Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[civic]

I'm sure these persons exist because they may not understand how much God loves them.

However, for whatever reason they are obeying,,,,they are still obeying God and fulfilling what God expects from them.

I hope you're not saying that you question their salvation.

no repeatedly I have said that I don't question ones salvation. I know in the past I have done things for the wrong reasons in my christian walk.

 

[synergy]

Which definition of "justified" do YOU believe fits the context in James 2:14-26?

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

www.bibletools.org

Let's look at verse 14 which sets the stage for what follows:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

So we're talking about one's salvation. That's possible only through God, and more precisely only through the Cross. Only God can justify man. No amount of showmanship can do that so #2 is off the table. Man is rendered righteous through active belief in Christ and justified through preordained good works.

 

[synergy]

I think of judas in this passage. Do you think he was saved ?

Judas is a good example of Heb 6:4-6. I have no idea if he will ever be saved. I shudder to think what will become of him.

 

[GodsGrace]

A simple YES is too difficult for your loaded question. You believe that good works maintain salvation and that good works are the means by which we receive eternal life. I disagree with that so a simple YES will come across as if I do agree with you.

Are good works required to show our faith, glorify God and express our love for God and people? YES. Are good works required to obtain or maintain salvation? NO.

Good works are not required to maintain our salvation?
Then you believe in disobeying Jesus because Jesus said that our good works ARE our salvation.

The wise man: The wise man ACTS on the words of Christ.

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The foolish man: The foolish man DOES NOT ACT on the words of Christ.


Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
ON HIM THE SOLID ROCK I STAND
ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND

The Christian life is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (John 17:3) that is characterized by faith, hope, love and good works.

Unfortunately you don't teach good works.
Or obedience to God.

You make perseverance sound like an extremely difficult burden that most Christians will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow Christians to slip through His hands. You seem to have more faith in self preservation than you do in God's preservation.

Post some verses please.

Here's what I posted:

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
John states that when we love God
we obey His commandments....
and His commandments are NOT burdensome.
Could you post some verses that state God's commandments are burdensome to follow after we are born again?
If this is not what YOU are saying...then please stop putting words into my mouth.

Folks who do not properly count the cost and fall away were never truly committed to begin with.

Jesus does not agree with you.
How many times must I post the same scripture?
Don't you even believe what JESUS teaches?

Jesus taught THEY BELIEVED then FELL AWAY.

You're THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH is a false belief system NOT BASED on biblical teaching.

Luke 8:13 JESUS said they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE,,,,then FELL AWAY.
Luke 15:24 JESUS said the son became ALIVE AGAIN. AGAIN. He was alive, then lost, then alive AGAIN.
Matthew 5:13 You ARE the salt,,,but if the salt BECOMES TASTELESS....



Jesus EXPECTS us to follow His commandments:

Matthew 5:19
19 "Whoever * then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever * keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I lost multiple family members, my best friend from childhood and things got pretty rocky for me at first with my wife and father in law when I became a Christian but I did not walk away from Christ.

Good for you.
We each have our story.
YOUR story does not make Christian doctrine.
The bible does.

We do. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful.

So now you're weighing your fruit?

YES, rightly understand.

How many ways are there to understand Dan?

We either believe Jesus' teachings or we don't.
We either follow Him or we don't.
We teach what He taught or we don't.

Let's be like the wise man.

 

[mailmandan]

Let's look at verse 14 which sets the stage for what follows:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

So we're talking about one's salvation. That's possible only through God, and more precisely only through the Cross. Only God can justify man. No amount of showmanship can do that so #2 is off the table. Man is rendered righteous through active belief in Christ and justified through preordained good works.

Verse 14 certainly does set the stage and as I previously shared with you in post #605: In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

#2 is certainly not off the table. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

 

[GodsGrace]

what does it profit a person if they say state claim whatever word you want to use. They have faith

That is the context

A dead faith a claimed faith a non existent faith a non living faith a powerless faith

Faith works. It is not dead.

You of all people I would think believes this

When you say something is true you make a claim it is true

Again you should know this

Your right
Because they are not his children if they have claimed faith only

He does not expect it actually

What do you mean that Jesus does not expect it actually?
Jesus does not expect to be obeyed?

This is what I stated in post 662:
"God expects from those that HAVE FAITH."

And your reply is that actually Jesus does not expect??

Here's what Jesus said....in my above post to Dan...

Matthew 5:19
19 "Whoever * then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever * keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus is God. What He teaches He expects from us.
He expects obedience, which includes good works.

He knows they will do it. It is his job as a parent to teach lead and guide then and even chastem them when out of line again like any good parent

Again I would expect you to understand this

How does God know we will obey Him??
This sounds very calvinistic.

When we get saved we do NOT lose our free will.
If we persevere we will be saved...
If we fall away....we will once again become lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

@mailmandan @GodsGrace

Listen to the worm calling the snail slimy.

TYPICAL RB.

All you know how to do is insult.

On another Forum....you'd be thread-banned from every thread you tried to be on.

Very unchristian-like behavior from you...
AND CONSTANTLY.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is important to also point out that good works can be done for the wrong reasons, it is not good works in and of themselves that are righteous. They must be done in a spirit of grace and submission that all righteousness only comes through Christ's suffering on the Cross for our sins, and not be done self-righteously.

doing a good work in order to keep salvation. Not lose salvation. or make sure you stay right with God is not doing it in the spirit of grace. It is doing those deeds with a selfish motive. I am doing it to preserve self. Not because I am loving the person I am doing the good work for.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen and well said! In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God through previous promises may become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. Moral reform is not a substitute for regeneration.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

You're posts are all eisegesis.
It's quite unfortunate that the writers of the NT did not follow YOUR logic and instead wrote what THEY wanted to write.

The linquistic gymnastics necessary to squirm around very clear scripture....
are a sight to behold !

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is addressed to people in the church, which includes saved and unsaved. So it is not specifically addressed to Christians, but to all who are in the church body, saved and unsaved. And, what is Lordship OSAS. I believe in eternal security that is solely based in God. You see, if you believe it is God who gets to choose who He wants to spend eternity with, being the Creator and King of the universe, is there anything you can do to change that? Is your view of salvation bound in man, or in God? If salvation is of God and is found in God, isn't God the only one who can say no?

sadly

some are stuck in theology, or following this ism or that ism.

so everything they say or do is either to support their particular sin (calvinism, armenianism, catholicism etc etc) or to attack the ISM they are fighting against.

an example is an arminian who will not give heed to any of calvins 5 points of tulip. so at all costs he must attack it

One of these points is P or perseverance of the saints (Which I disagree 100 % on. a saint does not persevere. God keeps us) But since the term OSAS is tight to this point. they will attack OSAS or anything associated with it at all cost.

you witness this in here even as we speak sadly

 

[GodsGrace]

doing a good work in order to keep salvation. Not lose salvation. or make sure you stay right with God is not doing it in the spirit of grace. It is doing those deeds with a selfish motive. I am doing it to preserve self. Not because I am loving the person I am doing the good work for.

Doing a good work in order to keep salvation is good enough for me.

Because:
We're married....we have a spouse.
Don't we do good for that spouse because we love them and want to keep the marriage in tact?

What if we love the spouse exeedingly.....
but we don't do anything to contribute to their wishes and to the good of the marriage?

Is that a marriage?
Is it one that will endure?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A simple YES is too difficult for your loaded question. You believe that good works maintain salvation and that good works are the means by which we receive eternal life. I disagree with that so a simple YES will come across as if I do agree with you.

Are good works required to show our faith, glorify God and express our love for God and people? YES. Are good works required to obtain or maintain salvation? NO.

funny how we both responded to this simple yes the same way, amen 100%

The Christian life is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (John 17:3) that is characterized by faith, hope, love and good works.

You make perseverance sound like an extremely difficult burden that most Christians will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow Christians to slip through His hands. You seem to have more faith in self preservation than you do in God's preservation.

Folks who do not properly count the cost and fall away were never truly committed to begin with. I lost multiple family members, my best friend from childhood and things got pretty rocky for me at first with my wife and father in law when I became a Christian but I did not walk away from Christ.

We do. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful.

YES, rightly understand.

What happened to faith in God.

Will God grow us, or will he not?

I trust God will. because he promised to. as any good father would.

but when you are forced to trust self not God (legalism) you have no choice but to fight for good works. just like the pharisees did..

you have to. because you have to show you are meeting the standard. whatever standard that is

 

[GodsGrace]

sadly

some are stuck in theology, or following this ism or that ism.

so everything they say or do is either to support their particular sin (calvinism, armenianism, catholicism etc etc) or to attack the ISM they are fighting against.

an example is an arminian who will not give heed to any of calvins 5 points of tulip. so at all costs he must attack it

One of these points is P or perseverance of the saints (Which I disagree 100 % on. a saint does not persevere. God keeps us)

First...
Calvinism teaches exactly that God will make persevere that which HE has saved.

But since the term OSAS is tight to this point. they will attack OSAS or anything associated with it at all cost.

you witness this in here even as we speak sadly

And NO!
OSAS is wrong....apart from the P.....

although, we must say,,,that this idea DID NOT EXIST in the church prior to the reformation. (OSAS).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

More pointedly for the workplace, it commends putting capital at risk in pursuit of earning a return. Sometimes Christians speak as if growth, productivity, and return on investment were unholy to God. But this parable overturns that notion.

Interesting, I never heard anyone speak in this way., Other than that. I agree with what you said.

Amen, God gives us gift. we should use them, if we do God can grow those talents and we can do more.

if not he will take that talent and give it to someone else.

in the end.

God will reward us depending on what we do with the investment he made in us.. All of his children will receive in kind.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The warnings are specifically addressed to believers, this is clear.

Unbelievers have nothing to fall away from, they have no standing with God.

Lordship OSAS is just another term for Perseverance (or Preservation) of the Saints, the idea that you are secure but still must bear spiritual fruit that God will force all believers to produce, thus still requiring some standard of behavior (Lordship).

It still removes free will.

what is lordship OSAS.

never heard of it.

yes. free will. we all have free will

I of my free will chose to recieve Christ and all the promises he offered me,, Most importantly. he removed the curse of the law so I could spend an eternity with him.

 

[GodsGrace]

funny how we both responded to this simple yes the same way, amen 100%



What happened to faith in God.

Will God grow us, or will he not?

I trust God will. because he promised to. as any good father would.

but when you are forced to trust self not God (legalism) you have no choice but to fight for good works. just like the pharisees did..

you have to. because you have to show you are meeting the standard. whatever standard that is

Sorry EG...I keep falling on your posts when I REPLY.

I don't know a Christian that is relying on Himself.
Do you think I miss the verses that say ABIDE...
WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.....

I happen to read all of scripture...I don't dwell on just the passages I like.
All of scripture has to be harmonized or it won't make sense.

God will grow our faith....
The more grace we use,,,the more we get.

But we have to WANT Him to.
The fact that we WANT Him to in our personal relationship with Him...
does NOT deny the fact that the NT writers, including Jesus,,,warned to ABIDE IN HIM....
and to obey Him so that we could keep our relationship.

Teachings OSAS is a dangerous teaching...as I've stated always.
It teachers that salvation cannot be lost NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.

I now YOU are not saying this,,,,but it IS the end result.
It's teaching a lie...something that the NT does NOT teach.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

OSAS is a free meal ticket where one professes belief and lives like the devil. It’s having one’s cake and eating it too. It has nothing to do with the P in tulip.

No. this is not OSAS. And this may be where all of the infighting and anger on both sides comes from.

the one attacking this form of OSAS

and the one being accused of following this form of OSAS.

the fact is, some who profess OSAS may believe this (Jude calls it Licentiousness) . But most of us who believe in eternal security or once a person is saved, that salvation is forever (literally OSAS) . do not believe this.

James attacked this false licentious believe in James 2.

 

[GodsGrace]

no repeatedly I have said that I don't question ones salvation. I know in the past I have done things for the wrong reasons in my christian walk.

Haven't we all ?
We can only ask forgiveness when we realize it...
and just do the best we can.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you against perseverance of the saints?

J.

I am

we do not persevere. that would be works or self righteousness

God keeps us..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Calvinist argument.

Logically, eternal security means the removal of free will, whether you allow certain degrees of sin or not.

typical strawman

Eternal security means we are secure in Christ. not in self.

Free will is not removed. No one who UNDERSTOOD their curse, UNDERSTOOD the depth of their sin, Understood the rightous ANGER of a Holy God. and humbled themselves to the point they confess they are worthy of eternal hell. worthy of nothing. and call out for Jesus to save them (IE, they truly repented and came to true saving faith) would even even consider walking away and denying what they in their hearts truly believed and fell to. ie denying Christ.

All it pans out to is, now you have an unfalsifiable position with a free pass to say anyone who falls away "wasn't really ever saved anyway." And of course, that logically means no amount of visible fruit is an actual assurance or security, since at any point of time ever, you might find out you were just "never really saved to begin with."

Well that is what John says. And actually Peter says it also in 2 Peter 2. And Jude says it in his book.

it is mentioned in quite a few places..

It's just a mess.

yes. Depending on self. and Not God is a serious mess