civic
Active Member
OSAS is a free meal ticket where one professes belief and lives like the devil. It’s having one’s cake and eating it too. It has nothing to do with the P in tulip.
Excellent Discussion on OSAS
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Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
what does it profit a person if they say state claim whatever word you want to use. They have faith
That is the context
A dead faith a claimed faith a non existent faith a non living faith a powerless faith
Faith works. It is not dead.
You of all people I would think believes this
When you say something is true you make a claim it is true
Again you should know this
Your right
Because they are not his children if they have claimed faith only
He does not expect it actually
He knows they will do it. It is his job as a parent to teach lead and guide then and even chastem them when out of line again like any good parent
Again I would expect you to understand this
Johann
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Can a believer be secure in Christ ? Yes
Eternal life is unending life. It’s permanent not temporal or conditional.
Think if it this way when Jesus healed many people and declared your faith saved you. They went from being blind to having sight permanently, the same with the lame, the dead raised to life, the lepers etc…. Well the same with salvation it did not and does not reverse. The new life, birth is permanent. God who has begun a work on you will also complete that work. We see this chain outlined in Roman’s 8. No one and no thing can remove us from the love of Christ.
Dizerner
Active Member
Calvinist argument.
Logically, eternal security means the removal of free will, whether you allow certain degrees of sin or not.
All it pans out to is, now you have an unfalsifiable position with a free pass to say anyone who falls away "wasn't really ever saved anyway." And of course, that logically means no amount of visible fruit is an actual assurance or security, since at any point of time ever, you might find out you were just "never really saved to begin with."
It's just a mess.
civic
Active Member
Nope I believe in eternal security and free will. Strawman alert
Dizerner
Active Member
Uh, please read the Gospels again.
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." (Jn. 5:14 NKJ)
Dizerner
Active Member
Denying logic is not a "straw man."
It's like people think if they just say the magic words "straw man" it makes their argument logically consistent or something.
civic
Active Member
Yep go and sin no more
civic
Active Member
I’m consistent since you cannot find anyone in scripture who was declared saved and became damned, the same with eternal life.
The burden of proof is on you to prove the negative which you cannot.
Next fallacy
Foster
Active Member
The real deal.
In Hebrews 2:1–4, the author includes himself in warning all believers not to ignore the salvation that Jesus Christ offers. He states, “So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it” (verse 1, NLT). In the Old Testament, those who disregarded and disobeyed God’s law were punished; similarly, we cannot expect to escape punishment “if we neglect so great a salvation” (verse 3, NKJV).
To neglect so great a salvation is a phrase that recalls Israel’s experience. The author of Hebrews remembers the Israelites’ wilderness wanderings (see Hebrews 3:7—4:11) and how the people ignored God’s great salvation. As a result, they lived in captivity for years. The Greek verb (amelēsantes), translated as “if we neglect” in Hebrews 2:3, is from a root word meaning “to be careless of, disregard, pay no attention to.”
Jesus used the same word in the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:1–14). The guests summoned to the wedding banquet represent people invited to enter the kingdom of heaven. In the parable, these invited guests “paid no attention” and went to tend to their businesses and farms (verse 5). They all ignored or neglected so great a salvation.
Neglecting salvation is not the same as rejecting it. The author of Hebrews is not talking to sinners and inviting them to be saved. He is speaking to Christians, urging them to pay close attention to the great salvation they have received from the Lord. He wants his brothers and sisters in Christ to understand that careless neglect of one’s salvation has dreadful consequences. Some listeners had apparently heard and responded to the gospel’s truth but were now at risk of drifting away. The writer is sending out a wake-up call. God doesn’t just sit back and let His people drift away into rebellion. He issues warnings, and, when necessary, He disciplines His beloved children (see Proverbs 3:11–12; Hebrews 12:5–7; James 1:12).
To neglect so great a salvation is to “become spiritually dull and indifferent” (Hebrews 6:12, NLT). This happens when we get too comfortable and self-satisfied. We grow careless and complacent. The Bible repeatedly warns against such complacency (Proverbs 1:32;1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Hebrews 12:25).
Warren Wiersbe writes in The Bible Exposition Commentary, “More spiritual problems are caused by neglect than perhaps by any other failure on our part. We neglect God’s Word, prayer, worship with God’s people (see Heb. 10:25), and other opportunities for spiritual growth, and as a result, we start to drift. The anchor does not move; we do” (vol. 2, Victor Books, 1996, p. 282).
Our hope of salvation is in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is “an anchor for the soul, firm and secure” (Hebrews 6:18–20). Instead of drifting aimlessly, we must grab hold of our anchor and “strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And . . . run with endurance the race God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith” (Hebrews 12:1–2, NLT). Jesus endured the cross, public shame, and hostility from sinful people, but He did not grow weary or give up (see Hebrews 12:1–3). God wants us to stay laser-focused on Jesus Christ and His salvation and to follow His example so we, too, don’t grow weary and give up.
Rather than neglect so great a salvation, we persevere in working out our salvation, “obeying God with deep reverence and fear” (Philippians 2:12, NLT). We actively pursue a lifestyle of obedience to God and His Word (1 Peter 1:14–16). We yield ourselves to the work of the Holy Spirit. Like the apostle Paul, we don’t let ourselves drift but instead recognize this truth: “I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us” (Philippians 3:13–14, NLT).
In Hebrews 2:1–4, the author includes himself in warning all believers not to ignore the salvation that Jesus Christ offers. He states, “So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it” (verse 1, NLT). In the Old Testament, those who disregarded and disobeyed God’s law were punished; similarly, we cannot expect to escape punishment “if we neglect so great a salvation” (verse 3, NKJV).
To neglect so great a salvation is a phrase that recalls Israel’s experience. The author of Hebrews remembers the Israelites’ wilderness wanderings (see Hebrews 3:7—4:11) and how the people ignored God’s great salvation. As a result, they lived in captivity for years. The Greek verb (amelēsantes), translated as “if we neglect” in Hebrews 2:3, is from a root word meaning “to be careless of, disregard, pay no attention to.”
Jesus used the same word in the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:1–14). The guests summoned to the wedding banquet represent people invited to enter the kingdom of heaven. In the parable, these invited guests “paid no attention” and went to tend to their businesses and farms (verse 5). They all ignored or neglected so great a salvation.
Neglecting salvation is not the same as rejecting it. The author of Hebrews is not talking to sinners and inviting them to be saved. He is speaking to Christians, urging them to pay close attention to the great salvation they have received from the Lord. He wants his brothers and sisters in Christ to understand that careless neglect of one’s salvation has dreadful consequences. Some listeners had apparently heard and responded to the gospel’s truth but were now at risk of drifting away. The writer is sending out a wake-up call. God doesn’t just sit back and let His people drift away into rebellion. He issues warnings, and, when necessary, He disciplines His beloved children (see Proverbs 3:11–12; Hebrews 12:5–7; James 1:12).
To neglect so great a salvation is to “become spiritually dull and indifferent” (Hebrews 6:12, NLT). This happens when we get too comfortable and self-satisfied. We grow careless and complacent. The Bible repeatedly warns against such complacency (Proverbs 1:32;1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Hebrews 12:25).
Warren Wiersbe writes in The Bible Exposition Commentary, “More spiritual problems are caused by neglect than perhaps by any other failure on our part. We neglect God’s Word, prayer, worship with God’s people (see Heb. 10:25), and other opportunities for spiritual growth, and as a result, we start to drift. The anchor does not move; we do” (vol. 2, Victor Books, 1996, p. 282).
Our hope of salvation is in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is “an anchor for the soul, firm and secure” (Hebrews 6:18–20). Instead of drifting aimlessly, we must grab hold of our anchor and “strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And . . . run with endurance the race God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith” (Hebrews 12:1–2, NLT). Jesus endured the cross, public shame, and hostility from sinful people, but He did not grow weary or give up (see Hebrews 12:1–3). God wants us to stay laser-focused on Jesus Christ and His salvation and to follow His example so we, too, don’t grow weary and give up.
Rather than neglect so great a salvation, we persevere in working out our salvation, “obeying God with deep reverence and fear” (Philippians 2:12, NLT). We actively pursue a lifestyle of obedience to God and His Word (1 Peter 1:14–16). We yield ourselves to the work of the Holy Spirit. Like the apostle Paul, we don’t let ourselves drift but instead recognize this truth: “I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us” (Philippians 3:13–14, NLT).
What does it mean to neglect so great a salvation (Hebrews 2:3)? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean to neglect so great a salvation? What is the meaning of Hebrews 2:3?
www.gotquestions.org
Johann
Active Member
And perseverance? What do you make of these verses contained in Scripture?
Romans 2:6–7
“[God] will repay each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good (ζητοῦσιν δόξαν) seek glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”
Greek:
καθ’ ὑπομονὴν ἔργου ἀγαθοῦ = “by perseverance in good work”
ὑπομονή (hypomonē) – noun meaning steadfastness, endurance, patient continuance
ζητοῦσιν (zētousin) – present active participle of ζητέω meaning they are seeking continually
Paul affirms that eternal life is given to those who continually seek God through steadfastness, not to those who merely made a past profession.
2. Romans 11:22
“Behold then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity; but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
Greek:
ἐὰν ἐπιμείνῃς τῇ χρηστότητι – “if you remain in His kindness”
ἐπιμείνῃς – aorist active subjunctive of ἐπιμένω, meaning to continue, remain, persevere
This conditional clause shows perseverance as necessary--even for those already grafted in.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:1–2
“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel... by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.”
Greek:
εἰ κατέχετε – “if you hold fast”
κατέχετε – present active indicative of κατέχω, meaning to hold firmly, retain, keep possession
The present tense emphasizes ongoing retention, not a one-time reception. Faith must be persevered in, or it was “in vain.”
4. Galatians 6:9
“Let us not grow weary in doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.”
Greek:
μὴ ἐκκακῶμεν – “let us not lose heart” (present active subjunctive of ἐκκακέω, meaning to faint or give up)
ἐκλυόμενοι – present middle participle of ἐκλύω, to relax, loosen, collapse
Perseverance in doing good is essential. The reward (reaping) is conditional upon not giving up.
5. Philippians 2:12–13
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you...”
Greek:
κατεργάζεσθε – present middle imperative of κατεργάζομαι, to bring about, accomplish
The imperative mood and present tense make this an ongoing command.
Paul is clear: God is working in you, but you must also work it out, which is cooperative perseverance.
6. Colossians 1:22–23
“...to present you holy and blameless... if indeed you continue in the faith, firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel...”
Greek:
εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει – “if indeed you continue in the faith”
ἐπιμένετε – present active indicative of ἐπιμένω, to persist, to continue
Again, perseverance in faith is explicitly required for being presented holy and blameless.
7. 1 Thessalonians 3:5
“I sent to learn about your faith, for fear that the tempter had tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.”
Paul feared their faith might not have endured, making his preaching void.
Faith must be maintained, or even Paul's apostolic labor could be rendered fruitless.
8. 2 Timothy 2:12
“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us.”
Greek:
εἰ ὑπομένομεν – “if we endure” (present active indicative of ὑπομένω)
συμβασιλεύσομεν – “we will reign together” (future active indicative of συμβασιλεύω)
ἀρνησόμεθα... ἀρνήσεται – “we deny... He will deny” (future of ἀρνέομαι)
The conditional structure shows that reigning with Christ is contingent upon our endurance, and denial leads to reciprocal denial.
Summary of Greek Verbs of Perseverance in Paul:
Greek Verb Meaning Textual Reference
ὑπομένω / ὑπομονή endure, perseverance Rom 2:7, 2 Tim 2:12
ἐπιμένω continue, persist Rom 11:22, Col 1:23
κατέχω hold fast, retain 1 Cor 15:2
κατεργάζομαι work out, accomplish Phil 2:12
ἐκκακέω / ἐκλύω faint, grow weary, give up Gal 6:9
ζητέω seek diligently Rom 2:7
Paul's theology of salvation is not passive, nor is perseverance an optional second-tier virtue.
These present tense imperatives and indicatives consistently affirm that perseverance in faith and obedience is expected, not merely assumed.
The believer's cooperation with God's grace is a necessary, ongoing reality in Pauline soteriology, and the Greek verbs make this grammatically unambiguous.
This isn’t the Calvinistic “P” of TULIP (Perseverance of the Saints) as systematized by later theology, but rather a thoroughly biblical reality that saturates the Pauline epistles--rooted in repeated imperatives and present-tense calls to continue, endure, and not turn back (e.g., Romans 11:22; Colossians 1:23; 2 Timothy 2:12).
Would you agree this is a consistent emphasis in Paul, apart from theological systems?
Just want to make absolutely sure we are on the same page. I have given up on sending links, most here are not interested.
J.
civic
Active Member
Much like salvation and justification , sanctification there is a past, present and future aspect to eternal life. Those who persevere in this life will receive the fullness of their eternal life in the resurrection of the saints when corruption puts on in corruption , mortality immortality etc …
Johann
Active Member
Hopefully without compromising the Scriptures--other than that, all good.
J.
Dizerner
Active Member
synergy
Active Member
What I said is that Rom 2:13-15 was directed to the Nations (Gentiles). You may bark against Rom 2:13-15 all you want. I'll stick with Paul, if you don't mind.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
civic
Active Member
Projecting since I quoted Jesus and you reject His words , command
It’s called The Lie.
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
Here’s The Lie:
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Genesis 3:4
Go ahead and disobey God (sin) you won’t die.
That is OSAS in a nutshell.
A doctrine of demons.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Dizerner
Active Member
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