Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

What do you think "in Adam" means? Support it with scripture.

in adam all die

Says the one whose belief that God imputed Adam's sin to the rest of all mankind. Talk about ridiculous. Even worse, thinking that God would do such a thing is a slap in the face of God.

Or it is a master class of perfection

if I let people be born alive to me, then the moment they sinned, they would be doomed forever.

or I could put everyone under adam, the head of the human race. and pay for everyone sins. and the end is determined by who the people trusted.

Human reasoning. or repent and come to God

Oh but it is.

A warning? LOL!! And then what?

Actually, even though I detest the soteriology of Calvin, I do not think yours is much better.

well you appear to be a legalist.. so I would worry about yourself before you worry about me

I am secure in christ. because if HIM. not because i am special

 

[JLB]

The sheep was his, they did not have to repent.

Ok. Got it.

Thanks for pointing out the error in Jesus’s teaching.

I’ll fix it.


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents needs no repentance than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Eternally-Greatful 15:6-7

 

[GodsGrace]

and you think I am not?

thank you. that means no one deserves salvation..

lol.. why are you trying? whats the purpose of you trying?

to get saved, to keep saved, or keep from losing salvation.

or because you ARE SAVED and you want to become more like your savior?

In my early years of being a Christian, I would have to become more like my Savior.
But then I started to really read the bible and I saw all those WORKS/good deeds sentences.
Then I began to learn that one could forfeit their salvation.
Then I began to hear CHRISTIANS state that nothing is needed from us but faith.

That's not what I was learning from the word of God.
I was learning that BY DOING good works/deeds, I was becoming more like our Savior.
I learned that Jesus did not mean to only be our atonement,,,
but He also wanted to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth.

I began to learn that we are required to do good works...
so maybe now I'd say to keep our salvation by OBEYING God.

If we obey God we will be doing good works.
If we DO NOT do good works,,,as some advocate...
we will not be obeying God.

And I'm not the one to judge where that will bring any particular person...
but the NT does warn against falling away...departing from the faith...straying, etc.

He did not know them personally in a realtionship. He does know who they are.. Huge difference

standard is the same,

you want to earn salvation, the right to get to heaven based on your actions. the law is the standard. God did not lower the law to make it easier.

If you sin, you are lawless in the eyes of a Holy God.

Did I remember to post 1 John chapters 1 and 2?
Did I post 1 John 3:9?

What's the difference??

I think we are starting to get the understanding

I love john, lets look at his gospels. because jesus is clear on who is saved and how..

no works involved.

LOL
Works involved.

 

[Jim]

@Jim


Jim,,,some have understood my post 1605, to which you posted a sad face.

Apparently, all other denominations except the one you belong to have the same understanding of human nature.
So don't be so sad....
examine your belief system instead.

God does NOT put an evil spirit in persons at birth.
Adam put that "evil spirit" in mankind at birth.

Adam had no capability nor authority to effect the spirits of anyone but his own.

When Adam failed, we all failed.
HE is the federal head of humanity.

The whole concept of the theological federal head is a false construct to support a false doctrine. And it is a construct the demeans God Himself.

This is very clear from reading the NT.

Only from a misguided reading.

I really don't care to get into it.

But you are and do again and again.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not calvinists. One day you will open your mind and stop attacking ghosts that are not there.

God put all of the human race under adam, Just like he put all the children of Israel under Moses.

in adam all die

So that he could puit everyone under christ.

the sin issue is resolved. no one will be punished eternally for sin.

There you go EG.
The above is the type of statement that no Christian should make!

You said:
"The sin issue is resolved. No one will be punished eternally for sin".

I know you don't mean it,
but that sounds like:
We could sin and still go to heaven because the sin issue has been resolved.

This has been my point all along:
Incorrect theology brings to incorrect statements.
or, at least, statements that are not clear or in agreement with scripture.

they will be judged because they did not believe

when God sent Israel into Canaan, He told them to kill all. that the sin was complete. Included in that massacre was the mass killing off all children including babies. He did not give them a chance to believe. you think he did that no knowing if they would ever believe or not?

 

[JLB]

I knew your question was a trick question for the purpose of demeaning and discrediting me as a hypocrite for believing in God, when you first asked it.

No trick question sir.


Just a question from a person who is trying to understand what you believe.


Since you didn’t answer my question I will ask you again.


Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Do you and your congregation obey this commandment to put to death people who do any work on the Sabbath?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You accuse me wrongly, because I have never rejected grace.

yuou do when you claim works are required.

if it is of grace it is no longer of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

One passage that you misinterpret because of your erroneous preconception, but you ignore many passages that define what it means to believe/have faith in Him. Your interpretation of this passage makes a lie out of the others.

I believe what the word says

I am saved by grace period.. But it must be recieved by faith. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

You want to boast of your few acts of obedience. feel free. count me out

He already has rescued me, because I surrendered myself to Him. I know I cannot save myself, and I have NEVER tried to do so.

then why do you continue to try?

Exactly, no works equals no faith. If they had faith they would have works. The thing you refuse to see is that the works MUST be present before grace is received as Eph 2:8-9 tells us. A living, active faith must be present for grace to be received, for it is through faith that grace comes from God to us.

No. No faith equals no works.

why are you focused on works and then claim you are not

eph 2 8 -9 is clear

I have been (a completed action) saved by grace (the means of my salvation) through faith (God did not force me, I trusted him and recieved his gift of salvation) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (salvation is a gift. through grace it can not be earned) 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (No works are involved, period.. if they were. we could boast or take credit for saving ourselves.. but as Paul said in romans 4. Not before God)

So you are saying that the dealer gets greater compensation because you showed up? No, I paid 100% of the cost of the car. You owe the dealer NOTHING. All you have to do is show up, and the car is yours. Not only that, but the gas to run it for the rest of your life has already been paid for also. You owe NOTHING at all FOREVER. Yet if you don't show up to get it then it does you NO GOOD.

lol

keep boasting my friend. Keep boasting in your works.

then give them to God as payment for your sin and see what God tells you

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The land promised to the nation Isreal was physical land. But as you indicated, the promised land for Spiritual Israel is not physical land.

wrong

God promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his 12 sons physical land. as an eternal gift.

they desired a more perfect gift.. which is heavenly

but that does not negate God promised them the land of canaan

 

[Jim]

in adam all die

Define die. Which death do we all incur "in Adam"?

 

[Jim]

wrong

God promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his 12 sons physical land. as an eternal gift.

Not true. Nothing physical is eternal. The physical universe will cease to exist

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ok. Got it.

Thanks for pointing out the error in Jesus’s teaching.

I’ll fix it.


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents needs no repentance than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Eternally-Greatful 15:6-7

context here is the children of Israel

they were his sheep.

if they repent then there is glory in heaven

these sheep did not repent. and then lose salvation then have to repent again.

why do y9ou put people back under law?

 

[Studyman]

[s 9:10
“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

Such scriptures you just ignore, because you still hold to many of them.

I don't ignore Hebrews at all. I just understand what and who the "carnal ordinances" were imposed on, as Heb. 7-10 specifically and in detailed fashion clearly spells out for men seeking God's Truth.

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of "divine service", and a worldly sanctuary.

For who Red. Who was it that was to performed the "Divine Service" in the "worldly Sanctuary"?

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

What were these divers washings and meats and drinks performed by the Priests in the Tabernacle Red? Here, lets ask God.

God, what were the "meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation".

Ex. 29: 1 And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest's office: Take one young bullock, and two rams without blemish, 2 And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them. 3 And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams. 4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

15 Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram. 16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar. 17 And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head. 18 And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

31 And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place. 32 And Aaron and his sons "shall eat the flesh of the ram", and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

33 And "they shall eat" those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger (Non-Levite) shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

So this is the description of the "divine service", "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."


As anyone can see, Hebrews 9 isn't talking about God's Commandments or Judgments, Holy Sabbath, or Passover, or any of the Feasts of the Lord. It is talking about the Temporary Levitical Priesthood Covenant that was prophesied to end, to be replaced by a New Priesthood, after a different Order. You can find this Truth in Heb. 7, that I also do not ignore.

I only replied to you here to expose once again, not only your slander that I ignore Hebrews, which is false and malicious, but also to show that your tradition of cherry picking One verse, and separating it from the rest of the Bible to justify your rejection of God's Judgments and Statutes, doesn't justify you. Rather, it exposes you.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim @ MTMattie

That situation is never discussed in the Bible.

Well, Jim it is discussed, just not directly. In OT all were born again without water baptism; and no, the new birth is not a NT teaching, which is clear from John 3:1-8, before the NT was ratified with the blood of Jesus Christ Opinions do not count, as you well know, and thank you for not saying what your opinion is, for no one cares, and God certainly does not, and neither does he care about mine, or anyone else that may come to one's mind.

Water baptism has not one thing to do with the new birth. Yet, all who believe in Jesus Christ are commanded to be baptized into Christ, or, into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience before all who witness and an answer to God concerning one's faith in the gospel.

I will say this, anyone who profess to believe and yet refuses NT baptism, should be very concerned as to why they refuse to be baptized into the faith they claim to believe in, and yes, I'm thinking of Nora.

Infant baptism does not count as NT baptism, as a matter of fact, sprinkling does not count as NT baptism. This is not my opinion but clearing the teaching of the word of God. Baptism from the beginning of John the Baptist, baptism has always been by immersion into the water.

Matthew 3:16​

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”

 

[JLB]

context here is the children of Israel

they were his sheep.

if they repent then there is glory in heaven

these sheep did not repent. and then lose salvation then have to repent again.

why do y9ou put people back under law?

Ok. I will continue to fix these mistakes Jesus made in His teachings.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? No need to seek the one who became lost because lost really doesn’t mean lost. And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. No need to tell him about his sin because he can never be lost. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ No need for him to hear that he needs to turn back from his sin because once he is saved he is always saved. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. This couldn’t possibly be true because he is permanently sealed with the Holy Spirit and can never be lost.
Eternally-Greatful 18:12-17

 

[Studyman]

No trick question sir.


Just a question from a person who is trying to understand what you believe.


Since you didn’t answer my question I will ask you again.


Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Do you and your congregation obey this commandment to put to death people who do any work on the Sabbath?

I answered your question honestly, so you can understand what I believe. Here, let me post my answer again, only this time, actually read it. Feel free to ask me question about my detailed and from the heart answer.

Nevertheless, I do understand the commandment, and I will answer your question.

It's really quite simple. I'll use myself as an example.

When I was part of this world's religious system, I used to mock and disrespect God concerning God's Sabbaths, judgments and Commandments "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

I was ruled by my sinful flesh that despised God's Judgments and refused to "Yield myself" to Him, choosing instead to walk in the judgments and polluted sabbaths of men according to the traditions of this world's religions. Paul, before he turned to God, walked in the same spirit. But when I turned to God, I learned, as did Paul, that this man who mocked and rejected God's Judgments and Statutes, must be crucified, or as it is written in Moses and the Prophets, "Put to death". I also learned through study that this doesn't mean to literally commit suicide, but as it is written:

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

So God teaches me though His Holy Law how to treat others, "Thou shall not Kill". But HE also teaches me how to treat myself. "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy".

So I don't put others to death, because it is against God commandment, but I crucify the old man "IN ME" who rejects God and His Instruction in Righteousness. In this way, Paul teaches that I am "renewed in the spirit of your mind" so that I can "put on the new man", which after God (No longer man's traditions) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

As Paul teaches.

Gal. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified (put to death) the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So then, as Jesus instructs, I am "Living by" Every Word of God. And the Kingdom of God dwells within me, and the Temple of God is in my mind. Therefore "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD."

So Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, in the Kingdom of God that dwells in me, "he shall surely be put to death".

Therefore, the old man in me who breaks God's Sabbaths, is "put to death" in obedience to God's Commandments. So that the New Man, "Which after God is created in righteousness and true Holiness", can honor and respect God in His Sabbaths, and Live.

This is the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible", as it is written:

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart (the old one put to death) and a new spirit (Spirit of Christ) for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

In my early years of being a Christian, I would have to become more like my Savior.
But then I started to really read the bible and I saw all those WORKS/good deeds sentences.
Then I began to learn that one could forfeit their salvation.

you did not learn this from scripture.

If you can forfiet, it means you must earn..

Then I began to hear CHRISTIANS state that nothing is needed from us but faith.

for salvation, yes

for christian growth. no.. it takes lots of learnign to trust God in each area of our lives

That's not what I was learning from the word of God.

then you were not reading correctly

I was learning that BY DOING good works/deeds, I was becoming more like our Savior.

yes. but that does not save you make you more saved or keep you from losing salvation

I learned that Jesus did not mean to only be our atonement,,,
but He also wanted to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth.

yes, agree 100%

I began to learn that we are required to do good works...

not to stay saved, but to grow in grace and truth, and be more like Christ

so maybe now I'd say to keep our salvation by OBEYING God.

which is a works based. merit based. salvation.

you better obey the whole law. because thats prety much what you have decided. you must obey, God set the standard.

If we obey God we will be doing good works.

amen

If we DO NOT do good works,,,as some advocate...
we will not be obeying God.

amen, and no one advocates this. please stop accusing falsly..


Context is where your missing the point

And I'm not the one to judge where that will bring any particular person...
but the NT does warn against falling away...departing from the faith...straying, etc.

Yes. departing from grace

Before grace has been applied to you.. People come to churches all the time, and get close. and at last minute decide it is not for them and walk away

they did not lose salvation.

Did I remember to post 1 John chapters 1 and 2?
Did I post 1 John 3:9?

What's the difference??

LOL
Works involved.

yes, Whoever is born of God can not live in sin.. because they have been born of God

if they can not live in sin they can not lose salvation.

why?

whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God that is our former state, when we were dogs.

We will not fall away and lose salvation when we can not even return to what we were before. at no time in a saved persons life are they worse than they were before they were saved

 

[MTMattie]

What is TYVM?

Thank you very much.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There you go EG.
The above is the type of statement that no Christian should make!

You said:
"The sin issue is resolved. No one will be punished eternally for sin".

So Jesus did not pay it all?

what did he do on the cross?

Jesus said over and over, whoever does not believe is condemned, Not whoever sins. Because the sin issue is resolved.

I know you don't mean it,
but that sounds like:
We could sin and still go to heaven because the sin issue has been resolved.

No.

it means that our sin can not condemn us, If it could. we are under law.. are you under law?

This has been my point all along:
Incorrect theology brings to incorrect statements.

yes. And incorrect theology causes a person to see a correct statement as incorrect.

or, at least, statements that are not clear or in agreement with scripture.

It is clear

Jesus went to the cross.

All mankind's sin were put on his body

He paid the debt for everyone's sins (unless your a calvinist) so that whoever believes will not perish but live forever.

he who believes is not condemned,

he who does not believe is condemned already

those are the two determining factors of who will be saved and who will not

not sin.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Define die. Which death do we all incur "in Adam"?

The wage of sin was spiritual death.

Adam died the moment he sinned

when he sinned, all sinned.. because adam is the human head.


lets talk about baptism. why do y9ou want to earn your salvation?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not true. Nothing physical is eternal. The physical universe will cease to exist

12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;

This is not a spiritual land, or heavenly jerusalem. And the nation is not the church.

Gen 15:
17 ;And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
This is not heavenly jerusalem

Gen 17: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

this is not heavenly Jerusalem. it is physical land

as long as that land exists. the promise stands..

The land exists still today. hence everlasting is stil in effect..