Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

I do not know. Could be either. I hope she is alright now, but is not for me to say.

and this is the most important part. its not for us to say or judge.

I can only understand why one would draw away for a while. She would have had zero encouragement from her Mother, and I doubt from her husband who seems kind of clueless , and with us she never talked much along the "religious/spiritual" lines except to talk of when she had gotten very mad at God.

Shoot... I have often complained about my life but she made mine look like I was living as Mary Poppins...

I left for 5 years..,

I never stopped trusting in God for my salvation. I lost faith in the church and probably in God for allowing things to happen.. but its because I did not know things I should have known. where the church failed me

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

They believed He was a good teacher. They didn't have saving faith. They also had no trust.

And lets not forget what Jesus said.

21.“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23. And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23

Yes

sadly many people will try to appease God with all their great feats and miracles and great works..

yet fail to realise, they never knew Jesus and Jesus never knew them.

they were into religion. not a relationship with the father. they never repented

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Bad verse to prove your point Cyrus.

Jesus didn't mention anything about saving faith in Matthew 7:21-23.
He didn't mention anything about trust.
He didn't mention anything about being saved.

THIS is what Jesus mentioned:

Matthew 7:23
‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Jesus will not recognize the workers of lawlessness.
Lawlessness means not keeping the Laws of Jesus.

yes

which when it comes down to it

would be every one of us.

Gods demand is perfection. if we even stumble in one area as James said, we are guilty..

so, we better have that curse removed from us, or we will suffer the fate of those workers who thought they were working for God

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Exactly!

Also, if you couple the Biblical fact that God's desire is that all are saved with the calvinist belief that human have no say in the matter then that proves that calvinists are Universalists.

to be a universalist you have to believe everyone will get to heaven no matter what

if your going to attack a religious group. at least attack them with truth. not with lies.. they are not universalists.

fatalists yes, universalists no

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Bad for you maybe but it works for me.

Your telling me Jesus will not recognize workers of lawlessness? Hows that work?

Because, John 2:25 states, He “knew what was in man.” He knew the hearts of those professing faith. This is an indication of our Lord's deity, for only the Lord can search the heart and make the right evaluation

hence why God does not make mistakes.

he does not save people and then years later have to take that salvation back because he did not know something out them

 

[GodsGrace]

Not true
If this was true all the jews who believed were saved, even though by adding circumcision they were called out by paul as false teachers and he said they should be anathema/

Well EG,,,,it depends on WHAT one believes in.
If a Jew believed in God and did his best to observe the 613 ordanences...
do you really believe he will be lost?

I'm sure you agree that even those in the OT were saved by faith in God.
EVEN IF they were circumcised because they were taught it was the right thing to do.

And in James, people who believed yet had no faith. Showing even demons believe.. in attempt to show them, hey you believe, you do well, even demons believe.

people can believe yet not have faith. faith saves..

Replied to above.

But I remind those reading along that, biblically, BELIEVE has a particular meaning.
It does NOT mean mental belief.

It's important to know what BELIEVE means in the NT.
We should all know this and if someone does not know, they should find out.

The demons believed Jesus was God.
They did NOT believe IN Jesus.
They did not follow His teachings.
They did not abide IN HIM.
etc.

No. Because the biblical word believe is not stringent, it has many facets.. I can believe or mentally agree. all the way up to yeah I trust completely and am confident.. or true living faith.

Amen

only one faith. A living faith

a dead faith or mere believe has never saved and never will

I agree. There's no such thing as a dead faith.
A dead faith does not work.
This is why James states that faith without works is a dead faith...
it's no faith at all unless it is accompanied by the obedience God demands.
FAITH ALONE is not biblical and does not work in Christianity.
It does NOT change the world for the better.
It is DEAD.

Well, if you want to add works. I can see how you would think this

This is your response?
What I stated is that there is no such thing as SAVING faith.
There is only faith.
We either have it or we don't.
If we have it, we're saved.

but its not true

IF the key word

Agreed. IF is the key word.
IF I have faith...I am saved.

not everyone who says they believe has faith.

Like I said, it depends on what they believe.

In the NT BELIEVE brings with it salvation.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES
Acts 16:31 BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVED
Romans 15:13 HOPE IN BELIEVING
John 20:29 BLESSED ARE THOSE THAT HAVE NOT SEEN BUT BELIEVE

There are many more verses, as you know, and the above capitalized are my words but do reflect the scripture.

we see this in paul in response to legalism, and in James Peter and Jude in response to easy believes or licentiousness..

I'm not sure I understand what legalism has to do with being saved.
See my first reply above.

Legalism does not condemn one to being lost.
It's just not what the NT teaches for Christians.

 

[GodsGrace]

to be a universalist you have to believe everyone will get to heaven no matter what

if your going to attack a religious group. at least attack them with truth. not with lies.. they are not universalists.

fatalists yes, universalists no

LOL
Synergy is not saying Calvinists are universalists!
He's making a point.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Who said Jesus is not God?

If Jesus does not recognize workers of lawlessness...
HOW will He be able to judge anyone?

well

since all have sinned and fall short. Its not really hard. we are all doomed and we all deserve judgment, so in effect. God just judges everyone

of course he loved everyone so he did make a way. He came and died in their place. He took that spiritual death we owe God and suffered as god on the cross for all mankind. so that it is also easy for him

whoever receives him, is given new life. born again, and made a child. and given the spirit as a pledge

so in essence there are two groups

He who believes (trusts and receives) is no longer condemned. they have passed from death to life and as Jesus said, shall not see judgment

those who do not believe, well they will receive the judgment we all deserve. because they rejected Gods provision.

in Adam - dead

In Christ - alive

the law is gone because Jesus took the curse of the law.. no one can be judged by the law anymore.. they will be judged for unbelief.

unless your a calvinist. where God only took the sins of a select few.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

His sheep who became lost must repent just as they did before they were saved.

While the sheep is in the lost condition they are called a “sinner”; a person separated from Christ.

While the sheep is in the lost condition they are no longer justified.



Can we ask ourselves an honest question?

Do the lost need salvation?

Oh no,

The sheep was his, they did not have to repent.

They knew his masters voice, and like dumb sheep followed him, it was by nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

how did this restore eves relationship with God. ie. make her born again?

Eve recognized that God helped her.
Do atheists or agnostics think God helps them?

Were Caine and Abel raised to believe in God and offer sacrifices to Him?
Do atheists or agnostics raise their children to know and worship God?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Oh....
You took RECOGNIZE to mean that Jesus will NOT KNOW workers of lawlessness?

English Cyrus....
it's simple English spoken as it should be.

Recognize = Not Know as in Matthew 7:23

He did not say this sis, please try to read what he says without assuming

 

[Jim]

Right, but they did die. Spiritually

At that point, they needed to be born again to have their relationship restored. God showed them how

To be born again was/is only available under the New Covenant. Being born again is strictly a New Covenant opportunity. Even though forgiveness of sin could be obtained through the sacrificial rites provided for before the coming of Jesus and His death, burial and resurrection. Strictly speaking, two things are required for salvation, namely forgiveness of sin and punishment for sin. The animal sacrifices provided for forgiveness of sin and (eventually) Jesus' suffering on the cross provided for the punishment.

As an added comment, from John the Baptism until Pentecost, it would appear that John's baptism would also provide for the forgiveness of sin also. That is a subject for another time.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes

which when it comes down to it

would be every one of us.

Gods demand is perfection. if we even stumble in one area as James said, we are guilty..

so, we better have that curse removed from us, or we will suffer the fate of those workers who thought they were working for God

I'm soooo tired of this EG.

Do YOU know anyone that is perfect?
I don't.

So does this mean we don't even TRY?

Jesus stated who He will not know:
Those That Are Lawless.

Those that don't follow the law...
Jesus' law, not the Law of Moses.

I sin...but I AM NOT LAWLESS.

Let's keep our definitions in line with the NT.
1 John 1 and 1 John 3:9

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@GodsGrace, that is not true. Sin must be punished. We can either submit to the punishment of eternal condemnation ourselves or through faith in the gospel accept the punishment paid be Jesus on the cross on our behalf. God has not provided any other means for the punishment of our sins. The false concept of Calvinist/Reformed Theology election does not preclude the need for salvation. It is false to the point of being an absolutely hideous concept, but it does not do away with the need for punishment of sin.

sin was punished on the cross. for all the world.. He did not just die for the elect. that's a Calvinist issue that is wrong

God will not force you to recieve his gift of salvation. He wants you to want it to desire it to trust him, and recieve it.

those who do will be saved because of faith

those who reject will be condemned because they did not believe.

the sin issue was resolved on the cross.

To be saved means that they were initially lost and needed to be saved. No one is "born saved" because no one is lost before being born. We are all born having not yet sinned. We are all born spiritually alive. The spirit formed in each of us by God is not dead in sin; the spirit is alive when God gives it. God does not give us dead spirits. If we live long enough to commit sin(s) against God, then we die spiritually and we need to be saved.

we are not born spiritually alive, we are born in adam.. so that we have the ability to be born in Christ.

 

[Studyman]

Here’s my question again, based on the law of Moses.


Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Do you and your congregation obey this commandment to put to death people who do any work on the Sabbath?

I knew your question was a trick question for the purpose of demeaning and discrediting me as a hypocrite for believing in God, when you first asked it. I gave you my honest, from the heart answer which you completely dismissed, The mainstream preachers of Jesus time used the same malicious tactic on Him. HE said if I followed Him, I would be treated in the same way. And you have proved him Right, once again. I don't don't hold a grudge against you for your malice, it's kind of an honor actually.

It does seem foolish however, for you to imply that if I really obeyed God, I would have to go around putting folks who rejected God's Sabbaths to death. And it is hypocritical that you guys claim to obey the Law of Moses where God's adultery commandment is concerned, but you don't go around stoning adulterers to death.

Really, honesty is a much better approach JLB. Malice and trickery are of the spirit of this world. You would do good to "abstain" from such tactics.

Nevertheless, I do understand the commandment, and I will answer your question.

It's really quite simple. I'll use myself as an example.

When I was part of this world's religious system, I used to mock and disrespect God concerning God's Sabbaths, judgments and Commandments "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

I was ruled by my sinful flesh that despised God's Judgments and refused to "Yield myself" to Him, choosing instead to walk in the judgments and polluted sabbaths of men according to the traditions of this world's religions. Paul, before he turned to God, walked in the same spirit. But when I turned to God, I learned, as did Paul, that this man who mocked and rejected God's Judgments and Statutes, must be crucified, or as it is written in Moses and the Prophets, "Put to death". I also learned through study that this doesn't mean to literally commit suicide, but as it is written:

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

So God teaches me though His Holy Law how to treat others, "Thou shall not Kill". But HE also teaches me how to treat myself. "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy".

So I don't put others to death, but I crucify the old man who rejects God and His Instruction in Righteousness. In this way Paul teaches that I am "renewed in the spirit of your mind" so that I can "put on the new man", which after God (No longer man's traditions) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

As Paul teaches.

Gal. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified (put to death) the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So then, as Jesus instructs, I am "Living by" Every Word of God. And the Kingdom of God dwells within me, and the Temple of God is in my mind. Therefore "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD."

So Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, in the Kingdom of God that dwells in me, "he shall surely be put to death".

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

He did not say this sis, please try to read what he says without assuming

I think he took my word RECOGNIZE to mean that Jesus will not be able to judge.
I could be wrong...he never replied.

I base this on his reply to me where he's stating that Jesus will know everyone.
Again,,,I could be wrong.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We're also called Sons of God, by John.
We're also told we are a new creation, by Paul.

So did God fail?

No. For by one offering he perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

God will not fail.

we have failed. are failing and will continue to fail but God did not

Kind of the same question we get from Calvinists.

Or realists?

NO.
God did not fail.

But did he?
he said he would never lose anyone. and you said he just lost some sheep because he could not find them

sometimes you just need to think about what you say

God offered to us the gift of salvation.
It's up to us, the saved, to treasure it and take good care of it once we have it.

No. it is Gods gift. He takes care of it.

we are sheep. we can not take care of it..

your giving yourself to much credit. while stating God can fail

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I am sorry to say that is not true.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

The opportunity to hear and believe is greater now than it has ever been due to the nearly world-wide access to a Bible. In so far as God has revealed to us, there are only two possibilities for mankind when this world ends; those are eternal life in the kingdom of God and eternal condemnation apart from the kingdom of God. Personally, I really hope that God will provide for at least another possibility, namely, something other than eternal condemnation, even if not eternal life in God's kingdom, for the one who never had the opportunity to hear. But that is not something that God has spoken about.

do you realize you just agreed with her, while you stated she was wrong?

 

[Jim]

Why does sin need to be punished in Reformed/Calvinist theology?

God is Holy and therefore cannot abide sin even in Calvinist/Reformed theology.

I really don't care to discuss with you a belief system that is not found in the bible.

It is there, you simply refuse to see it and admit to it. You are of course free to reject whatever you wish to reject.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well EG,,,,it depends on WHAT one believes in.

or who and what?

If a Jew believed in God and did his best to observe the 613 ordanences...
do you really believe he will be lost?

yes. if he did not receive Gods gift of life.

proof is the pharisees. they did their best. and did it better than anyone else. and Jesus said their righteousness was not good enough

I'm sure you agree that even those in the OT were saved by faith in God.
EVEN IF they were circumcised because they were taught it was the right thing to do.

Yes. If they had faith like Abraham

if they trusted their circumcision or obedience to the law as a means of salvation. then no.. they would be as lost as the Pharisees and the religious legalists we have today

But I remind those reading along that, biblically, BELIEVE has a particular meaning.
It does NOT mean mental belief.

Yes. So you admit, there are different beliefs. Thank you

there are many ways one can mentally believe and not be saved

It's important to know what BELIEVE means in the NT.
We should all know this and if someone does not know, they should find out.

I already gave you the answer.

the word means to have faith, to trust, to be confident, to be assured and also to believe.

The demons believed Jesus was God.
They did NOT believe IN Jesus.
They did not follow His teachings.
They did not abide IN HIM.
etc.

again the focus was not on the demons, it was on the people.

"if you believe YOU do well"
these people believed. James let them know wow great, but hey, even demons believe

I agree. There's no such thing as a dead faith.
A dead faith does not work.
This is why James states that faith without works is a dead faith...
it's no faith at all unless it is accompanied by the obedience God demands.
FAITH ALONE is not biblical and does not work in Christianity.
It does NOT change the world for the better.
It is DEAD.

But it is living faith that saves. A dead faith can not save. which is James point

These people did not lose salvation. they never had faith, they did NO WORKS

works proves faith has occured.. which proves salvation is real.. but not to God. God knows a persons heart.. saying faith is required says God does not know if a persons hear faith is real or dead.

This is your response?
What I stated is that there is no such thing as SAVING faith.
There is only faith.
We either have it or we don't.
If we have it, we're saved.

saved, a completed action

Agreed. IF is the key word.
IF I have faith...I am saved.

if your saved your saved.

if it can be lost. your not really saved now are you.

Like I said, it depends on what they believe.

In the NT BELIEVE brings with it salvation.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES
Acts 16:31 BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVED
Romans 15:13 HOPE IN BELIEVING
John 20:29 BLESSED ARE THOSE THAT HAVE NOT SEEN BUT BELIEVE

or trusts.

There are many more verses, as you know, and the above capitalized are my words but do reflect the scripture.

yes

those people trusted God.. they did not have mental ascent.

they trusted God, they trusted his words. and they trusted his promise

do you?

I'm not sure I understand what legalism has to do with being saved.
See my first reply above.

it has nothing to do with being saved. a legalists believes, but has no faith. their faith is in their ability to work or keep themselves saved.

Legalism does not condemn one to being lost.

yes it does

It's just not what the NT teaches for Christians.

study paul..

study jesus words.

they attack those trying to insert works to the gospel..

a legalist has no faith in God.. they are no better than a licentious person.. both in pride reject the truth of the gospel