Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let's make this as simple as possible.

(Jas 2:14) My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

(Jas 2:14) Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου, ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν, ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ; μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;

Can the Faith by itself save him? Can the One Singular Faith by itself save him? No.

You just screwed up

You added the words "byt itself"

that is not in the text. nor is it insinuated.

That clearly shows that the One Faith by itself cannot save.

No it does not. unless you are trying to force works in the equation and cause James and Paul to be at odds.

Why? Because there are no good works.

Because there was no faith, it was words. they said they had faith. but there was non. that is the point of what James is trying to get them to see. You claim you have faith, But do you?

Those who wish to disregard the Greek can do so as they wish.

CC: @Johann @mailmandan @civic

well your disregarding the greek.

so I would step back a little and look inside before in pride you start accusing others of what you yourself are doing

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The defense from OSAS people I've heard is usually this is justified before men not before God.

This one defense is particularly poor for a number of reasons, and completely out of the context of the passage.

Seeking to be justified before men is strictly condemned by Christ himself, and none of us should seek that.

Also, the context is not being justified before men at all, but faith that saves and being accounted righteous as God's friend.

We can clearly see that Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac to be justified before men, no one was even around at the time.

James is not telling you to be justified before men

He is telling you to prove your faith

You claim you have faith. You say your part of the church

1. yet your a hearer and not a doer

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

2. They did not Bridle their tongue, they faked religion deceiving their heart and themselves

26 f anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.

3. they showed partiality and are judges with evil thoughts

2: 1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.

4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

that is what these people continually did. that's why James called them out, in every one of the point. He told them do this, and ask them, do you do this, or should you not do that.

Nothing different in vs 14 on.. Do you say this and do you not have this.. well maybe you should change..

everyone seems to be stuf on OSAS derangement syndrome. lets get off OSAS. Who cares. it is just a term.

lets speak eternal security.

James did not contradict paul. If you want them apposed to each other because you hate OSAS. you have serious problems

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Exactly! I even told them to put their money where their mouth is by justifying themselves before us. They run away as quickly as they can. Talk about hypocrisy. That takes the cake.

lol

typical response from someone who can not stand to discuss the word. and can not even have any type of discussion without attacking his opponent.

No one ran away from you. read the posts the last three days numerous people have discussed this..

your pride is deep. You need to see someone about that. I recommend God. he resists the proud.. He will bring you back down if you let him

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

All I’m trying to do is encourage you-not discourage you-from studying Koine Greek and making use of the excellent scholarship that’s readily accessible online.

But when you suggest that Robertson is somehow casting doubt on this verse, it leaves me wondering what the point of continuing this conversation would be.

Not everyone approaches the text this way, but I would say the majority of serious students are committed to rightly dividing the word of truth.

I’m genuinely here to help you, brother...but not if the discussion is met with mocking or smiling emojis. We’re all adults here and, I believe, past that kind of behavior...wouldn’t you agree?

J.

people look for things which support them.

sadly. not only can I pick verses out of the word to support any belief.

I can pick commentaries and lexicons to also.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I just scanned the last 5 pages and didn't see any emojis there. I think we've been pretty civil in our recent discussions.

As for Robertson, anyone who doesn't respect Greek definite articles, I will call him out. It's clear that the Greek word ἡ translates to "the" and not "that". Even first year Greek Language students know that.

Anyways, I appreciate your input. Keep it coming.

this has been explained to you so many times I have lost count.

when people are stuck on a point and unable to see outside of that point. then they usually are lost in that point. and it loses its flavor.

the faith points back to the claimed or faith they said they had.

Not the faith that saves.

But again, I assume since you are fighting this so hard. You believe a person can claim they have faith. Never do a thing for God. live in sin, live in the world. and they are saved.

I have no other way to interpret anything you say concerning james.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (Jas. 2:17 NKJ)

James would be redundant and tautological to say here "dead faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Put that in DeepSeek and see what it says.

of course your right, it does not make sence

But james is not talking about faith here

is talking to a group of people who SAY they have faith (ie a claimed faith) but have no works.

And in verse 17, he gives us the answer. that claimed faith is a dead faith. can that faith save?

No

now unless, like I asked your brother, you believe a person can have faith (dead faith) and never do a good deed. live like the world. be hearers and not doers. all the things James accused them off. and be saved. which if you do. you need to rethink your doctrine. because you have been preaching against that from what I remember (like we have and do)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thanks for understanding...
It's good to do good works for God !

I Know this is to MMD, but I must ask. why do you do this? you have done this to me.

This response has no bearing on what he said..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Correct.
Many versions have the word THE instead of THAT.

Some versions have NO word at all.
CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?
(James 2:14)

it does not matter

the literal interpretation is "the faith"

what does "the faith" point to?

saving faith?

or the faith that the people said they had.

Using saving faith as "the faith is nonsensical. Because saving faith saves everyone, it would not be a question.

Using the faith the people claimed they had, makes total sense. Because James later said that faith was dead.

can a dead faith save? No

 

[Dizerner]

because you hate OSAS. you have serious problems

I'm sorry brother, but if eternal security actually IS false, it is a VERY big deal.

You should consider that more seriously.

If it is true—and we are all heeding warnings and exhorting sobriety in vain, because we're all safe anyway—big deal?

Oh we put a bit more effort into our walk, an inconsequential cost.

If it is false—people may spend all eternity in hell for believing this deadly and Satanic lie.

I don't know where this bug bit you—but you definitely need to take it more seriously than you are.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Beg your pardon? I believe Robertson is spot on and why should I go to "DeepSeek?"

1) If one should say that he has faith, but do no good works or produce no fruit to confirm it, would "that kind" of faith, unworking faith, be the kind of faith that saves? Eph_2:8-10. The answer is "no" and that true faith will manifest itself in some type of good work. The good work does not save, but genuine faith in Jesus Christ does initiate desires for and sustain one in deeds of fruitful service to Jesus Christ.

2) The original language indicates a sense of almost disgust on James' part. It is ironic for one to say or keep on saying, or persistently say, that he has faith and is saved if he has no works. His claims demonstrate that his faith is spurious if the claims are not accompanied by some fruit. That kind of faith which talks loudly, but works not at all, appears to be a farcical faith or claim of a kind of faith which the claimant does not possess, Joh_15:14.

Are you consulting DeepSeek for doctrine @Dizerner? Since I have no clue what you are talking about--is it a Bible software?

J.

I think it all comes down to their hate for Calvinism.

Since OSAS is deemed a calvinist term. they can not give it any leeway that it may even possibly be true.

Maybe we need to find another term.. or just use a simple phrase. what is aour security in

Christ (eternal security)
or self (our good works ) temporal or conditional security)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Keep focused on the Greek.

(James 2:14) Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου, ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν, ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ; μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;

It's clear that the Greek word ἡ translates to "the" and not "that". Even first year Greek Language students know that.

The Greek word for feminine "that" is αυτή - nowhere found in the Greek verse.

Therefore, ἡ πίστις translates to "the Faith".

Even first year Greek Language students understand this.

the faith refers back to the faith the people continued to say they had

even 5th graders can understand this.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'd say that James 2:17 clears up any misunderstanding...
but why make it easy?

James 2:17
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

FAITH....if it has NO WORKS ( James does not specify what type of faith)
IS DEAD,,,,BEING BY ITSELF.

I understand this to mean that faith alone would be BY ITSELF.
IOW....faith must be accompanied by something,,,in this case...good works.
Like feeding the hungry or clothing the nakes, instead of just wishing them peace.

correct

so "the faith" James asked all the way back in vs 14 is seen to be "dead faith"

why? Because there were no works that followed it

its so easy to understand, I am dumbfounded why people make it so difficult.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

When God speaks to us, move upon us or inspires we then receive faith (and grace; the ability to do what we hear).

It’s up to us to either obey what we hear or not.


If we choose to resist the Holy Spirit because of stubbornness, then we will not receive the benefit God intended for us to have.

correct

so if you are given the ability to serve a sister.

and chose not to do it

you will not get the benefit by being blessed because you gave.

 

[JLB]

correct

so if you are given the ability to serve a sister.

and chose not to do it

you will not get the benefit by being blessed because you gave.

Yes the key word is serve.

When God inspires someone to do something they must choose to obey and act or not act on what He said to do.

That’s the principle of faith. Faith must have the corresponding “work” of obedience or faith remains inactive and therefore unable to produce the intended divine result.

 

[JLB]

is talking to a group of people who SAY they have faith (ie a claimed faith) but have no works.

And in verse 17, he gives us the answer. that claimed faith is a dead faith. can that faith save?

Your adding your own words to the scripture.

There is only one faith. The faith we receive from God when He speaks to us to do something.

The faith we have from God is either alive, (activated) or (dormant) and dead, (inactive.)


What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:14-17


People can indeed have faith from God, and never act on it and thereby it remains dead.


No such thing as claimed faith. Either God spoke to you and you have faith from Him or He didn’t speak to you and you don’t have faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not too happy to do this.
But HIS was very long and I really felt I needed to reply to everything.
Takes too much time...but it's worth it.
There's too much explaining away the words of Jesus by some...

or could it be to much misunderstanding of the words of Jesus from others?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes. There too it is ἡ πίστις (the Faith). James is amazingly consistent. We just need to keep his message free from those who wish to water it down to fit their presuppositions.

Jas 2:17 οὕτω καὶ ἡ πίστις, ἐὰν μὴ ἔργα ἔχῃ νεκρά ἐστι καθ᾿ ἑαυτήν.

except in your translation

I agree. James is consistent

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

1. what does it profit. what does it gain. what good is it.

2. If a person says they have faith (article missing) ie, James is saying they are claiming they just have a faith.

3. But they do not have works (the very people he just address from the end of chapter 1 until verse 14)

4. Can "the" faith save him - The faith refers back to the faith the people claimed that they had.
continuing, he continues to discuss the faith that has no works he just adressed. stating it is dead

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
but he does not stop here. he ends with the same notion. if we say we have faith but have no works. our faith is dead...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


it flows together perfectly

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'm not appealing to authority....but my Italian bibles, which are the closest we'll get to Greek...say the following:

James 2:14
Either
THE FAITH
or
FAITH

Not
THAT FAITH.

it does not matter

Why are you all focused on one word?

the faith refers to the faith that the people said they had. it canm not in any circumstance represent any other faith. unless we change the meaning of the passage.

so some people inserted the word that for the. it does not change the meaning of what James said

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes. Just like you can say the Sun or Sun, the same way you can say the Faith or Faith. The NKJV is good on that.

it still does not change what James said.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11


Here is the snapshot of that Day.

• Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46

and this helps you?

Paul said people who are saved do works
James said people who do not have works are not saved.
John said a child born of God can not live in sin, whoever lives in sin has never seen God

so by these definitions. the people spoken of here ARE NOT GODS CHILDREN.

I am dumbfounded by the refusal of people to Give God credit for the ability to change people to make them more like him.