Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

You put 2 negatives into one sentence. Let me sort this out.
Is this your question?:
Would you say that a living faith and a dead faith are the same faith?
Yes, they're the same faith but in 2 states (state 1: alive, state 2: dead).

and hear-in lies the problem

when you think a real faith and a faith that is not real are the same

then you can not understand what true faith is.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Seems very easy, doesn't it?
To some it is not...and Jesus' words being ignored is the worst part of it all.

Even the words of Jesus are twisted to represent what a member might believe.

who is ignoring Jesus words.

I keep hearing you accuse people of this. who is doing it. can you name them?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here's an example:
It's like one cat. That cat can be either alive or dead. It's the same cat.

can the dead cat do anything?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There's only one faith for us D....the Christian faith.
It can be accepted or not...
If accepted it's alive.
If denied it's of no use and is dead.

yes amen for children of God there is one faith

but there is not only one faith

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have discovered over the years that people who have a genuine relationship with the Lord, tend to emphasize His words, and are not afraid of the true; they love the truth.

Oh I agree

I have also discovered that people who want to live in their belief system will see words that are not there. and pick and chose what words are real. and what are not.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is only faith.

Faith comes from God. There is no other faith.

It’s either dead or alive.


Is a person who is dead a different species from a person who is alive.

again not true

there is faith in God
there is faith there is a God
there is faith in religion
there is faith in works
there is faith in self

there is not only one faith. James spoke of a lifeless dead faith and asked if that dead faith can save.

the answer is not. Because it is not faith in the living God who died for their sins.

its faith in self, I can say a sinners prayer and I am saved, and I can live however I want

that is the faith James is fighting. and trying to reverse.

I am amazed legalists are fighting for a licentious faith that saves

 

[Studyman]

The overall teaching is focused on what actually does defile us.
Food is clearly not the thing that defiles us.

I agree 100%. It wasn't the forbidden fruit that defiled Adam and Eve, it was the disrespect for God, the dishonor towards God, the disobedience to God, the indifference towards God that comes from within, from the heart of man, that defiles a man. Clearly this is the overarching teaching from the "Word of God" which became flesh.

It is written in scriptures, Jesus referenced it in Matt. 5:

Prov. 6: 24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. 25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.

It isn't the woman from without that defiles the man, it is the lust to have what God has told us to "Abstain" from, that comes from within, from the heart of man, that defiles a man.

Certainly this truth is understood in this phrase in case the reader didn’t understand Jesus’s point.

because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”

Yes, there is no disrespect for God, no dishonor towards God, no disobedience to God, no indifference towards God, to eat bread with unwashed hands. As Jesus said.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat (Food) with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, it's just an undeniable truth that it is a worldly tradition, according to the course of this world, depending on which country you are in, to disrespect, dishonor and reject God's definition of "Food" and His definition of "Not Food". Just as it is the tradition of the "course of this world" to reject God's Definition of "Holy".

I did the same "in time past when I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

In Taipei, it is a tradition to drink shots of raw snake blood. In Italy it is a delicacy to serve a certain cheese with live maggots. In China, chickens are hung by the neck until dead and then eaten. In America they eat swine's flesh and snails. All these traditions are a complete rejection of God's instruction in Righteousness. God has already judged such behavior as "Unholy". And it seems to me, and this is only "MY" Take here, but it seems to me God should know what is Holy and what is Not.

The children of the devil, in Jesus Time, that is, those who "walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience", were trying to force their religious traditions onto the disciples. Namely, that bread, a perfectly holy and clean "food", defiled someone who didn't engage in the Pharisees traditions before eating it. Jesus pointed out the foolishness of such a tradition

You are promoting the popular religious philosophy of this world's religious system, that Jesus is advocating that men are now free to create their own judgments concerning "What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Not only does Jesus NOT promote such things in Matt. 15 and Mark 7, but HE told me God knows I have need to know these things, and HE directed me where to go to find out.

Matt. 6: 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth "that ye have need of all these things". 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; "and all these things" shall be added unto you.

And when a man, any man seeks, that which Jesus said to seek, they find a complete, detailed description of what to eat, what to drink, and what to be covered with. You and I have both found God's judgment in this matter.

We look at these Scriptures differently JLB. "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, "use" them as justification for their traditions that transgress God's Commandments.

I look at these Scriptures for guidance, to understand the God that Jesus wants me to know. There is no way, given what is written in scriptures, that Jesus, in Mark 7 or Matt. 15, is advocating that men are to reject God's Law. It's absurd actually, to imply that the reason Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, is so that men may keep their tradition of drinking blood, or eating things strangled, or eating swine's flesh or maggots or any beasts that God told to His People to "Abstain from".

Again, it's not about you, I mean no offence to you at all, it's about Jesus, and what Jesus actually taught.

And there is no way Jesus is directing His people to reject, dishonor or disrespect God's instruction in Righteousness, after telling men to "SEEK" God's Righteousness.

And yet, this is what this world's religious system, that you have adopted, is promoting. Does it matter if men drink blood or eat maggots or swine's flesh or things strangled? "Let each man be convinced in his own mind".

The only reason for this reply is that I know Jesus isn't advocating for men to disobey even the Least of God's commandments in Matt. 15 and Mark 7. And I want to warn others to "Beware" of men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who claim that HE was.

 

[GodsGrace]

"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name [name drop], cast out demons in Your name[name drop], and done many wonders in Your name[name drop]?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Jesus is VERY clear here. They claimed to know Him because of the three name drops above. Did we not prophesy in Your name? Jesus answer...um...NO. Did we not cast out demons in Your name? Jesus answer... um...NO. Did we not do many wonders in Your name? Jesus answer... um...NO. Jesus is telling them that it wasn't in His name because... HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Not only that, He calls them sinners. (Those who practice lawlessness.) If you follow the Law, you do not sin. If you do not follow the Law, you sin. (Miss the standard, which is the law.) If you practice lawlessness, you are a slave of sin still, and were never saved, hence Jesus says, I never knew you. Not one time they did ANYTHING in His name, did Jesus know them. NEVER. So while they come out claiming to know Him because of what they did, He turns around and tells them "I never knew you". I don't know if it is possible for Jesus to be more clear. He told them to depart because He never knew them, and they were sinners, those who practice (live for only) lawlessness/sin.

I'm sorry army.
There's a miscommunication here.
You are properly representing Jesus in your above statements as to what He said in Matthew 7:21

What I was referring to, instead, are the following comments that you made in the said post:

"HE NEVER HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM"
"HE NEVER FELLOWSHIPPED WITH THEM"
"THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH"
"IT ISN'T WHO YOU CLAIM TO KNOW...IT'S WHO KNOWS YOU"
The above comments were never made by Jesus.
You are adding to scripture by interjecting your own belief system.

Jesus never spoke about having a "personal relationship" with Him.
He spoke about being saved when speaking to Nicodemus and I really can't remember another time.

I was referring to these comments. I agree with what you just posted now.

And as you correctly posted,,,Jesus said DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.
He gave the reason why He did not know them.
Matthew 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

That is all it is saying. Jesus never knew them. Depart because you do not know Jesus because you are sinners/those who practice lawlessness. The reason Jesus never knew them is because they never ceased being those who practice lawlessness.

Agreed.

So now it is salvation by works. Got it. Support with scripture, not your opinions. (I can twist things too...)

Please explain what you mean by SALVATION BY WORKS.

What is Jesus point in the passage? Name dropping gets you nowhere. Anyone can say Lord, Lord, but not everyone means it. Not everyone has actually made Jesus Lord and followed Him. Instead, they continue in sin believing that they can name drop themselves into heaven. Boot lickers.

Agreed.
Have you made Jesus Lord?
What does this mean?

I tie it to works,,,but first I'd like to know what you mean by SALVATION BY WORKS
and
JESUS AS LORD.
Thanks.

It is harder then it sounds, but Lordship salvation, balanced with the parts John MacArthur didn't mention due to the purpose of him writing "The Gospel According to Jesus" in the first place, is the proper view. The gate is narrow. We can't take anything with us, including self. To come to Christ is to crucify self. No longer living to self, but living to Christ. The Lord, Lord is the cry of the one wholely surrendered. The situation Jesus presented is an insult to Him. Hence He is very explicit. You claim to know Him, and to have done all these things in His name as a sign of salvation, as a sign supporting "Lord, Lord"... well.. I never knew you. Get out you sinners. (you who practice lawlessness.)

Ok.
So you do believe in good works?

I think your issue is you have Hebrews stating that what you said is God putting His only Son to open shame and that God will not do it. When you have that, next to what you are saying, that means that you are not understanding something correctly.

You just met up with me army.
I wouldn't assume too many things if I were you.

You're putting words into my mouth and if this is how you post, our conversation won't last long.
Please refer to either
1. What I actually stated
2. Scripture

We are born dead, with a sin nature inherited from Adam. Our birth is the beginning of being one of the two prodigal sons. Either elect, who will return to God and be saved, or not elect. We are not born saved, we are born sinners, that is spiritually dead. This is how you must allow scripture as a whole to educate your understanding. This is a parable. It is not a literal truth/story, but holds a spiritual truth within, which you must allow to be molded by spiritual truth, such as Hebrews.

Army....let me make this clear:

1. I don't care for John MacArthur because I don't share his theology.

2. Jesus spoke in parables to TEACH SOMETHING that could be easily understood.
Because Jesus spoke in parables does not make His teaching any less important.
We are to learn from Jesus
NOT from John MacArthur.

There's not such group as ELECT...
In the NT and the OT,,, the ELECT are the Jews through whom God decided to reveal Himself.

At times it also means us,,,the saved,,,
but we're not saved because God chose who will be saved from the beginning of time.

If you want to discuss Hebrews...pick a verse and we'll discuss it.

Perhaps when you come to understand I John 1. The we is his audience. John is writing to believers, those he has taught. If believers confess their sins, God will forgive.

Yes. Maybe when I come to understand John, maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to have a real conversation with you.
In the meantime...post the scripture and stop assuming you know me.

For Hebrews 6:
"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 2:
"Therefore we must give [a]the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts[c] of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Hebrews 12:
"14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or [f]profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears."

That last one is to say that Esau sold his inheritance, his birthright, and when he wanted to inherit it, he was rejected because there was no place for repentance for him, though he sought for one diligently with tears. This speaks to how God treated Esau for selling the inheritance God gave him by Esau being first born. God rejected him. God would not forgive him. God would give him no place to repent of what he had done.

If you could lose your salvation, you can never get it back.

One verse in the NT makes it impossible to regain salvation once we lose it?

In YOUR theology, I guess it's OK since it's GOD that made the person lose their salvation in the first place.
Right?

For the rest of us...we depend on the very scripture you mentioned:
1 John chapters 1 and 2.

I have free will army.
I can fall into a life of sin...lose my salvation...and then REPENT AGAIN and get it back.
YOU yourself posted scripture to prove this.

God is a loving and merciful God and will accept us back ANY TIME...
Why?
Because God desires that all men be saved:

1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And, if you recall, Jesus went after the lost sheep to get him back into the fold:
Luke 15:4
4“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

God will reject you. However, Hebrews 6 speaks to those who have come face to face with the reality of the gospel as non-believers, and when it came to accepting, having received the truth, they rejected and walked away. If Jesus sacrifice is not enough for them, then there is no more sacrifice.

Agreed.

Hebrews 10
"26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

See 1 John 1 and 2.
See Luke 15:4
The bible cannot contradict itself.
So how would YOU reconcile Hebrews with John and Luke??

It is one thing to believe, it is another to have that penetrate the heart, lay our roots, and make the heart home. Jesus states they have no foundation, no roots. They are the ones who came to hear Jesus in John 6, listened, heard what he had to say, could not accept what He said, and left. What did Jesus say about salvation here?

If a person BELIEVES,,,it means what he heard has penetrated his heart.
Do you know what Believe means in the Koine Greek language that was used to write the NT?
It means to trust, to believe in, to have faith in, to follow, to learn from....
How does a person do the above UNLESS what he heard PENETRATES THE HEART?
Sounds like a new fandangled idea, as if we don't have enough already.

In Luke 8:13 JESUS SAID....Jesus said he BELIEVED FOR A WHILE....
easy enough to understand.

THEN HE FELL AWAY....
easy enough to understand.

WHAT did the person believe?
WHAT did he fall away from?

WHY must we not listen, hear, and understand what Jesus plainly taught?
WHY must we change what He taught?

Do we trust John MacArthur more than Jesus?

"43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Yet there was a crowd of people who came to Jesus. Jesus point is, they weren't drawn by the Father, so they did not come to Him to be saved. They had other motives. Their reaction to what He said proved this. In the end only the 12 stayed, but Jesus said that one was a devil. Not that one would become a devil, but was a devil. And, one finds that Judas ALWAYS had ulterior motives the whole time he was with Jesus. He was never, saved. He may have believed what Jesus said, but he was never... saved. He was solely there to betray Jesus, with God in ages past having cursed the day Judas was born.

God draws everyone army.
Some CHOOSE to come to God...to reply to His call...
some choose not to.

John 3:16 explains it perfectly:
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Too tired and just too many posts.
What can we say that is new??

Why does believing in obedience to God sound Catholic??

it does not

why do you keep twisting my words and my point to make it appear I am saying something I never said.

Did I post the Pew Reseach Study that states that 53% of PROTESTANT Christians believe that
good works are necessary?

They're necessary because the NT teaches that we will be judged by them.
They're necessary because Jesus meant to establish the Kingdom of God here...
No good works...no Kingdom.

I'm really aghast at why we debate this.
At least we're nice to each other and debate as Christians should.
Not everybody does...on any forum - not particulary meaning this one.

this is not a catholic protestant issue. i reject isms

This is a what does a person trust to get to heaven issue

One group trusts in Grace alone based on the work of the cross. a savior who died for us to free us from the penalty of sin, having taken what was against us contrary to us and nailed it to the cross. and because of this, out of gratitude and a changed heart. we start a journey of loving God and learning to love others. and producing fruit based on our good works. which we LOVE to do.

the other group says we get to heaven based on some form of works. How good we are vs how bad we are. how many religious sacraments or traditions we do. How much we grow in our faith proven by how many works we do. or how many less sins we commit. whatever works they say must be done to gain entrance to heave.

the 1st group is the narrow gate

the second group is the wide gate. because again, 99 percent of the worlds religions (including churches that call themselves churches of the living God call themselves Christian) teach this view of self righteousness.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Faith comes from God.

If the word by which we receive faith is acted up upon it’s activated and alive.

If the word by which we receive faith is not acted upon then the faith we received remains dormant, inactive, and therefore dead.

by this defenition. then it can not save

But I think like many your trying to make a religious word out of a word which means to trust or to have confidence in.

a person who does not have faith or confidence in the gospel. does not have faith in the gospel.

sadly. many people walk in our churches and claim to have this faith. when they do not..

for these people. we need to do what James did. and have them examine themselves. because their claimed faith is dead

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

They're not the same in the sense you're stating now.
A dead faith is different than a faith that is alive.

What we're saying is that there is ONLY ONE FAITH.
It is either alive or dead.

I think what you mean is, yes, there is only one faith...
but they LOOK different??

IF this is what you mean, then of course I think we'd all agree with you.

But, there is only ONE faith...for us it's the Christian faith.

a dead faith is not faith

faith means to trust, to have confidence in

if you do not have trust or confidence in something, you do not have faith. period


religion is a very bad thing. It sickens me how many are indebted to it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Faith comes from God.
What you do with it makes it alive or dead.

Same Faith from God.
Include it with good works that makes it alive.
No good works makes it dead.

No

the ability to trust comes from God

if you do not trust. yet say you do. your a liar and your claimed faith is dead.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Luke 6:46


At the end of the proverbial Day, our Lord is the one we obey.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

who does not do what the lord says.

who are hearers of the word and not doers

who did Jude say their condemnation was set in stone.

who did peter say were false teachers who were saying we can come to church yet live however we want, because there is no consequence.

who are these people. I see you and @GodsGrace and @synergy defending as saved people who are children of God?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I just want to be the 1,000th poster on this thread!!

missed by 1

 

[GodsGrace]

I Know this is to MMD, but I must ask. why do you do this? you have done this to me.

This response has no bearing on what he said..

Here's what MMD said EG:
"NO. You could never do enough good works to maintain your salvation."

I agree!
He made a correct statement.

We could never do enough good works to maintain our salvation.
This is right.

No matter how many good works we do,,,we could always do more.
Happily, God knows us and our limits and accepts us as we are,
as long as we're sincere.

I've posted many verses of Jesus teaching that He desires that we do good works...
AND WILL BE JUDGED BY THEM.

Ditto for Paul.

I have the hope that one day you will both come to accept this teaching of Jesus.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

JLB,,,,
do you have any idea how many times I've posted the above to @Eternally-Grateful ....
And also to another member here.

thousands

and do you know how many times eternally grateful told you he does not preache, does not support. or does not believe a child of God can live in sin, or not do what jesus says?

I find Jesus' words to be simple to understand.
They have to be because He spoke to simple persons that had to understand what He meant.
This is one of the reasons He used parables...
They could be adapted by the hearer to their personal situation (the message being the same of course),
and they were easier to remember and to relay to others...as we would use examples today.

they are simple if we let go of our biases

Eternally-Grateful does not do this...but the other member just twists everything Jesus said to suit his needs.
This is disconcerting, to say the least.

Now you are going to far sister. this is a false accusation. this is bearing false witness. You just accused me of saying we can say we have faith and never do anything God said. we can live in sin all we want. and it does not matter.

You are now a liar..How dare you continue to bear false witness against a brother. because you are totally unable to hear anything he says?

 

[Dizerner]

One group trusts in Grace alone

the other group says we get to heaven based on some form of works

If trusting God is not a work, then things we do that express that trust cannot be a work either.

Something is being defined as "works" and trust is being excluded as "works."

So anything based on trust must necessarily logically be excluded as "works."

There is a third position here you are excluding:

3. Trust cannot be passive mental assent but must include actions based on trust.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The problem with this is, "I never knew you" was a recorded Rabbinical formula of excommunication preserved for us in the Babylonian Talmud. The point of this idiom was to say, "Because of what you have done, it is now as if I never knew you," and not to be taken hyper literally in this case. I don't think this alone establishes whether these at one time did the will of God.

I think the fact That Jesus said they practiced unrighteousness. Taken with the words of Joh, that a chilk of God is unable to do this. and whoever does has never seen or known God. shows that this should be taken literally

these were religious people who tried to use their works. to have God allow them into heaven because of these works.

And jesus said depart..

there will be many a people who thought their were holy because of all their good works. who will be told this same thing

 

[mailmandan]

it does not

why do you keep twisting my words and my point to make it appear I am saying something I never said.



this is not a catholic protestant issue. i reject isms

This is a what does a person trust to get to heaven issue

One group trusts in Grace alone based on the work of the cross. a savior who died for us to free us from the penalty of sin, having taken what was against us contrary to us and nailed it to the cross. and because of this, out of gratitude and a changed heart. we start a journey of loving God and learning to love others. and producing fruit based on our good works. which we LOVE to do.

the other group says we get to heaven based on some form of works. How good we are vs how bad we are. how many religious sacraments or traditions we do. How much we grow in our faith proven by how many works we do. or how many less sins we commit. whatever works they say must be done to gain entrance to heave.

the 1st group is the narrow gate

the second group is the wide gate. because again, 99 percent of the worlds religions (including churches that call themselves churches of the living God call themselves Christian) teach this view of self righteousness.

Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. (John 1:12; 3:18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12; 13:38-39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4 ; 1 John 5:11-13 etc..).

It does not get any narrower than that.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And all 1’s

well you had 1 zero..lol