Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

More Calvinist nonsense even if you do not call yourself a Calvinist.

dude, if you want me to even consider you in conversation. You will stop with the Calvinist nonsense.

If your angry at calvin, thats fine, take it out on him

don't accuse me of believing something I have never believed or followed.. or I will consider you bearing false witness and not count anything you say as fact

We don't need Adam's sin imputed to us.

Your right, I do nto need it.

But it was..

We have enough of our own.

Jesus paid for your own sin.. What part of your sins were hung on a cross do you not fathom?

Besides, God would never impute the sin of one to another. That would be the epitome of injustice. You have the Calvinist view of an unjust God.

I am in adam. in unbelief..

he who believes is not condemned,

he who does not believe is condemned already

from birth until i repent and come to faith. I am in a condemned state.

its not a calvinist issue.

The fall (adams unbelief) was passed down to me,, in my own unbelief, my nature..

its not a calvinist thing. I could care less what they think about this issue

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Calvinists aren't the only ones to get it wrong. But some of the things they get wrong were established in Calvinism even if they do not claim to be Calvinists. The false doctrine of Original Sin is just a step away from even worse doctrine of Total Depravity.

Good golly man

you are totally unable to converse with anyone with this mindset.

You will see things that are not there

this whole Calvinist/Arminian debate is filled with this issue of inability to see based on blinders people on both sides put on

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Calvinism certainly does. So do the die hard predestination believers who do not believe they have a bit of control over themselves when it comes to having faith.

but that's not universalism

thats fatalism..

fatalism says no one has a choice. their end is predermined.

Universalism says everyone, even athiests, will still get to heaven

 

[Jim]

The fall (adams unbelief) was passed down to me,, in my own unbelief, my nature..

And just how do you think that happened? Who caused Adam's sin to be imputed to you? God? Ridiculous!!

its not a calvinist thing. I could care less what they think about this issue

Oh, but Original Sin certainly is a Calvinist thing. Unfortunately, too many non-Calvinists have bought into the fallacy.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No. That promise was fulfilled.

lol

so an eternal promise is fullfilled even though the land is still there. and eternity has not yet ended.

no wonder you believe we can lose salvation. You do not believe in eternal promises..

 

[Jim]

lol

so an eternal promise is fullfilled even though the land is still there. and eternity has not yet ended.

no wonder you believe we can lose salvation. You do not believe in eternal promises..

Forever and eternal are two different things. Forever can be conditional. The forever of the promised land for the nation Isreal was conditional. The condition was not met. nor can it ever be met now. That opportunity passed.

 

[MTMattie]

But water baptism was/is the occasion when God forgives sin.

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

And whoever believes and IS NOT baptized???????????????????????????????????????

no one ever has an opinion on this or shopws it biblically.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.


Need I go on? Do you really think that anyone who has eternal life has not had their sins forgiven?

Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Believing is a work, though not a work of law, that we do.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

But water baptism was/is the occasion when God forgives sin.

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

John also demanded people show proof they had already recieved remission of sin before he would baptize them

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent is spoken to everyone. Be baptized is only spoken to a select few

and the word for here should be interpreted on account of already recieved remission. Not in order to gain it.\

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I was baptized by God.. a year before I was baptized in water.

1. The verse is questionable at best. most likely not part of origional scripture
2. This verse contradicts jesus words in John 3
3. Even if it is real. it does not mean water baptism. Jesus would not contradict himself (again see John 3.. and in fact many other passages in John)

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

Yep no baptism

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Yep no baptism

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Amen, Again no water baptism

Need I go on? Do you really think that anyone who has eternal life has not had their sins forgiven?

Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Believing is a work, though not a work of law, that we do.

Believing is whos work?

Read jesus words. it is A WORK OF GOD.

Without Gods work in your life and his word. you would never believe, you did not believe on your own.. And no. this is not calvinists.. God can draw a person and not make them alive in sin first as calvin teaches

if you think water baptism saves. that would be a false gospel.

 

[Doug Brents]

no.. unless they are perfect. obedience will nto save them

john 1,. But as many as have recieved him, to them he gave the right to become children. even to those who believe in his name

Those who RECEIVE Him, those who HAVE FAITH/BELIEVE in Him receive the right TO BECOME His children. They have to do something to become His children.

you just contradicted yourself.

in one breath you say not merited.

then in another you say we must do a few things.

There is no contradiction there at all. The conditions must be met, but meeting those conditions does not merit the gift.

that would be meriting salvation by doing those things

No, it is not.

I trusted God to save me..

I proved that trust by obeying the gospel.

now that God has perfected me forever. he is in the process of sanctifying me, or making me more like him..

When did the walls of Jericho fall? When the nation of Israel "believed" God? Or when they had marched around the city one time on the first day? Or when they had finished marching around the city the seventh time on the seventh day?
When did leprosy leave Naaman? When he turned to go home? Or when he turned from going home toward Jordan? Or when he dipped in Jordan the first time? Or when he had dipped the seventh time?
Grace is received through faith, not before faith. And faith is not real until it has been demonstrated through obedient action.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And just how do you think that happened? Who caused Adam's sin to be imputed to you? God? Ridiculous!!

God put me in adam

Who else woulod? Satan?

Yes, your belief is rediculous

Oh, but Original Sin certainly is a Calvinist thing. Unfortunately, too many non-Calvinists have bought into the fallacy.

Oh but its not

this is your last warning

listen to me, not calvin, or I will consider you spoonfed and not worth discussing anythign with. because you rmind is closed

 

[Doug Brents]

lol

so an eternal promise is fullfilled even though the land is still there. and eternity has not yet ended.

no wonder you believe we can lose salvation. You do not believe in eternal promises..

Forever and eternal are two different things. Forever can be conditional. The forever of the promised land for the nation Isreal was conditional. The condition was not met. nor can it ever be met now. That opportunity passed.

Jim is correct for the most part.
But the promise still remains in that it will be fulfilled in the Heavenly Jerusalem. The Promised Land is not a physical land, just as eternal life is not going to be on this Earth. Our home is Heavenly, and spiritual in nature, not in this reality.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Forever and eternal are two different things. Forever can be conditional.

wow talk about trying to make the word fit your belief system

Gen 17: . 8 ;Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

He said I GIVE YOU

he did not say, I will let you have this land as long as you do something

everlasting possession.. that still is valid today.. it is still theirs.. They are just being kept out because of their sin

The forever of the promised land for the nation Isreal was conditional. The condition was not met. nor can it ever be met now. That opportunity passed.

no. it was not conditional.

the abrahamic covenant is not conditional. Gen 12, 15 and 17 prove this.

God gave it to them.

it is met now. it still exists
everlasting has not ended
and if they repent according to lev 26, God will restore them

in fact OT prophets even Paul in romans 11 says they will repent, and they will be restored.

but it appears you do ot believe in eternal security either. so it makes sense

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Those who RECEIVE Him, those who HAVE FAITH/BELIEVE in Him receive the right TO BECOME His children. They have to do something to become His children.

Yes.
]
they must recieve him, period. nothign else is required.. Jesus paid the price of redemption on the cross "it is finished"

There is no contradiction there at all. The conditions must be met, but meeting those conditions does not merit the gift.

Yes they would,,

No, it is not.

whatever

When did the walls of Jericho fall? When the nation of Israel "believed" God? Or when they had marched around the city one time on the first day? Or when they had finished marching around the city the seventh time on the seventh day?
When did leprosy leave Naaman? When he turned to go home? Or when he turned from going home toward Jordan? Or when he dipped in Jordan the first time? Or when he had dipped the seventh time?
Grace is received through faith, not before faith. And faith is not real until it has been demonstrated through obedient action.

lol.. what does this have to do with you falling on your knees crying out like the pharisee.

and not pumping your chest boasting of all your good works.

 

[Jim]

God put me in adam

What do you think "in Adam" means? Support it with scripture.

Yes, your belief is rediculous

Says the one whose belief that God imputed Adam's sin to the rest of all mankind. Talk about ridiculous. Even worse, thinking that God would do such a thing is a slap in the face of God.

Oh but its not

Oh but it is.

this is your last warning

A warning? LOL!! And then what?

listen to me, not calvin, or I will consider you spoonfed and not worth discussing anythign with. because you rmind is closed

Actually, even though I detest the soteriology of Calvin, I do not think yours is much better.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jim is correct for the most part.

actually, jim is wrong on all parts.

But the promise still remains in that it will be fulfilled in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Israel was not promised heavenly Jerusalem

Israel was not told they would be strangers and slaves in a foreign land for 400 years because the people in their land had not completed their sin yet.

Israel did not enter a land, and once they got into it. given the laws of moses to tell them what they needed to do to enjoy that land.

They were not promised heavenly jerusalem

if they were. all jews are saved..

The Promised Land is not a physical land, just as eternal life is not going to be on this Earth. Our home is Heavenly, and spiritual in nature, not in this reality.

God promised Israel physical land.. Not heaven.

again, if he promised them heaven, all jews are saved.

 

[Jim]

Jim is correct for the most part.
But the promise still remains in that it will be fulfilled in the Heavenly Jerusalem. The Promised Land is not a physical land, just as eternal life is not going to be on this Earth. Our home is Heavenly, and spiritual in nature, not in this reality.

The land promised to the nation Isreal was physical land. But as you indicated, the promised land for Spiritual Israel is not physical land.

 

[Jim]

And whoever believes and IS NOT baptized???????????????????????????????????????

That situation is never discussed in the Bible.

no one ever has an opinion on this or shopws it biblically.

Actually, I do have an opinion on that, but it is only an opinion.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

When Adam failed, we all failed.
HE is the federal head of humanity.

Amen~Amazingly you understand this truth, yet do not follow the scriptures in believing all of Romans 5:12-19~ @Jim is wrong, but he at least is consistence is what he said that he understands. He presents a logically path to the conclusion of his overall understanding, even though so wrong.

 

[MTMattie]

That situation is never discussed in the Bible.

Actually, I do have an opinion on that, but it is only an opinion.

TYVM

 

[Jim]

TYVM

What is TYVM?