Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[MTMattie]

They would become an antichrist.

And John said they wer enever of us. If they were of us, they would never have departed.

Once again, You do not just lose faith in something this important..

You do not one minute repent and admit you are lost. And without hope and only God can save you then get on your knees and cry out

Only to the next minute tell yourself it was all a lie you did not really believe it in the first place. There is no god..

Here is a story that is true.

For a time my friend lost her faith.

First, she had been married to a wife beater.... and because of that she had multiple miscarriages when she was married.

She divorced him, and I know that is not an acceptable reason to God.... ( Cannot believe he approves?)

Anyway she remarried after sometime and she got pregnant. After, I forget how many miscarriages from the beatings etc... 4 or 5 min... she was elated and came the day for the child to be born.

Because, according to the docs, of all the beatings her uterus collapsed and the daughter was born with both
Spina Bifida AND Cerebral Palsy.

This one did loose her faith for a long while before she got it back.

As to the child... she is now about 45 years old and lives in a Shriners Home in Erie PA. She has been there 40 some years, not able to talk, and only in a wheel chair. Mental ability is that of a 5 or 6 year old.

The mom died shortly after Covid came on the scene...

 

[Manasseh]

Well, it doesn't take a minute.
I know a doctor that used to be a believer and then became an atheist later on in life.
I asked him what happened to change him.
He said he saw too many things and mentioned just a couple...one having to do with children, of course.
You now,,,the old problem of evil and suffering.

Bart Ehrman was Christian and is now an agnostic.
It happens.

Paul warns against turning our backs on God.
It must mean that it's possible.

Have you ever read about Charles Templeton

There was a time when Charles Templeton was one of the most popular sectarian evangelists in the nation. He was a bosom buddy of Billy Graham. They were, at times, preaching team-mates.

In 1996, Charles Templeton published his book, the title of which expresses the sentiment just stated. Farewell to God — My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith sets forth the rationale the former evangelist believed invalidates the credibility of the Bible in general and Christianity in particular.

But did he stay in that mindset or Dis Jesus go get that one lost lamb? I think He did.

In doing research for The Case For Faith, Strobel sought out and was granted an interview with Templeton in his penthouse apartment on the twenty-fifth floor of a high rise in Toronto, Canada.

Here is the part I like.

Then, Strobel directed the old gentleman’s attention to Christ. How would he now assess Jesus at this stage of his life?

Strobel says that, amazingly, Templeton’s “body language softened.” His voice took on a “melancholy and reflective tone.” And then, incredibly, he said:

“He was the greatest human being who has ever lived. He was a moral genius. His ethical sense was unique. He was the intrinsically wisest person that I’ve ever encountered in my life or in my reading. His commitment was total and led to his own death, much to the detriment of the world.”

Mind you, he’s talking about the same Teacher who claimed to have existed eternally before Abraham was born (Jn. 8:58), who asserted his oneness of nature with God, the Father (Jn. 10:30), and who allowed men to honor him as “Lord and God” (Jn. 20:28).

If these things were not true, that would make Jesus of Nazareth the most preposterous and outrageous con-man who ever walked the earth. Thousands happily went to their deaths, in the most horrible ways imaginable, confessing his deity.

But the interview continued.

Strobel quietly commented: “You sound like you really care about him.”

“Well, yes,” Templeton acknowledged, “he’s the most important thing in my life.”

He stammered: “I . . . I . . . I adore him . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus.”

Strobel was stunned. He listened in shock. He says that Templeton’s voice began to crack. He then said, “I . . . miss . . . him!”

With that, the old man burst into tears. With a shaking frame, he wept bitterly.

Finally, Templeton gained control of his emotions and wiped away the tears.

“Enough of that,” he said, as he waved his hand as if to suggest that there would be no more questions along that line.

Sad, sad indeed!

A Skeptic Reflects upon Jesus Christ

This article discusses author Lee Stroble's interview with skeptic, Charles Templeton.

christiancourier.com

 

[GodsGrace]

We help them go look for it. Leaving no stone unturned.

Just like Jesus went to find the lost sheep.
Sometimes they want to be found...sometimes they don't.
But I agree that we should go look:

James 5:20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

THEREFORE THEN, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who have borne testimony to the Truth], let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance (unnecessary weight) and that sin which so readily (deftly and cleverly) clings to and entangles us, and let us run with patient endurance and steady and active persistence the appointed course of the race that is set before us,
2 Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 Just think of Him Who endured from sinners such grievous opposition and bitter hostility against Himself [reckon up and consider it all in comparison with your trials], so that you may not grow weary or exhausted, losing heart and relaxing and fainting in your minds.

4 You have not yet struggled and fought agonizingly against sin, nor have you yet resisted and withstood to the point of pouring out your [own] blood.

5 And have you [completely] forgotten the divine word of appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as sons? My son, do not think lightly or scorn to submit to the correction and discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage and give up and faint when you are reproved or corrected by Him;
6 For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes.

7 You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline?

8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].
9 Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live?

10 For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness.
11 For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness—in conformity to God’s will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God].

12 So then, brace up and reinvigorate and set right your slackened and weakened and drooping hands and strengthen your feeble and palsied and tottering knees,
13 And cut through and make firm and plain and smooth, straight paths for your feet [yes, make them safe and upright and happy paths that go in the right direction], so that the lame and halting [limbs] may not be put out of joint, but rather may be cured.

14 Strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.
15 Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look [after one another], to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God’s grace (His unmerited favor and spiritual blessing), in order that no root of resentment (rancor, bitterness, or hatred) shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it—
16 That no one may become guilty of sexual vice, or become a profane (godless and sacrilegious) person as Esau did, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

17 For you understand that later on, when he wanted [to regain title to] his inheritance of the blessing, he was rejected (disqualified and set aside), for he could find no opportunity to repair by repentance [what he had done, no chance to recall the choice he had made], although he sought for it carefully with [bitter] tears.

18 For you have not come [as did the Israelites in the wilderness] to a [material] mountain that can be touched, [a mountain] that is ablaze with fire, and to gloom and darkness and a raging storm,
19 And to the blast of a trumpet and a voice whose words make the listeners beg that nothing more be said to them.

20 For they could not bear the command that was given: If even a wild animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned to death.
21 In fact, so awful and terrifying was the [phenomenal] sight that Moses said, I am terrified (aghast and trembling with fear).
22 But rather, you have come to Mount Zion, even to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless multitudes of angels in festal gathering,

23 And to the church (assembly) of the Firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to the God Who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect,
24 And to Jesus, the Mediator (Go-between, Agent) of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].

25 So see to it that you do not reject Him or refuse to listen to and heed Him Who is speaking [to you now]. For if they [the Israelites] did not escape when they refused to listen and heed Him Who warned and divinely instructed them [here] on earth [revealing with heavenly warnings His will], how much less shall we escape if we reject and turn our backs on Him Who cautions and admonishes [us] from heaven?

26 Then [at Mount Sinai] His voice shook the earth, but now He has given a promise: Yet once more I will shake and make tremble not only the earth but also the [starry] heavens.

27 Now this expression, Yet once more, indicates the final removal and transformation of all [that can be] shaken—that is, of that which has been created—in order that what cannot be shaken may remain and continue.

28 Let us therefore, receiving a kingdom that is firm and stable and cannot be shaken, offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship, with modesty and pious care and godly fear and awe;
29 For our God [is indeed] a consuming fire.
Heb 12:1–29.

Too much to reply to.
I agree with your last paragraph.
As to the SHAKEN part....
If we prepare for the calamities of life...we may be able, with the help of God, to overcome them
and hold on to our faith.


Or we could fall away as Jesus said in
Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[MTMattie]

Here’s my question again, based on the law of Moses.


Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Do you and your congregation obey this commandment to put to death people who do any work on the Sabbath?

My 2 cents.

No. But of course that might mean like God told Adam and Eve they would die ... and they did not physically die right then.

But unless you are SDA and maybe some other group it is not emphasized in the church so much.

If you are SDA the answer would be yes because they also feel if you don't worship on Sat that is a nono.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is a story that is true.

For a time my friend lost her faith.

First, she had been married to a wife beater.... and because of that she had multiple miscarriages when she was married.

She divorced him, and I know that is not an acceptable reason to God.... ( Cannot believe he approves?)

Anyway she remarried after sometime and she got pregnant. After, I forget how many miscarriages from the beatings etc... 4 or 5 min... she was elated and came the day for the child to be born.

Because, according to the docs, of all the beatings her uterus collapsed and the daughter was born with both
Spina Bifida AND Cerebral Palsy.

This one did loose her faith for a long while before she got it back.

As to the child... she is now about 45 years old and lives in a Shriners Home in Erie PA. She has been there 40 some years, not able to talk, and only in a wheel chair. Mental ability is that of a 5 or 6 year old.

The mom died shortly after Covid came on the scene...

So sad.
Many stories like this.
See my posts no. 1578 and 1583.
We were writing at practically the same time...

 

[Manasseh]

Just like Jesus went to find the lost sheep.
Sometimes they want to be found...sometimes they don't.
But I agree that we should go look:

James 5:20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Too much to reply to.
I agree with your last paragraph.
As to the SHAKEN part....
If we prepare for the calamities of life...we may be able, with the help of God, to overcome them
and hold on to our faith.


Or we could fall away as Jesus said in
Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

They were not "sanctified" that means to be set apart for a holy purpose or made holy. It refers to the process by which God transforms believers, enabling them to live according to His will and moral standards.

They were more like this:
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! James 2:19

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here is a story that is true.

For a time my friend lost her faith.

First, she had been married to a wife beater.... and because of that she had multiple miscarriages when she was married.

She divorced him, and I know that is not an acceptable reason to God.... ( Cannot believe he approves?)

Anyway she remarried after sometime and she got pregnant. After, I forget how many miscarriages from the beatings etc... 4 or 5 min... she was elated and came the day for the child to be born.

Because, according to the docs, of all the beatings her uterus collapsed and the daughter was born with both
Spina Bifida AND Cerebral Palsy.

This one did loose her faith for a long while before she got it back.

As to the child... she is now about 45 years old and lives in a Shriners Home in Erie PA. She has been there 40 some years, not able to talk, and only in a wheel chair. Mental ability is that of a 5 or 6 year old.

The mom died shortly after Covid came on the scene...

Did she lose her salvation

Or was she a prodigal child?

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you ever read about Charles Templeton

There was a time when Charles Templeton was one of the most popular sectarian evangelists in the nation. He was a bosom buddy of Billy Graham. They were, at times, preaching team-mates.

In 1996, Charles Templeton published his book, the title of which expresses the sentiment just stated. Farewell to God — My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith sets forth the rationale the former evangelist believed invalidates the credibility of the Bible in general and Christianity in particular.

But did he stay in that mindset or Dis Jesus go get that one lost lamb? I think He did.

In doing research for The Case For Faith, Strobel sought out and was granted an interview with Templeton in his penthouse apartment on the twenty-fifth floor of a high rise in Toronto, Canada.

Here is the part I like.

Then, Strobel directed the old gentleman’s attention to Christ. How would he now assess Jesus at this stage of his life?

Strobel says that, amazingly, Templeton’s “body language softened.” His voice took on a “melancholy and reflective tone.” And then, incredibly, he said:


Mind you, he’s talking about the same Teacher who claimed to have existed eternally before Abraham was born (Jn. 8:58), who asserted his oneness of nature with God, the Father (Jn. 10:30), and who allowed men to honor him as “Lord and God” (Jn. 20:28).

If these things were not true, that would make Jesus of Nazareth the most preposterous and outrageous con-man who ever walked the earth. Thousands happily went to their deaths, in the most horrible ways imaginable, confessing his deity.

But the interview continued.

Strobel quietly commented: “You sound like you really care about him.”

“Well, yes,” Templeton acknowledged, “he’s the most important thing in my life.”

He stammered: “I . . . I . . . I adore him . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus.”

Strobel was stunned. He listened in shock. He says that Templeton’s voice began to crack. He then said, “I . . . miss . . . him!”

With that, the old man burst into tears. With a shaking frame, he wept bitterly.

Finally, Templeton gained control of his emotions and wiped away the tears.

“Enough of that,” he said, as he waved his hand as if to suggest that there would be no more questions along that line.

Sad, sad indeed!

A Skeptic Reflects upon Jesus Christ

This article discusses author Lee Stroble's interview with skeptic, Charles Templeton.

christiancourier.com

Having tasted of the glory and goodness of God....
even if one strays away....
unless he's with no emotion at all...
will always miss what he had.

A person might wish to remove someone from their life....
but they will always becry what could have been.

Very nice post.

And who are we to know if Templeton was finally saved or not?
We cannot not know...but I trust in God's mercy.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Just like Jesus went to find the lost sheep.
Sometimes they want to be found...sometimes they don't.

Where do you get this?

I read his sheep hear his voice and they follow him

Remember, sheep are pretty stupid animals. Its probably why God relates us to them.

 

[GodsGrace]

They were not "sanctified" that means to be set apart for a holy purpose or made holy. It refers to the process by which God transforms believers, enabling them to live according to His will and moral standards.

They were more like this:
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! James 2:19

No Mahasseh....
JESUS said they believed for A WHILE...
and then FELL AWAY.

Some like to change the meaning of Jesus' words.
I don't believe we should do that.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

My 2 cents.

No. But of course that might mean like God told Adam and Eve they would die ... and they did not physically die right then.

Right, but they did die. Spiritually

At that point, they needed to be born again to have their relationship restored. God showed them how

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No Mahasseh....
JESUS said they believed for A WHILE...
and then FELL AWAY.

Some like to change the meaning of Jesus' words.
I don't believe we should do that.

Yes,

They believed, THEY DID NOT HAVE FAITH

Many people believe, but have yet to repent or come to saving faith and call out.

They did not produce fruit. Because they were never saved

 

[GodsGrace]

Where do you get this?

I read his sheep hear his voice and they follow him

Remember, sheep are pretty stupid animals. Its probably why God relates us to them.

I agree.
Sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

But sometimes they stray.
And are in real danger, even of death.
Most times a shepherd will find them.
Sometimes he doesn't or it's too late.

Jesus used metaphors for a reason.
Those people were shepherds, they understood Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes,

They believed, THEY DID NOT HAVE FAITH

Many people believe, but have yet to repent or come to saving faith and call out.

They did not produce fruit. Because they were never saved

If a person BELIEVES, he is saved.
Or we corrupt the meaning of the biblical word BELIEVE and it looses all its meaning.

And as to saving faith...
someone else on this Forum mentioned this....

There is only faith.
Faith saves.

No such thing as saving faith.
It's redundant.

If I have FAITH,,,I'm saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right, but they did die. Spiritually

At that point, they needed to be born again to have their relationship restored. God showed them how

I agree and believe they did.
Genesis 4:1
1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD."

 

[MTMattie]

Did she lose her salvation

Or was she a prodigal child?

I do not know. Could be either. I hope she is alright now, but is not for me to say.

I can only understand why one would draw away for a while. She would have had zero encouragement from her Mother, and I doubt from her husband who seems kind of clueless , and with us she never talked much along the "religious/spiritual" lines except to talk of when she had gotten very mad at God.

Shoot... I have often complained about my life but she made mine look like I was living as Mary Poppins...

 

[Manasseh]

No Mahasseh....
JESUS said they believed for A WHILE...
and then FELL AWAY.

Some like to change the meaning of Jesus' words.
I don't believe we should do that.

Believed for a while... like saved for a while, no that's changing the meaning. or not this kind of believing "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! James 2:19" that's changing the meaning.

Here one you may like.
Luke 8:13 states, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
This verse is part of the parable of the sower, where Jesus illustrates different responses to the word of God. The seed that falls on rocky ground represents those who initially receive the message with enthusiasm but lack the depth of faith to withstand challenges. When faced with trials or temptations, they quickly abandon their beliefs due to their shallow roots.

In essence, this verse highlights the importance of having a strong foundation in faith to endure life's difficulties.

So they believe but didn't have faith.

But wait there's more. The best one for last.

Jesus is explaining the meaning of the parable of the sower. Some of the seed spread lands on rocky ground—a thin layer of soil covering sold bedrock (Luke 8:6). The seed germinates quickly, but when the hot sun comes out, the plant doesn't have deep enough roots to find sufficient water and the plant dies.

Jesus has explained that the "seed" is the Word of God (Luke 8:11). The thin layer of soil is like a shallow person. They like the good news that Jesus teaches, but they do not take the psalmist's instruction and meditate on the meaning. They are not like a tree planted by streams of water that can withstand hardship. When the world tests their faith and their devotion to God, they become like chaff that dries up and blows away in the wind (Psalm 1:2–4).

The parable of the sower is often used to identify what it takes to be saved or what identifies someone who is saved. Does "fall away" mean these people were saved but lost their salvation? That interpretation contradicts Ephesians 1:13–14. Does it refer to apostates who fully understood the way to salvation and rejected it, and now cannot be saved? That's an extreme view considering how many religious leaders rejected Jesus during His ministry but later joined the church (Acts 6:7).

It's important to understand what the text does not say because laying out the mechanics of salvation is not the point. The point is that we are responsible for listening to Jesus' words and acting on what we understand. If we do so, we will bear fruit (Luke 8:15).

Even so, Peter may be an example of this type of believer. He quickly claimed to have great faith in Jesus. Then he faced his first trial. Standing around the fire, surrounded by the guards and servants who had arrested Jesus, he found himself questioned by a relative of the man whose ear he had just sliced off (John 18:10, 26). The only way to distance himself from the act was to deny he knew Jesus at all (John 18:27). Peter's faith did not stay weak, however. Before long, he praised God that he was worthy to be whipped for the sake of his Lord (Acts 5:41), and tradition states he was crucified upside-down for his faith. BibleRef.

 

[JLB]

My 2 cents.

No. But of course that might mean like God told Adam and Eve they would die ... and they did not physically die right then.

But unless you are SDA and maybe some other group it is not emphasized in the church so much.

If you are SDA the answer would be yes because they also feel if you don't worship on Sat that is a nono.

My point is the law of Moses required physical death for those who even gathered sticks on the Sabbath.

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36


This of course was abolished because the law of Moses has been abolished.


The Sabbath like many other things done in the Old Testament were shadows of things to come, and were a tutor to point the children of Israel to Christ.

Now that the Messiah has come the substance that created the shadow, we no longer need the tutor.


The Passover lamb was one such “type” of Christ.


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17


The weekly Sabbath foreshadowed the rest to come in the millennial reign of Christ.


This thousand years will be the 7th prophetic day; the 7000th from Adam.

 

[JLB]

They were not "sanctified" that means to be set apart for a holy purpose or made holy. It refers to the process by which God transforms believers, enabling them to live according to His will and moral standards.

They were more like this:
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! James 2:19

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Are you saying “my sheep” refers to someone “not sanctified”, someone who doesn’t really “believe”?

 

[Cyrus]

Yes,

They believed, THEY DID NOT HAVE FAITH

Many people believe, but have yet to repent or come to saving faith and call out.

They did not produce fruit. Because they were never saved

They believed He was a good teacher. They didn't have saving faith. They also had no trust.

And lets not forget what Jesus said.

21.“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23. And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23