Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[JLB]

@GodsGrace

No, all do not understand the sense in which the Spirit of God used "foreknow" is Romans 8:29. I explained it above so will forgo doing it again, especially so since you do not desire to know the true biblical sense. That's your choice, and you can live with that.

Without knowing the true sense of Romans 8:29 use of foreknow then you cannot come to the knowledge of the truth therein like you so far have not been able to do.

I gave you the answer based upon the true meaning of the word foreknow as it is used by Paul, and understood by most all bible commentaries up until around the last one hundred and fifty years or so. I know, I have read many of them. Here is one of so many that could be provided around three hundred years ago:

Verse 29. For whom he did foreknow,.... The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son; having perfect, distinct, special knowledge of them, joined with love to them, he predetermined, or fore-appointed them in his eternal mind, in his everlasting and unchangeable purposes and decrees to this end, conformity to the image of Christ; which is not to be understood of the Spirit of Christ: God's elect indeed are chosen to be holy, and through sanctification of the Spirit, but are never said to be conformed, made like to the Spirit, nor is the Spirit ever called the image of Christ; but this designs either likeness to Christ as the Son of God, or conformity to him in his human nature. There is indeed a great disparity between the sonship of Christ, and of the saints; he is the eternal and natural Son of God, he is the one and only begotten Son, they are adopted ones, yet in some things there is a likeness; as he is the Son of God, so are they the sons of God, though not in the same sense; as he is a beloved Son, so are they; as he is the firstborn with respect them, they are the firstborn with respect to angels; as he has an inheritance, so have they; moreover, he has a very great concern in their sonship; the predestination of them to it is by him; the blessing itself is founded on union to him, on their conjugal relation to him, and his assumption of their nature; it comes to them through his redemption, and is actually bestowed on them by him; and this conformity to Christ as sons, will mere fully appear hereafter, when they shall be like him, and see him as he is: or this may be understood of the saints' conformity to Christ in his human nature, both here and hereafter: here in holiness; the image of God was in in his first creation, this is defaced by sin; and in regeneration, the image of Christ is stamped, his grace is wrought in them, his Spirit is put into them, to enable them to walk in him, and after him: this will be complete hereafter, and will consist in perfect holiness, being freed from the very being, as well as the power and guilt of sin; in perfect knowledge of everything that will tend to their happiness; and in glory like to Christ, both in soul and body:" John Gill November 23, 1697 – October 14, 1771

Brother,

Quoting some commentary from a Calvinist means little to those who desire the truth of scripture.


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29


Here is the key phrase of this passage:

• He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

How is one conformed to the image of God’s Son?


One must take heed to what Paul writes just a few chapters later.

• And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2


We have a part to play in this work of being conformed to the image of God’s Son.


The first step is to separate ourselves from this world, and being conformed to this world.


This is the work of consecration.


Each of us must choose to cooperate with the Holy Spirit to live our lives in harmony with the Spirit and learn to “sow” to the Spirit.

We must make the conscious decision to invest our time towards the things of the Spirit; the things the Holy Spirit leads us to do.

 

[JLB]

If God saved those who loved Him before the foundation of the world...
does this mean they were born saved?

Yes that’s what is taught by many Calvinist’s although they won’t admit it openly.

Their theology boils down to God Sovereignly saves them then sometime later they believe.


In their mindset they have no need to be born again.


Theirs is a “Christ-less” salvation. A salvation that comes without hearing and believing the message of Jesus Christ.


This is the same mindset the (elect) Jews had in the first century.

They believed because they were the natural offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob they were already saved.

Elected from birth to be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

They believed He was a good teacher. They didn't have saving faith. They also had no trust.

And lets not forget what Jesus said.

21.“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23. And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23

Bad verse to prove your point Cyrus.

Jesus didn't mention anything about saving faith in Matthew 7:21-23.
He didn't mention anything about trust.
He didn't mention anything about being saved.

THIS is what Jesus mentioned:

Matthew 7:23
‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Jesus will not recognize the workers of lawlessness.
Lawlessness means not keeping the Laws of Jesus.

 

[Manasseh]

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Are you saying “my sheep” refers to someone “not sanctified”, someone who doesn’t really “believe”?

I made no mention of sheep. Now the as for Luke 15:4-7 I found this

Religious leaders are condemning Jesus' decision to engage people they deem "too sinful" to even acknowledge. Jesus responds with three parables that show how God longs to reconcile with those who need Him most (Luke 15:1–3). Jesus begins here with the parable of the lost sheep. Jesus frames the parable to put the listener in the role of the main character. You are a shepherd. You have ninety-nine sheep. One of them wanders off, which is unwise, unsafe, and irrational. Roaming away from protection and safety is "stupid," in the sense of being a terrible choice. Still, what would a shepherd do about such a sheep?

This challenge has historical significance. The Pharisees are religious leaders. While not as official as priests, they are more familiar to the people and more easily respected. Practically speaking, they are the primary spiritual leaders of the people; they are the "shepherds" of that "flock." But Jewish spiritual shepherds do not have a good track record. In Ezekiel 34, God strongly condemns religious leaders who abuse, take advantage of, and abandon God's people (Ezekiel 34:1–5). He specifically says, "My sheep were scattered; they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. My sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth, with none to search or seek for them" (Ezekiel 34:5–6).

Jesus is challenging the Pharisees to see themselves as they really are. They have abused and abandoned the people by burdening them with laws God did not give them and then refusing to help them fulfill those laws (Luke 11:46). Instead, they should emulate God and actively seek out and rescue the foolish. The Pharisees should welcome the sinners and tax collectors and invite them to meals. Spiritually, sinners are the "poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind" (Luke 14:13) and the Pharisees will be blessed by God for feeding those who cannot repay (Luke 14:14). BibleRef

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes that’s what is taught by many Calvinist’s although they won’t admit it openly.

Their theology boils down to God Sovereignly saves them then sometime later they believe.


In their mindset they have no need to be born again.


Theirs is a “Christ-less” salvation. A salvation that comes without hearing and believing the message of Jesus Christ.


This is the same mindset the (elect) Jews had in the first century.

They believed because they were the natural offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob they were already saved.

Elected from birth to be saved.

Amen.
I've often said that in reformed/calvinist theology there is really no reason why Jesus would have had to die for anyone
since God could have just chosen who would be saved Based On Nothing.

It negates John 3:16 and makes Jesus' sacrifice of no effect.

If they are born saved....
they do not need salvation...

 

[synergy]

Amen.
I've often said that in reformed/calvinist theology there is really no reason why Jesus would have had to die for anyone
since God could have just chosen who would be saved Based On Nothing.

It negates John 3:16 and makes Jesus' sacrifice of no effect.

If they are born saved....
they do not need salvation...

Exactly!

Also, if you couple the Biblical fact that God's desire is that all are saved with the calvinist belief that human have no say in the matter then that proves that calvinists are Universalists.

 

[Cyrus]

Bad verse to prove your point Cyrus.
Jesus didn't mention anything about saving faith in Matthew 7:21-23.
He didn't mention anything about trust.
He didn't mention anything about being saved.
THIS is what Jesus mentioned:
Matthew 7:23
‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Jesus will not recognize the workers of lawlessness.
Lawlessness means not keeping the Laws of Jesus.

Bad for you maybe but it works for me.

Your telling me Jesus will not recognize workers of lawlessness? Hows that work?

Because, John 2:25 states, He “knew what was in man.” He knew the hearts of those professing faith. This is an indication of our Lord's deity, for only the Lord can search the heart and make the right evaluation

 

[GodsGrace]

Bad for you maybe but it works for me.

Your telling me Jesus will not recognize workers of lawlessness? Hows that work?

Because, John 2:25 states, He “knew what was in man.” He knew the hearts of those professing faith. This is an indication of our Lord's deity, for only the Lord can search the heart and make the right evaluation

Who said Jesus is not God?

If Jesus does not recognize workers of lawlessness...
HOW will He be able to judge anyone?

 

[JLB]

I made no mention of sheep. Now the as for Luke 15:4-7 I found this

Religious leaders are condemning Jesus' decision to engage people they deem "too sinful" to even acknowledge. Jesus responds with three parables that show how God longs to reconcile with those who need Him most (Luke 15:1–3). Jesus begins here with the parable of the lost sheep. Jesus frames the parable to put the listener in the role of the main character. You are a shepherd. You have ninety-nine sheep. One of them wanders off, which is unwise, unsafe, and irrational. Roaming away from protection and safety is "stupid," in the sense of being a terrible choice. Still, what would a shepherd do about such a sheep?

This challenge has historical significance. The Pharisees are religious leaders. While not as official as priests, they are more familiar to the people and more easily respected. Practically speaking, they are the primary spiritual leaders of the people; they are the "shepherds" of that "flock." But Jewish spiritual shepherds do not have a good track record. In Ezekiel 34, God strongly condemns religious leaders who abuse, take advantage of, and abandon God's people (Ezekiel 34:1–5). He specifically says, "My sheep were scattered; they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. My sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth, with none to search or seek for them" (Ezekiel 34:5–6).

Jesus is challenging the Pharisees to see themselves as they really are. They have abused and abandoned the people by burdening them with laws God did not give them and then refusing to help them fulfill those laws (Luke 11:46). Instead, they should emulate God and actively seek out and rescue the foolish. The Pharisees should welcome the sinners and tax collectors and invite them to meals. Spiritually, sinners are the "poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind" (Luke 14:13) and the Pharisees will be blessed by God for feeding those who cannot repay (Luke 14:14). BibleRef

Here are some simple truths from this teaching.

Truths that the Pharisee’s may not have grasped.

However, there is also a message for His disciples in this passage, which we will look at.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

The sheep who wanders away belongs to the shepherd. It is His sheep who has become lost.

(there is also another truth is this verse that teaches us a valuable truth)


And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Again the emphasis is it is His sheep, that was lost.



I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


His sheep who became lost must repent just as they did before they were saved.

While the sheep is in the lost condition they are called a “sinner”; a person separated from Christ.

While the sheep is in the lost condition they are no longer justified.



Can we ask ourselves an honest question?

Do the lost need salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Bad for you maybe but it works for me.

Your telling me Jesus will not recognize workers of lawlessness? Hows that work?

Because, John 2:25 states, He “knew what was in man.” He knew the hearts of those professing faith. This is an indication of our Lord's deity, for only the Lord can search the heart and make the right evaluation

Oh....
You took RECOGNIZE to mean that Jesus will NOT KNOW workers of lawlessness?

English Cyrus....
it's simple English spoken as it should be.

Recognize = Not Know as in Matthew 7:23

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman Going to correct one of your many misleading statements. My time will be short today because of a full schedule.

The weak and beggarly elements are fleshly rites of the Law You think they would be sick of carnal rites of worship after all they had been through! Whether pagan religious service or rites of Moses’ Law, why seek bondage again?"

Yes I said this, but never said what you want others to think I said ~ I never compared the laws of God to pagan laws, never. So, yes your argument is a strawman that you have built to argue against, making folks think you are arguing with me and exposing an error that I have, which I have never compared God's law to pagans. Even in the quote above I said:

"The weak and beggarly elements are fleshly rites of the Law You think they would be sick of carnal rites of worship after all they had been through! "Whether" pagan religious service or rites of Moses’ Law, why seek bondage again?"

You must read into what I said to come out believing what you said I believe. I used the word "Whether" not AS" But, let's laid this to rest ~ as I have said many times over, there are NO LAWS as spiritual, holy, and good as the laws of God, period. Is this clear?

There are certain laws which you cling to from the OT, that are fleshly in nature, and we provided the scriptures already: Galatians 4:9,10; Col 2:8,20-23;

Hebrews 9:10​

“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

Such scriptures you just ignore, because you still hold to many of them.

 

[Jim]

Amen.
I've often said that in reformed/calvinist theology there is really no reason why Jesus would have had to die for anyone
since God could have just chosen who would be saved Based On Nothing.

@GodsGrace, that is not true. Sin must be punished. We can either submit to the punishment of eternal condemnation ourselves or through faith in the gospel accept the punishment paid by Jesus on the cross on our behalf. God has not provided any other means for the punishment of our sins. The false concept of Calvinist/Reformed Theology election does not preclude the need for salvation. It is false to the point of being an absolutely hideous concept, but it does not do away with the need for punishment of sin.

If they are born saved....
they do not need salvation...

To be saved means that they were initially lost and needed to be saved. No one is "born saved" because no one is lost before being born. We are all born having not yet sinned. We are all born spiritually alive. The spirit formed in each of us by God is not dead in sin; the spirit is alive when God gives it. God does not give us dead spirits. If we live long enough to commit sin(s) against God, then we die spiritually and we need to be saved.

 

[Red Baker]

@Selah

In the flesh, everyone has the opportunity to be saved.

I must respectfully disagree.

God does not give all men equal (some he does not any, he leaves them in the darkness they were born in, he owes no man anything) opportunity to saved even in a practical sense, much less in a legal sense. By practical, I mean having the gospel preached freely and without any restraint so that people can come to a knowledge of the truth. I could approach this from many angles, but to keep it short, I will only say a few things quickly.

In OT, God revealed himself mainly to Israel, with a few exceptions, yet worship, ordinances, and laws were limited to the small nation of Israel. The opportunity to come to a true knowledge of God was limited to Israel, and only to them. His Prophets came from them, his laws and statues, yea his word was for Israel, not for China, etc., as a matter of fact, China has been left in the dark until this very day as a whole.

I own a business for years, and had a young man working for me that was raised in the communist nation of Poland at the time, he lived there. They escape and came to America. His family worshipped under ground before leaving. He told me a story of being in school as a youth and someone in the class said the word "Jesus" and a young boy jump up and went to that person and said~ Tell me about the word you just said..."Jesus" ~that word or any religious words were not allow to be spoken in openly in Poland at that time. So, all do not have an opportunity, especially so like we do in America and have since America was founded, even though we are slowly losing some privilege's.

But that being said, what does "opportunity" do for a person, if God does not will/purpose to show mercy? Not one thing! It only adds to a person's judgement.

What does opportunity do to a person taking them on walk through a beautiful garden if they are blind, as far as seeing the beautiful flowers, etc.?

What does opportunity do for a person who is dead to allow a breathing machine an opportunity to revile him? Sinners who are lost, are both dead and blinded to the truths of God and need life imparted to them before they can do spiritual acts pleasing to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace, that is not true. Sin must be punished. We can either submit to the punishment of eternal condemnation ourselves or through faith in the gospel accept the punishment paid be Jesus on the cross on our behalf. God has not provided any other means for the punishment of our sins. The false concept of Calvinist/Reformed Theology election does not preclude the need for salvation. It is false to the point of being an absolutely hideous concept, but it does not do away with the need for punishment of sin.

Why does sin need to be punished in Reformed/Calvinist theology?
In Reformed theology, God created evil and sin.
Why should I be punished for the sin God decrees for me to do if He is a just God?

God could just have decreed for us not to sin...
God could just have not created evil to entangle us.

There is no such thing as SIN in Calvinist theology when properly understood.
Thus...there is no need for a sacrifice.

The reason Jesus paid for our sins is because WE FREELY chose to commit sin.
Also, to establish the CONDITION for which we can be saved.
That condition is:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again.
John 3:16 tells us how to achieve that condition.

To be saved means that they were initially lost and needed to be saved. No one is "born saved" because no one is lost before being born. We are all born having not yet sinned. We are all born spiritually alive. The spirit formed in each of us by God is not dead in sin; the spirit is alive when God gives it. God does not give us dead spirits. If we live long enough to commit sin(s) against God, then we die spiritually and we need to be saved.

I really don't care to discuss with you a belief system that is not found in the bible.

If you want to hold on to your belief about our spirit....I invite you to do so.
It has nothing to do with soteriology so I will not debate it.

Anyway,, we begin to sin at an early age...so it works out about the same as believing in the age of reason.
So the argument, as far as I'm concerned, is moot.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree.
Sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

But sometimes they stray.
And are in real danger, even of death.
Most times a shepherd will find them.
Sometimes he doesn't or it's too late.

Jesus used metaphors for a reason.
Those people were shepherds, they understood Him.

so your saying God failed? Because he was unable to find them? Remember in John 6, He said he would lose no one..

Yes, he uses them for a reason. one to show us how stupid we are and we really should not puff ourselves up so much. Like Sheep

 

[GodsGrace]

@Jim


Jim,,,some have understood my post 1605, to which you posted a sad face.

Apparently, all other denominations except the one you belong to have the same understanding of human nature.
So don't be so sad....
examine your belief system instead.

God does NOT put an evil spirit in persons at birth.
Adam put that "evil spirit" in mankind at birth.

When Adam failed, we all failed.
HE is the federal head of humanity.

This is very clear from reading the NT.

I really don't care to get into it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If a person BELIEVES, he is saved.

Not true
If this was true all the jews who believed were saved, even though by adding circumcision they were called out by paul as false teachers and he said they should be anathema/

And in James, people who believed yet had no faith. Showing even demons believe.. in attempt to show them, hey you believe, you do well, even demons believe.

people can believe yet not have faith. faith saves..

Or we corrupt the meaning of the biblical word BELIEVE and it looses all its meaning.

No. Because the biblical word believe is not stringent, it has many facets.. I can believe or mentally agree. all the way up to yeah I trust completely and am confident.. or true living faith.

And as to saving faith...
someone else on this Forum mentioned this....

There is only faith.
Faith saves.

Amen

only one faith. A living faith

a dead faith or mere believe has never saved and never will

No such thing as saving faith.
It's redundant.

Well, if you want to add works. I can see how you would think this

but its not true

If I have FAITH,,,I'm saved.

IF the key word

not everyone who says they believe has faith.

we see this in paul in response to legalism, and in James Peter and Jude in response to easy believes or licentiousness..

 

[GodsGrace]

so your saying God failed? Because he was unable to find them? Remember in John 6, He said he would lose no one..

Yes, he uses them for a reason. one to show us how stupid we are and we really should not puff ourselves up so much. Like Sheep

We're also called Sons of God, by John.
We're also told we are a new creation, by Paul.

So did God fail?
Kind of the same question we get from Calvinists.

NO.
God did not fail.

God offered to us the gift of salvation.
It's up to us, the saved, to treasure it and take good care of it once we have it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree and believe they did.
Genesis 4:1
1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD."

how did this restore eves relationship with God. ie. make her born again?

 

[Jim]

In the flesh, everyone has the opportunity to be saved.

I am sorry to say that is not true.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

The opportunity to hear and believe is greater now than it has ever been due to the nearly world-wide access to a Bible. In so far as God has revealed to us, there are only two possibilities for mankind when this world ends; those are eternal life in the kingdom of God and eternal condemnation apart from the kingdom of God. Personally, I really hope that God will provide for at least another possibility, namely, something other than eternal condemnation, even if not eternal life in God's kingdom, for the one who never had the opportunity to hear. But that is not something that God has spoken about.