where do you get this idea from?

and the blood of bulls and goats NEVER took away sin.

again, where do you get the idea mans works cause God to forgive them of sin?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God is Holy and therefore cannot abide sin even in Calvinist/Reformed theology.

It is there, you simply refuse to see it and admit to it. You are of course free to reject whatever you wish to reject.

wow is everything calvinist to you?

if your just going to attack calvinism, you will NEVER understand what most people believe or even say

 

[Doug Brents]

His foreknowledge has to conform to his will.

Yes, He forknew, what did he foreknow about them

That they would accept Him and obey His commands.

This is works. This is not faith.. you might as well put people back under law.

Nope, very different.

If you think salvation must be merited. You reject eternal security and eternal life. You call it conditional life

Salvation is never merited. Even if we obey Him, we still don't DESERVE forgiveness. But He promised to give us forgiveness if we do a few simple things trusting in Him to deliver.

 

[Jim]

I am not calvinists. One day you will open your mind and stop attacking ghosts that are not there.

God put all of the human race under adam, Just like he put all the children of Israel under Moses.

in adam all die

So that he could puit everyone under christ.

the sin issue is resolved. no one will be punished eternally for sin.

they will be judged because they did not believe

when God sent Israel into Canaan, He told them to kill all. that the sin was complete. Included in that massacre was the mass killing off all children including babies. He did not give them a chance to believe. you think he did that no knowing if they would ever believe or not?

More Calvinist nonsense even if you do not call yourself a Calvinist. We don't need Adam's sin imputed to us. We have enough of our own. Besides, God would never impute the sin of one to another. That would be the epitome of injustice. You have the Calvinist view of an unjust God.

 

[Jim]

wow is everything calvinist to you?

if your just going to attack calvinism, you will NEVER understand what most people believe or even say

Calvinists aren't the only ones to get it wrong. But some of the things they get wrong were established in Calvinism even if they do not claim to be Calvinists. The false doctrine of Original Sin is just a step away from even worse doctrine of Total Depravity.

 

[MTMattie]

sis, you also need to heed and to read what you are responding to. You hurt yourself when you do things like this


tell me how saying it proves they are universalists is not saying they are universalists.

when people blindly follow those who agree with them to stick up for them. it appears cultish..

Calvinism certainly does. So do the die hard predestination believers who do not believe they have a bit of control over themselves when it comes to having faith.

 

[Doug Brents]

Excuse me sir. The land God gave israel was given when moses entered it

That promise still stands.

No. That promise was fulfilled. And then they were promised that if they kept the Law and continued to honor God they would remain in the Land and be safe, but if they rejected God then they would be taken out of the Land and into bondage. Ultimately, they rejected God, and then they rejected His Son. The Promised Land is now the Heavenly fulfillment that we should anticipate and has nothing to do with the physical land that the Jews and Muslims fight over today.

Yes.

So the land promised to israel has nothign to do with you or the church. Thank you for proving me right

Or national Israel either.

They could enjoy it.. The did for many years. And scripture says they will again.

That is one interpretation. But the better understanding points to the fulfillment of these promises in Heaven. The New Jerusalem that will be in Heaven on the New Earth after this entire reality is completely destroyed is the Promised Land we should be looking for, not the

Romans 4 says otherwise.

You are saved based on that covenant, Your not saved by the mosaic. Although from what it appears. You put yourself under that law. Because you reject grace

You accuse me wrongly, because I have never rejected grace.

On Salvation, yes he did

He who believes is not condmened

He who does not believe is condemned already

One passage that you misinterpret because of your erroneous preconception, but you ignore many passages that define what it means to believe/have faith in Him. Your interpretation of this passage makes a lie out of the others.

God wants to rescue you, will you let him, or keep tryign to save yourself

He already has rescued me, because I surrendered myself to Him. I know I cannot save myself, and I have NEVER tried to do so.

lol. Once again, TRUE FAITH HAS WORKS.

The people james spoke to had ZERO WORKS. Because they had ZERO FAITH

Exactly, no works equals no faith. If they had faith they would have works. The thing you refuse to see is that the works MUST be present before grace is received as Eph 2:8-9 tells us. A living, active faith must be present for grace to be received, for it is through faith that grace comes from God to us.

lol. If I have to earn it in any way, you did not pay in full.. You made a downpayment

So you are saying that the dealer gets greater compensation because you showed up? No, I paid 100% of the cost of the car. You owe the dealer NOTHING. All you have to do is show up, and the car is yours. Not only that, but the gas to run it for the rest of your life has already been paid for also. You owe NOTHING at all FOREVER. Yet if you don't show up to get it then it does you NO GOOD.

 

[Jim]

water baptism never provided forgiveness of sin.
where do you get this idea from?

But water baptism was/is the occasion when God forgives sin.

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

again, where do you get the idea mans works cause God to forgive them of sin?

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.


Need I go on? Do you really think that anyone who has eternal life has not had their sins forgiven?

Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Believing is a work, though not a work of law, that we do.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That they would accept Him and obey His commands.

no.. unless they are perfect. obedience will nto save them

john 1,. But as many as have recieved him, to them he gave the right to become children. even to those who believe in his name

Nope, very different.

Salvation is never merited. Even if we obey Him, we still don't DESERVE forgiveness. But He promised to give us forgiveness if we do a few simple things trusting in Him to deliver.

you just contradicted yourself.

in one breath you say not merited.

then in another you say we must do a few things.

that would be meriting salvation by doing those things

I trusted God to save me..

I proved that trust by obeying the gospel.

now that God has perfected me forever. he is in the process of sanctifying me, or making me more like him..