Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[GodsGrace]

Continued :

James 2:8
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal lawaccording to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

John 13:34-35
34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:13
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:17
17 "This I command you, that you love one another

Matt 22:37-40
And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

What biblical love looks like in the mirror. Paul defines love below and what it should look like in the Christians life

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

hope this helps !!!

So if love leads us to good works....which it does....
and everyone on this thread states that they love Jesus....

WHY is it so difficult to reply to my simple question?
WHY do they dance around it?
WHY is it called works salvation as if works is a bad word?

The question is very simple:

AFTER SALVATION....ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

 

[civic]

So if love leads us to good works....which it does....
and everyone on this thread states that they love Jesus....

WHY is it so difficult to reply to my simple question?
WHY do they dance around it?
WHY is it called works salvation as if works is a bad word?

The question is very simple:

AFTER SALVATION....ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Fruit, obedience, good works done in love is the answer. Everything else is wood, hay and stubble. It’s a matter of the heart and remember no one expected judas, one of the 12 as being the betrayer. He looked good from the outside but was rotten on the inside filled with selfish desires, motives that only Jesus could see.

 

[GodsGrace]

Fruit, obedience, good works done in love is the answer. Everything else is wood, hay and stubble. It’s a matter of the heart and remember no one expected judas, one of the 12 as being the betrayer. He looked good from the outside but was rotten on the inside filled with selfish desires, motives that only Jesus could see.

Agreed.
It's as @Dizerner has also stated, which is perfectly correct.

So who here does works out of hate?

So what exactly are we debating?

I can understand how some might believe in OSAS.....

But I CANNOT understand why I get pushback on good works.

 

[civic]

Agreed.
It's as @Dizerner has also stated, which is perfectly correct.

So who here does works out of hate?

So what exactly are we debating?

I can understand how some might believe in OSAS.....

But I CANNOT understand why I get pushback on good works.

Good works are a result of abiding in Christ, the fruits of righteousness

I don’t obey Jesus because I have to but because I want to.

 

[Johann]

I actually stated they were false teachers...but they were once saved.
They had ESCAPED THE DEFILEMENT OF THE WORLD...but went back to it...like a dog to its vomit.

2 Peter 2:15
FORSAKING THE RIGHT WAY....they WENT ASTRAY.....

Paul warns about going astray also.

I’d push back a little here, if you don’t mind. When you said, “they were once saved,” based on 2 Peter 2, I think the Greek and the flow of the passage suggest something different.

Yes, Peter says they “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 2:20), but that word for “escaped” (ἀποφυγόντες) is an aorist active participle--so, grammatically, it just describes a past completed action. It doesn’t in itself imply inward regeneration. It can just mean they left behind the world’s pollution externally, perhaps through moral reform or association with believers.

And this “knowledge” they had? It’s ἐπίγνωσις, full knowledge, yes--but even that word can refer to a relational or doctrinal acquaintance, not necessarily to the saving new birth described elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν in John 3:3).

(2:20, 21) The subject of false teachers is continued in this verse. These are the false
teachers of 2:1 who deny the doctrine of atonement by the substitutionary death of the
Lord Jesus. Hence they are not saved, only professing Christians. They are said to have
had a knowledge of the Lord Jesus. It is one thing to know Him personally, as a believer
does, and another to know of Him, namely, the facts about Him, and to give a mental
acquiescence to these, as an unbeliever does. Such a knowledge resulted in their escaping
the pollutions of the world. The world here is kosmos (kosmo"), the world system of
evil. That in this system which they escaped is given us in the word miasma (miasma).
Thayer defines this word as “that which defiles,” and explains it in its occurrence here as
“vices the foulness of which contaminates one in his intercourse with the ungodly mass of
mankind.” Strachan says: “In the LXX (Septuagint, Greek translation of the Old
Testament) the word seems to have a technical religious sense, the profanation of flesh by
ordinary use which is set apart for sacrifice. This sense lingers here. The body is sacred to
God, and to give licentious rein to the passions is miasma (miasma) (pollution).” The
moral and ethical influence of the Word of God had acted as a detergent and a deterrent
upon these false teachers to the end that their outward lives had been relatively pure. But
as they persisted in their false teaching that grace gave license to sin, they became
entangled in their former licentious ways. “Entangle” is (ejmplekw), “to
inweave.” The noun speaks of an interweaving, a braiding. Their going back to their
former immoral lives was not the act of a moment, but a gradual process, as the word
implies. Vincent quotes a classical author (Aeschylus) on the use of this word, “For not on
a sudden or in ignorance will ye be entangled by your folly.”
Wuest.


Peter uses similar language for false teachers who “deny the Master who bought them” (2:1), but that doesn't mean they were born again. Judas Iscariot had intimacy with Christ, shared in ministry, even performed miracles--yet Jesus called him “a devil” (John 6:70).

Then Peter hits hard in verse 22 with those two proverbs: “The dog returns to its vomit,” and “the sow returns to the mire.” If you think about it, that’s not describing someone who was changed in nature and then fell from grace. That’s saying the nature never changed at all. The dog was always a dog; the pig always a pig. Had they truly become a new creation in Christ, Peter likely would have said, “a sheep returning to the wolves,” or something like that. But he doesn’t-because their return proved they never belonged.

Also, when it says in verse 15, “Forsaking the right way, they went astray,” the Greek is καταλιπόντες τὴν εὐθεῖαν ὁδὸν ἐπλανήθησαν--they chose to leave the right way, yes, but again, that’s about forsaking revealed truth they were exposed to. That doesn’t automatically mean they were indwelt by the Spirit and then lost salvation.

I totally agree with you that Scripture warns against going astray and turning away...that’s real. But I believe these warnings function as tests of genuine faith, not proofs that someone was born again and then lost.

There’s a big difference between proximity to truth and possession of saving life.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good works are a result of abiding in Christ, the fruits of righteousness

I don’t obey Jesus because I have to but because I want to.

If you didn't WANT to ,,,, then you wouldn't.

So if good works are a result of abiding in Christ....
then NOT having good works means we are NOT abiding in Christ.

Just as He taught in John 15:1-6

Jesus is teaching believers how to be saved....
He's speaking to the branches that are PART OF THE VINE....

I believe we should pay attention to what Jesus teaches and not fight it tooth and nail.

Was waiting on your reply to say:
Good Night!
Tomorrow.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Rom 2:13-15 was directed to the Nations, not to Jews who should have known better.

You may continue to bark against Rom 2:13-15 all you want. I'll stick with Paul, if you don't mind.

Lol

Roman’s 1 was addressed to nations

Rom 2 was addressed to Isreal

You don’t stick with Paul my friend Paul attacked legalism. You actually stand with those Paul attacked

 

[civic]

If you didn't WANT to ,,,, then you wouldn't.

So if good works are a result of abiding in Christ....
then NOT having good works means we are NOT abiding in Christ.

Just as He taught in John 15:1-6

Jesus is teaching believers how to be saved....
He's speaking to the branches that are PART OF THE VINE....

I believe we should pay attention to what Jesus teaches and not fight it tooth and nail.

Was waiting on your reply to say:
Good Night!
Tomorrow.

There are many who obey out of fear or pressure not because they desire to please God and out of selfish motives

 

[civic]

The Christian life is not about me it’s about others serving them in love. It’s what I give to others not what o get out of it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

LOL

You were very careful to get the word CLAIM in there!

You just can't answer an easy question!

Lol

I just repeated what James saud

If I say I have faith. If I claim to have faith. Same difference

The word is Lego. It means to say to speak to
Mention to state as fact to
Claim.

But I understand why you do not like it. You need to prove your merit based gospel while denying you are trying to merit it

 

[Dizerner]

that word for “escaped” (ἀποφυγόντες) is an aorist active participle--so, grammatically, it just describes a past completed action....
It can just mean they left behind the world’s pollution externally, perhaps through moral reform or association with believers.

This is an argument based in logic, not Greek grammar.

One shouldn't just throw Greek grammar in there to look more "authoritative."

Escaping moral pollution only externally is not escaping it.

Jesus was clear—moral pollution only starts with the heart.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

James is asking "can faith save him?" That's the question to which you said no.

No it is not

Do you know how to read

What does it profit a person if he says he has faith but has no works. Can that claimed faith save him

(James 2:14) My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

There I highlighted it for you can you see it now?

Therefore, faith devoid of good works cannot save. That aligns perfectly with James 2:24 which you avoid like the plague.

There is no such thing as faith devoid of works

If you think there is. You are well. I do not know what to say

 

[Johann]

This is an argument based in logic, not Greek grammar.

One shouldn't just throw Greek grammar in there to look more "authoritative."

Escaping moral pollution only externally is not escaping it.

Jesus was clear—moral pollution only starts with the heart.

Friend, if you're not willing to be reproved (cf. παρακαλῶν, ἐλέγχων, ἐπιτιμῶν - 2 Timothy 4:2, “exhort, reprove, rebuke”), then perhaps it’s best I invest my time where correction is welcomed in the spirit of humility and love for truth.

This is not about who is more “authoritative” - for we are all under the Word of God (cf. ὑποτάγητε... πᾶς ἀδελφὸς – James 4:7, “submit... every brother”).

It’s about ὀρθοτομοῦντα τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας - “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15), cutting it straight without twisting it to fit preconceptions.

So just say the word, and I’ll gladly shift my attention elsewhere, where νουθεσία (“admonition,” cf. 1 Corinthians 10:11) is welcomed, and not mistaken for hostility.

Ἐὰν δὲ καὶ παραιτήσῃ, if you wish to decline correction, I won’t press it further (Titus 3:10).

But remember: ὁ φρόνιμος ἀνὴρ δέχεται ἐλέγχους - “a wise man receives correction” (Proverbs 9:8, LXX).

Grace to you, and may the Lord grant both of us illumination through His written Word.


Does He Feel at Home?
Paul Prays (Eph. 3:17) that Christ may dwell in the hearts of the saints. The word
“dwell” is from a Greek word made up of two words, one meaning “to live in a home,”
and the other, literally meaning “down.” Paul prays that our Lord might live in our hearts
as His home. He is already in us, therefore Paul’s thought must be that He feel at home in
our hearts. The tense speaks of finality, the word for “down” speaking of permanency.
The full translation is, “That Christ may finally settle down and feel completely at home in
your hearts.”

It is one thing to be in a person’s home, another thing to feel completely at home there.
Our Lord condescends to live in the heart of a sinner saved by grace. What an honor to
have such a guest in our hearts. Do we make Him feel at home? Does He have free access
to all parts of our heart life, or is He shut out from this thing or that? Is He our constant
companion or are we occupied at times with persons or things that we feel are not
consistent with our fellowship with Him? Is He Lord of our lives, the invited guest to
occupy the throne room of our hearts? Many have tried to make Jesus Lord of their lives,
and have failed because they have tried in their own strength. No man calls Jesus Lord
except by the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul prays that we might be strengthened with
might by His Spirit in order that Christ might finally settle down and feel completely at
home in our hearts. The secret of the Lordship of Jesus, is a desire that the Holy Spirit
make Him Lord of our lives, and a trust in the Spirit to accomplish that for us.
Wuest.

J.

 

[armylngst]

YOU stated that Matthew 7:23 was referring to unsaved persons.
I stated that it does NOT.

Thank God above it doesn't matter what you state.

I'm happy to see that you reread that verse and have understood it differently.
And I was addressing what JESUS said.
I believe when JESUS says somesthing, we don't need Paul to back it up.

The Bible is inspired. God was backing up Jesus through Paul.

No mention of being born again or not in Matthew 7:23.
What Jesus said is that the LAWLESS will not enter into heaven.
Those that practice LAWLESSNESS.

Lawlessness is SIN. To be lawless is to have no standard, or to miss the standard, which is the definition of sin.

So you agree that a person could fall away from their faith?

Sure, but salvation is in the hands of God, so they cannot lose that. They are either saved by God, or they are not saved.

What?
We have a complex theology?
It is not cut and dry?

What does this mean?
That we cannot know the truth?

Paul, in all of his writings, is explaining HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN.
He's explaining HOW TO LIVE
and
HOW NOT TO LIVE.

The above is a bit confusing.
An apostate is one who belonged to the church and then left the church.
So, yes, a person could be a believer and then leave the faith/the church as you put it.

But John says that they leave the church to show they were never of the church. Going to church is not the same as being part of the church. Those people who left Jesus in John 6 were apostate. Are you going to say that everyone including the 12 were saved here, or was Jesus clear when He said that only those drawn by the Father stay?Did Jesus say that the 12 were His, but one would change their mind and walk away? Or did He say that, even from that moment, Judas was a devil?

Gnosticsm was already in the church by the end of the first century....
which is when John wrote his gospel and letters.
You could easily check this out on the net.

"Gnosticism was a notable heretical movement of the 2nd-century Christian Church, partially of pre-Christian origin."John was seeing gnosticism coming, while it had not yet taken root. He was preparing the church for what was at the door with gnosticism coming in.

John and Paul wrote about the coming incorrect teachings...
they knew it would happen because it was already starting when the Gentiles were being told
they had to be circumcised first before becoming Christian.
The Council of Jerusalem confirmed the theology regarding this particular practice.
More would come later on through the centuries.

Judaizers were coming into the church, they were already there. Gnosticism was incoming at the end of the first century, and John could see it coming. He was preparing the church with his epistle.

Agreed. But John was speaking of a specific group.
There are many warnings in his writings regarding persons that BELIEVED but then LEFT THE FAITH.

I will again say that it is complicated, because we do not know the heart of the person. John was saying that these actions prove they were never of the faith to begin with. There were others who remained who may not have been saved either. It is those who took direct action who proved it.

Many warning about holding on to the faith:
One verse that those that believe in OSAS cannot explain away:

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Notice what is happening in the above:

Verse 21 The person(s) was alienated and hostile and engaged in evil deeds.....not a believer.

Verse 22 The person has be reconciled and can be presented to God holy and blameless.

Verse 23 The warning: IF that person CONTINUES in the faith.

You have to follow the context. While you were this way, yet He has done this thing for you, IF INDEED you continue in it. Which means, if you don't indeed continue in it, then verse 22 never happened. The issue with OSAS is that they don't believe that. They believe that as long as you can claim 22, verse 23 doesn't exist. You don't have to continue in the faith, because, once saved, always saved. Perseverance (preservation) of the saints says that verse 23 happens because God keeps us in the faith. God saved us, and God will enable us to continue by His grace. (Jude 24,25)

The OSAS believers cannot exegete the above because it is impossible to misunderstand it.

I thought it was because OSAS is a heresy?

A believer can NOT CONTINUE in the faith.
It is possible to fall away from the faith.

So God fails? (Jude 24,25) If they fall from the faith, and die outside of the faith, they were never saved to begin with. For God has begun a good work, and will be faithful to complete it. Do you believe God is unfaithful?

Nice idea army...but it won't fly.

Too many verses that state the opposite.
Astray means to leave something.....
Also, when did the church splinter more than after the reformation? NEVER.

Paul kind of made it sound like when God allowed Satan to attack his ministry, that it was the end of everything. However, if you like the Catholic church so much, why not join them? I believe everything that is happening now is a part of eschatology, in that the church is going to fall apart, and there will only be a small core of true believers, which may be across denominations. Unless you are trying to say that having denominations means the church has divided up Christ. Could it be the church then? There is only a core set of beliefs/theologies that cannot be negotiated. There is plenty that will not send someone to hell, but some that will. Why? You can't hold to them/believe them and be saved.

Here is what astray means......
We cannot change the meaning of words to suit our incorrerct theology.


astray
/əˈstreɪ/
https://www.google.it/search?sca_es...2ahUKEwjz2qeRz6KNAxXYiP0HHZ5AGjEQ3eEDegQIOxAO
adverb

1. 1.
   away from the correct path or direction.
   "we went astray but a man redirected us"
   
   Sinonimi:
   off target
   
   wide of the mark
   
   wide
   
   awry
   
   off course
   
   off track
   
   off the right track
   
   adrift
   
   off beam
   
2. 2.
   into error or morally questionable behaviour.

Humanity went astray from Adam. All we like sheep have gone astray. David wasn't talking about believers, but humanity.

Oh. Well, I don't know where you're going with this.
Are you reformed in theology?

Are you saying God preserves the saved till their death?
If so, I'll post something from John Calvin himself.....he denies ANY security.

Is that why Calvinism has "Perseverance of the Saints"? Would you state that John Calvin himself denies Jude 24,25? What did Paul say in Ephesians about salvation?
"13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory."
We were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Sealed. Which is an earnest of our inheritance (earnest meaning down payment), until we take material possession of it.

And...it would make all of scripture irrelevant if eternal securty was correct...
so, obviously, if the bible is correct, eternal security cannot be correct.

If I looked in your Bible would I find parts of John 6 and Jude 24,25 missing? Jesus said that the Father sent Him to Earth to save those the Father has given to Him, and He would not lose a single one. Even if you were to say that this is speaking of the 12, would that not mean, given your belief, that Jesus lost Judas? What did Jesus mean when He said of the 12 that one is a devil? What about the other 12, who given what you have said, could lose their salvation at any time? Why didn't Jesus simply say He couldn't be sure how many were devils?

Of course God is working in us to complete a work...
IF WE ALLOW HIM TO.

REALLY? Could you point out where this is stated by God through Paul in context? And could you show in scripture how we humans are able to thwart the very will and action of God? We can't trust prophecy anymore because we could thwart it at any time...

Do you also believe we do not have the free will to abandon God?

No I do not. However, if you aren't saved in the first place, then you are free to do as you please, such as abandoning God. This is why I hate post-modernism and post truth thought. That is where this comes from. I believe Jesus in John 6 when He says that He will not lose a single one. Besides we are created things, and Paul is convinved that nothing, to include created things, can separate us from the love of God, which is anchored, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Of course the entire bible is the word of God.

So how would YOU reconcile these two conflicting ideas??

I post verses that suggest salvation can be lost,,,,
including words of Jesus...

The burden is on you to prove they were saved in the first place. John 6 seems pretty clear in saying they are not.
Again, OSAS is a heresy because salvation is not bound to us, or found in us, but in God. Our eternal security is not in who we are, but is found and anchored solely in God through Christ. We cannot claim it, because it is only for those who are saved, and is, again, found in God alone. (Jude 24,25)

 

[armylngst]

Lordship OSAS is a minor improvement over Free Grace OSAS, but keeps the same fundamental errors.

It denies actual free will after conversion and makes the warnings specifically addressed to Christians pointless.

It is addressed to people in the church, which includes saved and unsaved. So it is not specifically addressed to Christians, but to all who are in the church body, saved and unsaved. And, what is Lordship OSAS. I believe in eternal security that is solely based in God. You see, if you believe it is God who gets to choose who He wants to spend eternity with, being the Creator and King of the universe, is there anything you can do to change that? Is your view of salvation bound in man, or in God? If salvation is of God and is found in God, isn't God the only one who can say no?

 

[Dean]

So if love leads us to good works....which it does....
and everyone on this thread states that they love Jesus....

WHY is it so difficult to reply to my simple question?
WHY do they dance around it?
WHY is it called works salvation as if works is a bad word?

The question is very simple:

AFTER SALVATION....ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Answer is very simple. We do do works after we are saved because we are saved not to become saved.

What did Jesus say about loving your brother? No way in the world can we do that till AFTER SALVATION.

If we look for a loophole to get around being a good servant then sanctification is not working in our lives.


Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart]; Matthew 3:8

If not, well.

31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory (His majesty and splendor), and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; [Ezek. 34:17.]
33 And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.
34 Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and lodged Me,
36 I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me. [Isa. 58:7.]
37 Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink?
38 And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You?
39 And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?
40 And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me. [Prov. 19:17.]
41 Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me and entertain Me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me with help and ministering care.
44 Then they also [in their turn] will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45 And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me. [Prov. 14:31; 17:5.]
46 Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life. [Dan. 12:2.]
Matthew 25:31–46.

 

[mailmandan]

A simple YES is just too difficult.

A simple YES is too difficult for your loaded question. You believe that good works maintain salvation and that good works are the means by which we receive eternal life. I disagree with that so a simple YES will come across as if I do agree with you.

Are good works required to show our faith, glorify God and express our love for God and people? YES. Are good works required to obtain or maintain salvation? NO.

You say that good works are considered an important part of the Christian life?

Dan...Good works ARE the Christian life.

The Christian life is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (John 17:3) that is characterized by faith, hope, love and good works.

Why do you believe Jesus stated that we are to consider following Him BEFORE our choice to follow?:

Luke 14:27-30
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise *, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

1. Jesus says that if we do not carry our cross, we cannot follow Him.

2. Before following Him we are to count the cost...consider what it will cost.

3. If we do not finish what we begin...we will be ridiculed and told WE WERE NOT ABLE TO FINISH.

Just like all the other verses that state that we are to endure to the end.

You make perseverance sound like an extremely difficult burden that most Christians will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow Christians to slip through His hands. You seem to have more faith in self preservation than you do in God's preservation.

Folks who do not properly count the cost and fall away were never truly committed to begin with. I lost multiple family members, my best friend from childhood and things got pretty rocky for me at first with my wife and father in law when I became a Christian but I did not walk away from Christ.

So fruit is a by product.
Does this mean we don't have to bear fruit unless we want to?
Or does it mean we do?

We do. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful.

So could you answer this question now?

AFTER SALVATION...ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

YES, rightly understand.

 

[Unmerited]

Answer is very simple. We do do works after we are saved not to become saved.

What did Jesus say about loving your brother? No way in the world can we do that till AFTER SALVATION.

If we look for a loophole to get around being a good servant then sanctification is not working in our lives.

One of Jesus’ most significant parables regarding work is set in the context of investments (Matt. 25:14-30). A rich man delegates the management of his wealth to his servants, much as investors in today’s markets do. He gives five talents (a large unit of money) to the first servant, two talents to the second, and one talent to the third. Two of the servants earn 100 percent returns by trading with the funds, but the third servant hides the money in the ground and earns nothing. The rich man returns, rewards the two who made money, but severely punishes the servant who did nothing.

The meaning of the parable extends far beyond financial investments. God has given each person a wide variety of gifts, and he expects us to employ those gifts in his service. It is not acceptable merely to put those gifts on a closet shelf and ignore them. Like the three servants, we do not have gifts of the same degree. The return God expects of us is commensurate with the gifts we have been given. The servant who received one talent was not condemned for failing to reach the five-talent goal; he was condemned because he did nothing with what he was given. The gifts we receive from God include skills, abilities, family connections, social positions, education, experiences, and more. The point of the parable is that we are to use whatever we have been given for God’s purposes. The severe consequences to the unproductive servant, far beyond anything triggered by mere business mediocrity, tell us that we are to invest our lives, not waste them.

Yet the particular talent invested in the parable is money, on the order of a million U.S. dollars in today’s world. In modern English, this fact is obscured because the word talent has come to refer mainly to skills or abilities. But this parable concerns money. It depicts investing, not hoarding, as a godly thing to do if it accomplishes godly purposes in a godly manner. In the end, the master praises the two trustworthy servants with the words, “Well done, good and trustworthy slave” (Matthew 25:23). In these words, we see that the master cares about the results (“well done”), the methods ("good”), and the motivation (“trustworthy”).

More pointedly for the workplace, it commends putting capital at risk in pursuit of earning a return. Sometimes Christians speak as if growth, productivity, and return on investment were unholy to God. But this parable overturns that notion. We should invest our skills and abilities, but also our wealth and the resources made available to us at work, all for the affairs of God’s kingdom. This includes the production of needed goods and services. The volunteer who teaches Sunday school is fulfilling this parable. So are the entrepreneur who starts a new business and gives jobs to others, the health service administrator who initiates an AIDS-awareness campaign, and the machine operator who develops a process innovation.
God does not endow people with identical or necessarily equal gifts. And God does not expect identical or necessarily equal results from everyone's work. In the parable, one servant makes a return of five talents, while another makes two talents. The master praises both equally (Matthew 25:23).

It's important to observe that both servants invest for the benefit of their master, and they return to him not only his original investment, but also what they make on his behalf. When we say that everything we have is a "gift" form God, we don't mean that what we have belongs to us now, instead of to God. We mean that it is a privilege to be entrusted with talents, resources, and opportunities to work toward God's purposes in the world. The implication of the parable is that we if we do so, we take our place among all the faithful, trustworthy servants of God, no matter how big or small our accomplishments may seem.

 

[Dizerner]

it is not specifically addressed to Christians

The warnings are specifically addressed to believers, this is clear.

Unbelievers have nothing to fall away from, they have no standing with God.

Lordship OSAS is just another term for Perseverance (or Preservation) of the Saints, the idea that you are secure but still must bear spiritual fruit that God will force all believers to produce, thus still requiring some standard of behavior (Lordship).

It still removes free will.

 

[Foster]

To the trenches my friend . many within christendome now follow another jesus
who preaches the love of the world and a false gospel . ITS NOT JESUS my friend . its the dark one and his men
using THE NAME OF JESUS to sell a lie in HIS name .