Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[civic]

That doesn't even make sense, lol.

Christ said A WORSE THING will come upon him.

Your own verse supports me not you.

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." (Jn. 5:14 NKJ)

Nothing worse came upon those who were healed/ saved.

Got Scripture?

 

[synergy]

Your own verse supports me not you.

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." (Jn. 5:14 NKJ)

Nothing worse came upon those who were healed/ saved.

Got Scripture?

Heb 6:4-6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This talks about the consequences of a deliberate, open, persistent, and incorrigible falling away from having partaken of the Holy Spirit. They are reduced lower than those who crucified Christ because there no longer exists the possibility of repentance.

 

[Red Baker]

@mailmandan

I have no difficulty with those verses. I only have an issue with your eisegesis which culminates in works salvation/works righteousness.

As a Christian I am running the race, striving to do good works and perseverance to the end would be a confirmation of my salvation status.

Amen, it's just that simple, why complicate the issue?

 

[Red Baker]

@mailmandan @GodsGrace

You don't HARMONIZE Dan....

Listen to the worm calling the snail slimy.

 

[synergy]

@mailmandan

Amen, it's just that simple, why complicate the issue?

Are you saying that James is "complicating the issue" with verses like the following? :

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

 

[synergy]

@mailmandan @GodsGrace

Listen to the worm calling the snail slimy.

Let's see how you harmonize James 2:14:26 with your presuppositions.

 

[Red Baker]

@Dizerner

Here's what I do know.

So, by your confession, you know very little of the word of God and what you think you know even that you're confused....... understood!

1. Christians are tempted to false doctrines and Scripture says many will succumb to them.

It is not so much as being tempted ~even though we should ever beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, etc. Matthew 16:6

A child of God starts out knowing nothing concerning truth, they can only receive what they are first taught, but as they grow in grace and knowledge of the truth, they begin to shed false teachings that they first thought was the truth, and during their lifetime as a follower of Christ, they come to a more perfect knowledge of the truth, yet, their knowledge in the flesh is never perfected as Christ believed and taught ~ maybe close, but we spend our life searching and coming to a more complete understanding ~ on a scale of one to ten, God's children would be from one to eight, plus or minus. Perfection will never be reached until we received a glorified body, not until then.

2. Scripture is crystal clear that Christians should be aware they can fall away and do something about it.

Agreed ~ this is true in a practical sense only of falling away, impossible to be true in an eternal sense, since Christ secured this gift for us, and God's gift and calling are without repentance. Romans 11:29; Psalms 89 which teaches our salvation from sin and condemnation was secured by TWO IMMUTABEL ACTS OF GOD that cannot be broken, impossible! I believe God's word not men like you.

Psalms 89:30-34~"If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

3. God is not double-minded, and never intended for his Word to be ambiguous.

Amen, and this is WHERE my hope is built upon........... Jesus' blood and righteousness, not mine !

4. The doctrine of Eternal Security is actually responsible for many souls' eternal damnation.

Words of a unlearned and untaught professor! Adam's disobedience is the ONLY cause of men facing the second death in the lake of fire!

Romans 5:12​

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
In Adam!

1st Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

5. There will be spiritual blood on the hands of every Christian that preaches this lie.

Got scriptures for your statement? Provide them. Of course you do not, it is your private interpretation of the scriptures. David in Psalms 89 said that you are a liar and do not speak the truth. You know nothing of God's faithfulness as David sing in Psalm 89. and David was a prophet and you are not.

6. No Christian was recorded believing this doctrine until the time of John Calvin.

Again, you know nothing as you think you do. Others taugh5t this before Calvin ~Martin Luther was just before Calvin, and many other all the way back to Augustine, but forget about men, what saith the word of God? For men at their best had errors as we all do. A child of God life is HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD, how safe is that?

Colossians 3:3​

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

 

[Dizerner]

Got scriptures for your statement? Provide them. Of course you do not

I've already posted it and you left it off the reply... how dishonest of you.

When I say to the wicked,`O wicked man, you shall surely die!'
and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way,
that wicked man shall die in his iniquity;
but his blood I will require at your hand. (Ezek. 33:8 NKJ)

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Much like salvation and justification , sanctification there is a past, present and future aspect to eternal life.

 

[Red Baker]

It’s called The Lie.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-11


Here’s The Lie:


Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Genesis 3:4

Go ahead and disobey God (sin) you won’t die.


That is OSAS in a nutshell.


A doctrine of demons.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

The lie is telling folks that once they have asked Jesus to come into their hearts then they are saved and will go to heaven at death, regardless how they live their life, eternal life is their for the asking and nothing can change that!

The truth said:

Psalms 89:20-37~I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

The salvation of God's elect, the seed of Jesus Christ, is secured by TWO IMMUNTABLE ACTS OF GOD, HIS OATH and HIS PROMISES OF GRACE! Our salvation is NOT depended on our faithfulness, but on God's faithfulness! There forth, I too will sing of God's faithfulness.


Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father
There is no shadow of turning with Thee
Thou changest not, Thy compassions, they fail not
As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness

Morning by morning new mercies I see
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me
Summer and winter and springtime and harvest
Sun, moon and stars in their courses above
Join with all nature in manifold witness
To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness

Morning by morning new mercies I see
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me
Pardon for sin and a peace that endureth
Thine own dear presence to cheer and to guide
Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow
Blessings all mine with 10, 000 beside
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness

Morning by morning new mercies I see
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me

 

[Red Baker]

I've already posted it and you left it off the reply... how dishonest of you.

When I say to the wicked,`O wicked man, you shall surely die!'
and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way,
that wicked man shall die in his iniquity;
but his blood I will require at your hand. (Ezek. 33:8 NKJ)

Your statement said that those who preach eternal security, that there will be blood on the hands of everyone who preached this, is the reason why I said what I said, but I do see the incorrect scripture you use that you desire to support what you said, but it does not, which cause me to not even consider your scripture. later...I'll address this in depth more, along with @synergy after I return.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are many who obey out of fear or pressure not because they desire to please God and out of selfish motives

I'm sure these persons exist because they may not understand how much God loves them.

However, for whatever reason they are obeying,,,,they are still obeying God and fulfilling what God expects from them.

I hope you're not saying that you question their salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol

I just repeated what James saud

If I say I have faith. If I claim to have faith. Same difference

The word is Lego. It means to say to speak to
Mention to state as fact to
Claim.

But I understand why you do not like it. You need to prove your merit based gospel while denying you are trying to merit it

Sorry EG...I've lost the thread....

Let's try again:

James 2:14 is the verse in question
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?


Just want to point out that in verse 12 James is instructing that we should SPEAK and ACT as those who are to be judged.
(by the Law of Liberty...not THE LAW)....


Then in verse 14 he teaches about one that SAYS he has faith, but that person has no works.


So, I hate discussing words because it means we are not trusting the plain language of the bible but are trying to get around it somehow.

YOU say that SAY and CLAIM...a word YOU brought into the discussion is the same.

So let's try this:

1. Mary CLAIMED that she would go buy bread.

2. John SAID that he would go buy bread.

Lunch time comes around. Do you think no. 1 will get the bread or no. 2 ??
Do you trust Mary more or John more to get it done?


When it suits us we GO TO THE GREEK....we stick to every little nuance.
When it does NOT suit us...then the words get to mean the same.

If James is writing something,,,he means what he's writing.


I'll help you along...
Here's the amplified version:
Amplified Bible
What is the benefit, my fellow believers, if someone claims to have faith but has no [good] works [as evidence]? Can that [kind of] faith save him? [No, a mere claim of faith is not sufficient—genuine faith produces good works.]

It supports your view, right?

Now let's look at it a bit better.
What James is saying is that IT DOES NOT GOOD TO SAY YOU HAVE FAITH....
if it's NOT JOINED BY GOOD WORKS.

IOW....just as he states:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD...it's a DEAD FAITH.

If we CLAIM to have faith...
it better be followed up by good works or WE WILL NOT BE JUSTIFIED.

We could fool man but what WE SAY,,,but we cannot fool God.

No use to spend time on words....
FAITH gets us saved.
FAITH PLUS WORKS will get us sanctified.

If we are NOT sanctified....our justificaiton will also be lost.

If we do NOT OBEY God....we cannot possibly be saved because we become again
as the unbeliever....the tax collector (Matthew 18)...the dog that RETURNS to his vomit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your statement said that those who preach eternal security, that there will be blood on the hands of everyone who preached this, is the reason why I said what I said, but I do see the incorrect scripture you use that you desire to support what you said, but it does not, which cause me to not even consider your scripture. later...I'll address this in depth more, along with @synergy after I return.

You do not CARE to understand what @Dizerner posted.

OSAS can cause many to not follow Jesus' commands.
If we do not OBEY JESUS,,,,we could become as an unbeliever.

Unbelievers are NOT SAVED.

We are not to be wicked....
The passage in question teaches that we are to warn persons that God commands that we obey Him.

If WE DO NOT....we are contributing to the possibility of that person becoming lost again.


D used a perfect verse.

 

[mailmandan]

I’d push back a little here, if you don’t mind. When you said, “they were once saved,” based on 2 Peter 2, I think the Greek and the flow of the passage suggest something different.

Yes, Peter says they “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 2:20), but that word for “escaped” (ἀποφυγόντες) is an aorist active participle--so, grammatically, it just describes a past completed action. It doesn’t in itself imply inward regeneration. It can just mean they left behind the world’s pollution externally, perhaps through moral reform or association with believers.

And this “knowledge” they had? It’s ἐπίγνωσις, full knowledge, yes--but even that word can refer to a relational or doctrinal acquaintance, not necessarily to the saving new birth described elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν in John 3:3).

(2:20, 21) The subject of false teachers is continued in this verse. These are the false
teachers of 2:1 who deny the doctrine of atonement by the substitutionary death of the
Lord Jesus. Hence they are not saved, only professing Christians. They are said to have
had a knowledge of the Lord Jesus. It is one thing to know Him personally, as a believer
does, and another to know of Him, namely, the facts about Him, and to give a mental
acquiescence to these, as an unbeliever does. Such a knowledge resulted in their escaping
the pollutions of the world. The world here is kosmos (kosmo"), the world system of
evil. That in this system which they escaped is given us in the word miasma (miasma).
Thayer defines this word as “that which defiles,” and explains it in its occurrence here as
“vices the foulness of which contaminates one in his intercourse with the ungodly mass of
mankind.” Strachan says: “In the LXX (Septuagint, Greek translation of the Old
Testament) the word seems to have a technical religious sense, the profanation of flesh by
ordinary use which is set apart for sacrifice. This sense lingers here. The body is sacred to
God, and to give licentious rein to the passions is miasma (miasma) (pollution).” The
moral and ethical influence of the Word of God had acted as a detergent and a deterrent
upon these false teachers to the end that their outward lives had been relatively pure. But
as they persisted in their false teaching that grace gave license to sin, they became
entangled in their former licentious ways. “Entangle” is (ejmplekw), “to
inweave.” The noun speaks of an interweaving, a braiding. Their going back to their
former immoral lives was not the act of a moment, but a gradual process, as the word
implies. Vincent quotes a classical author (Aeschylus) on the use of this word, “For not on
a sudden or in ignorance will ye be entangled by your folly.”
Wuest.


Peter uses similar language for false teachers who “deny the Master who bought them” (2:1), but that doesn't mean they were born again. Judas Iscariot had intimacy with Christ, shared in ministry, even performed miracles--yet Jesus called him “a devil” (John 6:70).

Then Peter hits hard in verse 22 with those two proverbs: “The dog returns to its vomit,” and “the sow returns to the mire.” If you think about it, that’s not describing someone who was changed in nature and then fell from grace. That’s saying the nature never changed at all. The dog was always a dog; the pig always a pig. Had they truly become a new creation in Christ, Peter likely would have said, “a sheep returning to the wolves,” or something like that. But he doesn’t-because their return proved they never belonged.

Also, when it says in verse 15, “Forsaking the right way, they went astray,” the Greek is καταλιπόντες τὴν εὐθεῖαν ὁδὸν ἐπλανήθησαν--they chose to leave the right way, yes, but again, that’s about forsaking revealed truth they were exposed to. That doesn’t automatically mean they were indwelt by the Spirit and then lost salvation.

I totally agree with you that Scripture warns against going astray and turning away...that’s real. But I believe these warnings function as tests of genuine faith, not proofs that someone was born again and then lost.

There’s a big difference between proximity to truth and possession of saving life.

J.

Amen and well said! In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God through previous promises may become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. Moral reform is not a substitute for regeneration.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[mailmandan]

Are you saying that James is "complicating the issue" with verses like the following? :

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Which definition of "justified" do YOU believe fits the context in James 2:14-26?

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

www.bibletools.org

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank God above it doesn't matter what you state.

Actually army,,,I don't state anything.
I post scripture.
Scripture is making the statement.

The Bible is inspired. God was backing up Jesus through Paul.

Lawlessness is SIN. To be lawless is to have no standard, or to miss the standard, which is the definition of sin.

Sure, but salvation is in the hands of God, so they cannot lose that. They are either saved by God, or they are not saved.

But John says that they leave the church to show they were never of the church. Going to church is not the same as being part of the church. Those people who left Jesus in John 6 were apostate. Are you going to say that everyone including the 12 were saved here, or was Jesus clear when He said that only those drawn by the Father stay?Did Jesus say that the 12 were His, but one would change their mind and walk away? Or did He say that, even from that moment, Judas was a devil?

"Gnosticism was a notable heretical movement of the 2nd-century Christian Church, partially of pre-Christian origin."John was seeing gnosticism coming, while it had not yet taken root. He was preparing the church for what was at the door with gnosticism coming in.

Judaizers were coming into the church, they were already there. Gnosticism was incoming at the end of the first century, and John could see it coming. He was preparing the church with his epistle.

I will again say that it is complicated, because we do not know the heart of the person. John was saying that these actions prove they were never of the faith to begin with. There were others who remained who may not have been saved either. It is those who took direct action who proved it.

You have to follow the context. While you were this way, yet He has done this thing for you, IF INDEED you continue in it. Which means, if you don't indeed continue in it, then verse 22 never happened. The issue with OSAS is that they don't believe that. They believe that as long as you can claim 22, verse 23 doesn't exist. You don't have to continue in the faith, because, once saved, always saved. Perseverance (preservation) of the saints says that verse 23 happens because God keeps us in the faith. God saved us, and God will enable us to continue by His grace. (Jude 24,25)

I thought it was because OSAS is a heresy?

So God fails? (Jude 24,25) If they fall from the faith, and die outside of the faith, they were never saved to begin with. For God has begun a good work, and will be faithful to complete it. Do you believe God is unfaithful?

Paul kind of made it sound like when God allowed Satan to attack his ministry, that it was the end of everything. However, if you like the Catholic church so much, why not join them? I believe everything that is happening now is a part of eschatology, in that the church is going to fall apart, and there will only be a small core of true believers, which may be across denominations. Unless you are trying to say that having denominations means the church has divided up Christ. Could it be the church then? There is only a core set of beliefs/theologies that cannot be negotiated. There is plenty that will not send someone to hell, but some that will. Why? You can't hold to them/believe them and be saved.

Humanity went astray from Adam. All we like sheep have gone astray. David wasn't talking about believers, but humanity.

Is that why Calvinism has "Perseverance of the Saints"? Would you state that John Calvin himself denies Jude 24,25? What did Paul say in Ephesians about salvation?
"13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory."
We were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Sealed. Which is an earnest of our inheritance (earnest meaning down payment), until we take material possession of it.

If I looked in your Bible would I find parts of John 6 and Jude 24,25 missing? Jesus said that the Father sent Him to Earth to save those the Father has given to Him, and He would not lose a single one. Even if you were to say that this is speaking of the 12, would that not mean, given your belief, that Jesus lost Judas? What did Jesus mean when He said of the 12 that one is a devil? What about the other 12, who given what you have said, could lose their salvation at any time? Why didn't Jesus simply say He couldn't be sure how many were devils?

REALLY? Could you point out where this is stated by God through Paul in context? And could you show in scripture how we humans are able to thwart the very will and action of God? We can't trust prophecy anymore because we could thwart it at any time...

No I do not. However, if you aren't saved in the first place, then you are free to do as you please, such as abandoning God. This is why I hate post-modernism and post truth thought. That is where this comes from. I believe Jesus in John 6 when He says that He will not lose a single one. Besides we are created things, and Paul is convinved that nothing, to include created things, can separate us from the love of God, which is anchored, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The burden is on you to prove they were saved in the first place. John 6 seems pretty clear in saying they are not.
Again, OSAS is a heresy because salvation is not bound to us, or found in us, but in God. Our eternal security is not in who we are, but is found and anchored solely in God through Christ. We cannot claim it, because it is only for those who are saved, and is, again, found in God alone. (Jude 24,25)

The burden is on me to prove that "THEY" were saved in the first place?

Let's see what Jesus states about "THEY":


Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Here is what Jesus is teaching:
1. Some hear the word and RECEIVE it with joy.
2. These persons BELIEVE FOR A WHILE. (to believe is to be saved).
3. These persons, when tempted...FALL AWAY.
Fall away from what?



Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.


Here is what Jesus is teaching:

1. The prodigal son has come to life AGAIN....
this means he was:
saved
lost
saved AGAIN


Can YOU support your view that those that FALL AWAY...were never saved to begin with?
More than one verse would be nice.

I have plenty more, BTW.

BUT
Your letter above is not managable.
If you care to condense it down to a managable size, I'm more than willing to discuss with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Answer is very simple. We do do works after we are saved because we are saved not to become saved.

What did Jesus say about loving your brother? No way in the world can we do that till AFTER SALVATION.

If we look for a loophole to get around being a good servant then sanctification is not working in our lives.


Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart]; Matthew 3:8

If not, well.

31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory (His majesty and splendor), and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; [Ezek. 34:17.]
33 And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.
34 Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and lodged Me,
36 I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me. [Isa. 58:7.]
37 Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink?
38 And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You?
39 And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?
40 And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me. [Prov. 19:17.]
41 Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me and entertain Me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me with help and ministering care.
44 Then they also [in their turn] will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45 And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me. [Prov. 14:31; 17:5.]
46 Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life. [Dan. 12:2.]
Matthew 25:31–46.

Welcome to the discussion....
Actually I AM discussing AFTER salvation.

So in Matthew 25 does Jesus expect you to follow His teaching?

Right. Too many look for loopholes.
There are NO loopholes in Christianity.
We are expected to obey God.

Not sure you agree or not.

 

[Johann]

Amen and well said! In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God through previous promises may become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. Moral reform is not a substitute for regeneration.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Amen brother, it all hinges on--"Moral reform is not a substitute for regeneration."

God bless.

Johann.

 

[civic]

Heb 6:4-6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This talks about the consequences of a deliberate, open, persistent, and incorrigible falling away from having partaken of the Holy Spirit. They are reduced lower than those who crucified Christ because there no longer exists the possibility of repentance.

I think of judas in this passage. Do you think he was saved ?