Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Johann]

So you believe the Apostles were teaching against God's Laws, but the men from Judaea who stoned Stephen to death, were obeying God's Laws, and trying to get the Gentiles to obey God? I have heard of this preaching for years, but Acts 15 itself, exposes it as foolishness.

Acts 15: 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

So why did God give the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. Shall I not Seek God's Truth for this answer?

Acts 5: 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. (These would be the Pharisees and men who came down from Judea, Yes?)

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. (But the High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem was there. Wasn't he "Obeying God"? Or was Jesus actually right about them?)

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them "that obey him".

In the past, you would hide from my questions, ignore them, refuse to answer them. We will see if you are the same preacher or not.

Do you believe the "men from Judea, and the Pharisees" were filled with the Holy spirit like the apostles and the Gentiles that turned to God?

And that God "put no difference between us and them, (Pharisees and men from Judea) purifying their hearts by faith."

I don't think they had the same spirit on them that the Apostles did. This is why I don't agree with this world's religious system concerning Acts 15 that you are peddling. And when I raise these prudent and relevant questions, the promoters of this world's religions run and hide so they don't have to give the answer they know is true, exposing their own selves as false teachers.

And here is the kicker.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

I know you and "many" other promoters of this world's religious system, "Who come in Christ's Name" have preached for years that this is talking about God placing HIS impossible to obey Laws on the necks of men who trusted Him. Every on this forum has been taught from their youth, that this is speaking to the insidious Lie that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted and followed Him. Then you imply in your religious philosophy that God lied to these men, and told them they could obey these impossible to obey Laws, then HE killed them by the thousands when they didn't, so Jesus had to come and straighten His Father out, and destroy God's Laws.

This is one of the most insidious, wicked and evil lies promoted by this world's religions ever to be perpetrated.

When the truth is so simple and easy to understand that even a child can see, that the "Yoke of Bondage", impossible to bear, was the Commandments of men these children of the devil promoted, which made those who walked in the "Transgressors of God's Law. And it isn't me who said it, it is the Jesus "of the Bible".

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

But here comes Red Baker, trying to convince others that all the sudden, out of nowhere with absolutely ZERO Biblical evidence, these "children of the devil" who didn't have the Holy Spirit, who despised God's Commandments, polluted His sabbaths and rejected His Judgments, teaching instead for doctrines, "The commandments of men", Not God through Moses, were now trying to get the New Converts to obey God's Laws.

I showed you this years ago, and you mocked me then too. And no doubt you will do so again.

But for those reading along, can you not see what really happened? The Apostles were not trying to keep the Gentile converts who turned to God away from God's Laws. They kept the New Converts away from the traditions and philosophies of the mainstream religions of that time. That was the Yoke Peter spoke of. Jesus spoke of the same Yoke.

Matt. 23: 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat (reading Moses every Sabbath Day)

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after "their works": for they say (They teach the Law of Moses), and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees, men of Judaea) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This is the Yoke Peter spoke of.

Instead, they told the Gentile Converts that turned to God, to abstain from disobeying God in a few areas common with them, knowing they would learn the rest when they obeyed Jesus and "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness", and became "Learned of the Father".

Excellent, God honoring post here @Studyman--keep up the good work Greg.

Johann.

 

[Johann]

Great Post.

I might add if I may, "Not of (MAN'S) works, lest "any man" should boast. It seems quite clear that God partook of a Great work, all manner of Works, untold Works, to provide such Grace, Faith and Salvation to mere humans. And for what purpose?

"For we (Those who have Yielded themselves to God, and their body as instruments of Righteousness unto God) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God "hath before ordained" that we should walk in them.

if you will permit me brother--

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB)
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Paul clarifies that although salvation is by grace, believers are created in Christ to perform good works, demonstrating that they are an integral part of the Christian life.

3. Titus 3:8 (NASB)
"This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."
Paul encourages believers to be diligent in doing good deeds, which are the evidence of a transformed life.

4. Matthew 7:17–18 (NASB)
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Jesus teaches that a person’s character and actions reveal the nature of their heart. True believers, represented by "good trees," will naturally bear good fruit.

5. Matthew 5:16 (NASB)
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
Good works are not only a sign of genuine faith but also a testimony that brings glory to God.

6. 1 John 3:17–18 (NASB)
"But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth."

John stresses that true love, born out of faith, must manifest in action, reflecting the love of God within the believer.

7. Galatians 5:6 (NASB)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

Paul indicates that true faith is active and works through love, proving that faith and works are interconnected.

8. Philippians 2:12–13 (NASB)
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
Believers are called to actively live out their salvation through works that demonstrate God’s transformative power within them.

9. Colossians 1:10 (NASB)
"So that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God."
Paul teaches that living a life worthy of the Lord includes bearing fruit through good works.

10. Hebrews 10:24 (NASB)
"And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds."
The Christian community is urged to encourage one another to practice good works as an expression of their faith.


While salvation is a gift of grace through faith, genuine faith is always accompanied by works that reflect God’s transforming power. Good works are not the basis for salvation, but they are the evidence of a redeemed life. These passages show that a faith devoid of good works is incomplete and contrary to the nature of true Christian living.

Johann.

 

[Studyman]

Excellent, God honoring post here @Studyman--keep up the good work Greg.

Johann.

Thanks Johann.

In the law and Prophets Joshua speaks to the "nations" that God will drive out from before His People. But HE leaves some to test them. And the ones HE does drive out, He does so little by little, not all at once.

I have come to understand that these are representative of our thoughts as we journey through time in our lives. And we all have thoughts that are not from God, beliefs and traditions, doctrines and philosophies that we have all been influenced by since our youth. And if we are truly seeking Him, to know Him from our hearts, HE will expose these thoughts, these deceptions, these untruths as we grow in the knowledge of God, through the instructions of His Christ.

I think its through this process of Seeking Him, that God before ordained, that we become a new person, with a different understanding which is no longer our own, but "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness". I'm convinced that it is the continual SEEKING to know Him in our journey that counts. I think Paul believes this as well.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to "every man" according to his deeds:

7 "To them" who by "patient continuance" in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

May the Spirit of Christ be with us both in our Journey. You keep up the good work.

 

[Johann]

Thanks Johann.

In the law and Prophets Joshua speaks to the "nations" that God will drive out from before His People. But HE leaves some to test them. And the ones HE does drive out, He does so little by little, not all at once.

I have come to understand that these are representative of our thoughts as we journey through time in our lives. And we all have thoughts that are not from God, beliefs and traditions, doctrines and philosophies that we have all been influenced by since our youth. And if we are truly seeking Him, to know Him from our hearts, HE will expose these thoughts, these deceptions, these untruths as we grow in the knowledge of God, through the instructions of His Christ.

I think its through this process of Seeking Him, that God before ordained, that we become a new person, with a different understanding which is no longer our own, but "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness". I'm convinced that it is the continual SEEKING to know Him in our journey that counts. I think Paul believes this as well.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to "every man" according to his deeds:

7 "To them" who by "patient continuance" in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

May the Spirit of Christ be with us both in our Journey. You keep up the good work.

Love this analogy.

Johann.

 

[Studyman]

if you will permit me brother--

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB)
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Paul clarifies that although salvation is by grace, believers are created in Christ to perform good works, demonstrating that they are an integral part of the Christian life.

3. Titus 3:8 (NASB)
"This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."
Paul encourages believers to be diligent in doing good deeds, which are the evidence of a transformed life.

4. Matthew 7:17–18 (NASB)
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Jesus teaches that a person’s character and actions reveal the nature of their heart. True believers, represented by "good trees," will naturally bear good fruit.

5. Matthew 5:16 (NASB)
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
Good works are not only a sign of genuine faith but also a testimony that brings glory to God.

6. 1 John 3:17–18 (NASB)
"But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth."

John stresses that true love, born out of faith, must manifest in action, reflecting the love of God within the believer.

7. Galatians 5:6 (NASB)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

Paul indicates that true faith is active and works through love, proving that faith and works are interconnected.

8. Philippians 2:12–13 (NASB)
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
Believers are called to actively live out their salvation through works that demonstrate God’s transformative power within them.

9. Colossians 1:10 (NASB)
"So that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God."
Paul teaches that living a life worthy of the Lord includes bearing fruit through good works.

10. Hebrews 10:24 (NASB)
"And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds."
The Christian community is urged to encourage one another to practice good works as an expression of their faith.


While salvation is a gift of grace through faith, genuine faith is always accompanied by works that reflect God’s transforming power. Good works are not the basis for salvation, but they are the evidence of a redeemed life. These passages show that a faith devoid of good works is incomplete and contrary to the nature of true Christian living.

Johann.

Very well said.

I would only ADD the importance of not creating, judging or establishing "Good works" according to our vision, or our understanding, or our imagination or the views or philosophies of other voices in the world God placed us in. We all have the Same Holy scriptures, and Paul promoted them as trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. In my understanding, this is where Jesus said to Seek the Righteousness of God, and Paul said this is where God's Righteousness is revealed. In this way, in my understanding, we can find the "Good Works" that "God before ordained" to walk in, and not become like those Christians in Matt. 7:22, 23. Clearly these "Many" engaged in "Good Works", but they were established and ordained as good works by "man", not God.

I think this was part of Paul's message in Ephesians 2. Let me know what you think.

 

[Johann]

Very well said.

I would only ADD the importance of not creating, judging or establishing "Good works" according to our vision, or our understanding, or our imagination or the views or philosophies of other voices in the world God placed us in. We all have the Same Holy scriptures, and Paul promoted them as trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. In my understanding, this is where Jesus said to Seek the Righteousness of God, and Paul said this is where God's Righteousness is revealed. In this way, in my understanding, we can find the "Good Works" that "God before ordained" to walk in, and not become like those Christians in Matt. 7:22, 23. Clearly these "Many" engaged in "Good Works", but they were established and ordained as good works by "man", not God.

I think this was part of Paul's message in Ephesians 2. Let me know what you think.

Later brother 02.11 AM morning here where I am, very tired.

God bless and shalom to you and family.

Johann.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

I would prefer not to engage with you while you Mock God and His instruction in Holiness and Righteousness, right to His Face. I mean, surely you know HE can hear you, Yes? After all, He did say, and Peter acknowledged that His Words were not written for them, but for us, "To be Ye Holy, for I am Holy". Why don't you show us where this is written, instead of Mocking God.

You are free to mock God on your own time, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do so in your replies to me.

Mocking God? NEVER would I, yet you call me mocking God because of what I asked you here:

Studyman, does the word of God oppose me eating a meat lovers pizza, as you think it does? Your rellgion is a mixture bewtween Jehovah Witnesses and SDA, very close! Even though you boast of not being part of today's religious movement, you actually are right in the middle of it.

I had two piece of sausages this morning with one pancake ~ did I sin against my God? You answer that, and let all know who you truly are~ and who they are dealing with.

You, in your self-righteousness requested that I do not mock God in my replies to you...... the man who rejects the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ and the redemption that he as the surety of God's elect secured their eternal salvation by his faith and obedience alone.

Btw, you never address my question, why not, hiding from others what you truly teach? But, your greatest error along with your corrupt work gospel, is your denial of Christ being God manifest in human flesh! A rank heresy that every child of God should flee from.

Well, I disagree with the religion you have adopted based on what is actually written.

Well now, we shall see who's rellgion is based upon "thus saith the LORD God" ~ if I can filter through this mess of yours, where you use scripture out of context, with a shew of false humility, being mindful of what Paul said about folks like you:

Colossians 2:23
“Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.”

Some of the hardest folks to expose, but expose we shall by God's help.

It looks like you might actually post scriptures for discussion and I am always eager to discuss every Scripture. So I will address the rest of your post later.

Okay, let us go to your main post to me, where you just babble on in your self-righteousness, which is all a person has if they reject Jesus' being the surety of God's elect fulfilling the law in their place as far as the free gift of eternal life, Christ securing that for each one of those given to him by his Father to redeem.

I'll address it very soon.

 

[mailmandan]

So obeying your Lord is legalism?

How in the world can you possibly justify obeying your Lord as legalism?

Strawman argument. I never said that obeying the Lord is legalism. I said seeking salvation by works/works righteousness is legalism which is not obeying the Lord. Just as we see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14) Jesus spoke that parable unto certain people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others/looked down on everyone else.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is righteousness.
Disobedience to Jesus Christ is unrighteousness.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is produced from righteousness (1 John 3:7) and continued disobedience to Jesus Christ is produced from unrighteousness. (1 John 3:8) We see a further contrast between children of God (those who are righteous) and children of the devil (those who are unrighteous) in regard to obedience and disobedience in (1 John 3:9-10).

Do you understand this? Please brother, tell me you understand this.

I understand this. Do you understand the very heart of the issue between righteousness and unrighteousness?

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, which is 'descriptive' of genuine believers/the righteous. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is 'descriptive' of unbelievers/the unrighteous.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

Obeying our Lord is the definition of love; loving God and loving our neighbor.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

Please be reasonable.

1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Obeying the Lord is the demonstrative evidence of loving God and loving our neighbor. I am being reasonable.

Don’t you love our Lord?

Don’t you love His people?

Absolutely! (Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:7,16,19)

Loving the Lord and loving people is not legalism.

Loving the Lord and loving people from a regenerate heart is not legalism. Works salvation/works-righteousness/self-righteousness is legalism.

 

[GodsGrace]

This seems a bit presumptuous.

Where did Jesus instruct us to stop trying to understand Greek?

Right.
There's a lot of things Jesus said not to do that we shouldn't do.

He most probably spoke some Koine Greek Himself,,,living where He did.
But we know for sure that Paul spoke it fluently and maybe Luke.
The others were translated into Greek, but 2 thousand years is a long time
and Strong's and other material is not the same as knowing the language.

For instance,,,there might be 2 or 3 meanings for the same word.
We'll always tend to pick the meaning that most suits us at the time.
I find that the words of Jesus are simple and easy to understand...He wanted
to make sure that He was understood.

Just an observance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Strawman argument. I never said that obeying the Lord is legalism. I said seeking salvation by works/works righteousness is legalism which is not obeying the Lord.

Strawman.

WHO ever said that we are saved by works??

Why do you not admit that you do not believe obeying Jesus is important.
Why do you not admit that you believe that obeying Jesus is WORKS SALVATION.

NO ONE is saved by their works.

Is the following work??

Matthew 24:44-46
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.



Matthew 25:35-40
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'


You could either state that we are to OBEY Jesus...
or
You could write a whole post explaining why it does not mean this.
(as you usually do).

Your choice.

Just as we see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14) Jesus spoke that parable unto certain people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others/looked down on everyone else.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is produced from righteousness (1 John 3:7) and continued disobedience to Jesus Christ is produced from unrighteousness. (1 John 3:8) We see a further contrast between children of God (those who are righteous) and children of the devil (those who are unrighteous) in regard to obedience and disobedience in (1 John 3:9-10).

I understand this. Do you understand the very heart of the issue between righteousness and unrighteousness?

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, which is 'descriptive' of genuine believers/the righteous. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is 'descriptive' of unbelievers/the unrighteous.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Obeying the Lord is the demonstrative evidence of loving God and loving our neighbor. I am being reasonable.

Absolutely! (Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:7,16,19)

Loving the Lord and loving people from a regenerate heart is not legalism. Works salvation/works-righteousness/self-righteousness is legalism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great Post.

I might add if I may, "Not of (MAN'S) works, lest "any man" should boast. It seems quite clear that God partook of a Great work, all manner of Works, untold Works, to provide such Grace, Faith and Salvation to mere humans. Just not the "works" of men". And for what purpose?

"For we (Those who have Yielded themselves to God, and their body as instruments of Righteousness unto God) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God "hath before ordained" that we should walk in them.

Amen Studyman.

No one is saved by their works but by the grace of God who created us and wishes that all men be saved.

You've stated an excellent verse: Man is created for good works. That we should walk in them.

Now....WHY so many so called Christians will fight tooth and nail against works is a mystery to me.
This is what Jesus taught for over 3 years.

If good works/deeds were not necessary in our life....it would not have taken over 3 years to teach the Apostles what they were to then pass on to others and, ultimately, to us.

 

[Dizerner]

There's a lot of things Jesus said not to do that we shouldn't do.

Thanks, I had no idea.

2 thousand years is a long time

Good insight.

and Strong's and other material is not the same as knowing the language.

Not everyone here relies on Strong's.

Just an observance.

Look, I get someone can feel insecure if they don't know much. We can know basic truths simply by the Spirit. But it also can be a way to refine our understanding in more depth and accuracy to study the original languages, and hope the Spirit uses that as well to clarify truths to peoples' hearts. I don't think Jesus commanded us not to study the ancient languages of Scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

yadda yadda.
Same ole' stuff.

If you're going to TEACH, you need a PhD...
or
hop on the bus with the rest of us and don't ASSUME that YOU have the NT right and everyone else is wrong.

What pride !

YOU state that others don't know the NT, as if only YOU do...
but then you tell ME that I'M insulting??

And you're still trying to prove that IN ME is somehow meaning that the person is not saved?

Because the Covenant was not yet fully established?



Yes. Funny stuff I hear on these Forums.
We'll answer to God one day.
This I know for sure.

And YOUR teachings will surely lead some straight to hell.

I highly suggest that those reading along that may be in doubt,
to read the bible for themselves and heed what JESUS taught
and the teachings and warnings of the other writers who knew Jesus
and knew what HE taught them for years.

When did I say that EVERYONE else is wrong? Another strawman argument. You seem to feed on contention. Pride is found in works-righteousness and it's those who teach a works-based false gospel that will surely lead some straight to hell. My teachings uphold the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) I am not of those who trust in their own righteousness. (Luke 18:9-14; Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9)

It's not up to me to prove anything to you. Only the Lord can open people's hearts and eyes to the truth. Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists would certainly agree with your interpretation, which remains a red flag. Besides AT Robertson, there are multiple other Christians who believe the fruitless branches were not saved either, using the same reasoning after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, so laugh it up all you want and believe as you may. I know what I believe, and you will never convince me otherwise.

Jesus knows that a good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit, and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matthew 7:17-20) Jesus also knows the difference between a true disciple and a devil. (John 6:70-71) Something to consider when we read John 15. The evidence of spiritual life is good fruit. The evidence of no spiritual life is no good fruit. Jesus only mentions two kinds of branches in John 15:2. Branches that bear no fruit (mark of no spiritual life) and branches that bear fruit. (mark of spiritual life) Being self-attached to the vine is still in the vine but lacks a spiritual and vital connection. This is where we need to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

 

[mailmandan]

Strawman.

WHO ever said that we are saved by works??

You did. You have stated before that good works are required to maintain our salvation along with THESE works/obedience are the means by which we receive eternal life.

Good works are required to maintain your salvation and I've posted MANY verses and scriptural evidence
which you deny.

Yes....we are required to acts of obedience/works which FOLLOW believing in the Son...
YES

THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life.

Why do you not admit that you do not believe obeying Jesus is important.

When did I ever say that obeying Jesus is not important? Obeying Jesus is important, but you could never obey Jesus sufficiently enough to earn your way to heaven. That has been my point all along.

Why do you not admit that you believe that obeying Jesus is WORKS SALVATION.

Obeying Jesus by choosing to believe in Him (John 3:36) is not works salvation. Seeking salvation by works is works salvation.

NO ONE is saved by their works.

Sugar coated double talk. Previously, you said - Good works are required to maintain your salvation and THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life. You can't have it both ways.

Is the following work??

Sure, these are works yet Jesus was not teaching salvation by works.

Matthew 24:44-46
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

Matthew 25:35-40
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

You could either state that we are to OBEY Jesus...
or
You could write a whole post explaining why it does not mean this.
(as you usually do).

Your choice.

Jesus will divide the sheep (those who obey Him) from the goats (those who do not obey Him). After a casual reading of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25, one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture/scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc...

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

So, it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life. (James 2:14) Notice also how practicing righteousness and love for his brother is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Works-salvationists have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

 

[mailmandan]

Self-attached branches? Please tell us how "not genuine believers" possess the spiritual power to spiritually "self-attach" themselves to the spiritual Vine that is Jesus.

If the attachment was spiritual, then those branches would have produced fruit. Hence, self-attached. Only a spiritual and vital attachment to the vine results in producing fruit. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Mocking God? NEVER would I, yet you call me mocking God because of what I asked you here:

You, in your self-righteousness requested that I do not mock God in my replies to you...... the man who rejects the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ and the redemption that he as the surety of God's elect secured their eternal salvation by his faith and obedience alone.

Btw, you never address my question, why not, hiding from others what you truly teach? But, your greatest error along with your corrupt work gospel, is your denial of Christ being God manifest in human flesh! A rank heresy that every child of God should flee from.

Well now, we shall see who's rellgion is based upon "thus saith the LORD God" ~ if I can filter through this mess of yours, where you use scripture out of context, with a shew of false humility, being mindful of what Paul said about folks like you:

Your self exaltation notwithstanding, you are free to feed yourself and feed your children and grandchildren blood, or maggots or swine's flesh, or whatever your flesh desires to feed them, and brag about it on this forum. I no longer care. I have come to expect nothing more from you.

But we both know that if the Jesus "of the Bible" came to your house in all HIS Glory and Power, with His Army of Angels, for breakfast, you wouldn't offer HIM sausage and pancakes.

Colossians 2:23
“Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.”

Some of the hardest folks to expose, but expose we shall by God's help.

Your signature move is to take one verse out of the Bible, and twist it to justify your rejection of whichever of God's Righteousness that you despise. You did it here again. Not that it matters to you, because it doesn't. But for those reading along, look at what Paul was really saying in Col. 2.

Col. 2: 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments "of the world", why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; after the "commandments and doctrines of men"? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Are we not all subject to ordinances of the God and Father of the Lord's Christ? Didn't Jesus say to Live by God's Words?

Paul is speaking about the Commandments "of men", not the Commandments "of God".

Jesus speaks to these same "commandments of men"

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments "of men". 8 For "laying aside" the commandment "of God", ye hold the tradition "of men", as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment "of God", that ye may keep your own tradition. (Command of men)

Clearly the Kingdom of God is more than food and drink, and these things are the very "Milk" of the Word to be sure, in my view. But the reality is, we humans have need of food and drink, and like Jesus said, God knows we have need of food and drink. He told me not to fret however, rather, that I should Seek first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, and all these things, like, "what to eat" and "what to drink" and so on, will be added unto me. (Matt. 6)

I wouldn't have even known to Abstain from eating blood, snails or swine's flesh etc., unless God's Law had said, "ye shall not eat of their flesh".

You know this Red, but you reject it, and you justify your rejection by posting ONE verse, and then lying about it, as if the "Commandment to Abstain from drinking blood, or eating maggots, slugs or swine's flesh, is a "Commandment of men". and NOT a Commandment of God.

Doers it matter to God? Is it a big deal? I guess each person needs to work that out "with fear and trembling".

What I am doing here, is exposing the lie being peddled by the promoters of this world's religious system, that the Commandment to Abstain from drinking blood, and eating maggots or swine's flesh, etc., is NOT a commandment of men, or Rudiment of this world, as Red is falsely promoting here. It is a Commandment of God that Jesus, all the Apostles, the first Church under God's New High Priest, and the New Gentile converts were instructed to, walked in.

This is undeniable Biblical Truth. That's all I'm saying.

Okay, let us go to your main post to me, where you just babble on in your self-righteousness, which is all a person has if they reject Jesus' being the surety of God's elect fulfilling the law in their place as far as the free gift of eternal life, Christ securing that for each one of those given to him by his Father to redeem.

I'll address it very soon.

I would prefer you rectify the falsehood you are promoting about Ephesians 2, before you continue with the falsehoods you are promoting about Acts 15.

 

[mailmandan]

I respect A.T. Robertson's work. But all men are susceptible to their own bias, and Robertson's Baptist affiliation is no exception.

Robertson did not, and I repeat emphatically here, did NOT come to this conclusion from Greek grammar and syntax.

This passage says nothing about "two kinds of connections" that is total eisegesis and completely read in to impose the presupposition of OSAS he already held.

In fact, the passage itself makes a big point of describing all branches as IN CHRIST and on an equal starting field.

Should I believe you or a Greek scholar when it comes to Greek grammar and syntax? I'll go with AT Robertson. There are obviously two kinds of connections with the vine because one branch bears no fruit and the other branch bears fruit. We see throughout scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life, and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear or don't bear. When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, this was prior to Him being glorified, (John 7:38-39) so believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit and were not yet baptized by one Spirit into one body - "the body of Christ." (1 Corinthians 12:13) So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. All men (including yourself) are susceptible to their own bias and eisegesis. Your bias against OSAS reflects that.

 

[synergy]

If the attachment was spiritual,

The Vine Parable is a spiritual depiction of our relationship with Jesus. So then everything mentioned in this parable is what happens spiritually.

then those branches would have produced fruit. Hence, self-attached. Only a spiritual and vital attachment to the vine results in producing fruit. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

So where does this self attaching branch derive its spiritual power to self attach itself to the Spiritual Vine?

 

[Studyman]

Amen Studyman.

No one is saved by their works but by the grace of God who created us and wishes that all men be saved.

You've stated an excellent verse: Man is created for good works. That we should walk in them.

Now....WHY so many so called Christians will fight tooth and nail against works is a mystery to me.
This is what Jesus taught for over 3 years.

If good works/deeds were not necessary in our life....it would not have taken over 3 years to teach the Apostles what they were to then pass on to others and, ultimately, to us.

That is a very excellent and relevant point. But as to the mystery you speak of, I think perhaps Paul also sheds some light on that, if I may, I would share my understanding of it.

Romans 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things "of the flesh"; but they that are after the Spirit (Do mind) the things "of the Spirit".

To me, the "things of the flesh" would mean to submit myself to the "rudiments of the world", natural human wants desires, and my definition of what is good, holy and righteous. But to mind the "things of the Spirit", would be to submit myself to to God's will, and rule over my "natural human wants desires, and my definition of what is good, holy and righteous" and yield myself instead to God and His Righteousness. I believe this because it is written that God is Spirit, and God's Word, Law, Righteousness is also Spirit. So then, if a man is walking in the Spirit, he is walking in the Word of God, "Who became Flesh".

So to walk in the traditions and rudiments of this world is minding things after the flesh, to be carnally minded. But to walk in the Righteousness of God, as Jesus did, is minding the things of the Spirit, or be Spiritually minded. So Paul continues.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Not the peace of this world)

Here is the part about the mystery you spoke to, in my view.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Anyway, this came to my mind when you mentioned the word mystery regarding why so many "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", refuse to walk in the "Good Works" God before ordained that men should walk in them.

 

[mailmandan]

So then where does this self attaching branch derive its spiritual power to self attach itself to the Vine?

You are missing the point. It's not about power to attach but power from the proper connection. Based on outward appearances, it may be difficult to tell genuine believers (connected in vital unity with Christ as the vine) from those who have merely attached themselves to Christ as the vine. Time will tell the difference, because the genuine believer attached to the vine has a spiritual and vital connection with the vine which results in bearing fruit.

A false professor (nominal Christian) may appear to have the same connection but does not bear fruit, and it’s the lack of fruit that shows a branch is not receiving the fruit-bearing energy that comes from a spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine. Apart from Christ we can do nothing. Regardless of how attached this branch may appear to be on the surface, it's lacking the one absolute evidence of a spiritual and vital attachment - fruit.