Excellent Discussion on OSAS

There are many more verses than the ones you've posted that support, without the shadow of a doubt, that salvation can be forfeited.

Now, why it bothers so many, only they can know.

I would suggest to those persons that they obey Jesus and do as HE intructed and stop trying to understand Greek.

Which no one here does.

Those that understand Greek do NOT post on forums.
It's ironic that you would ask me to provide an exegesis using English verses and then make a statement that contradicts that request.

J.
 
I prefer to stick to what Scripture teaches rather than your perspective, sorella, and besides, you're going off topic.

J.
Ah.

Kind of difficult when presented with scripture.

We're discussing the loss of salvation here.

Unable to reply to the teachings of PETER, PAUL AND JESUS?

I'm right on topic.

It is YOU that is unable to respond.

You asked me to prove you wrong...
I DID.

So, you are proved WRONG.

As is anyone who believes in OSAS...
because it is NOT taught in the NT...
by ANYONE.
 
Ah.

Kind of difficult when presented with scripture.

We're discussing the loss of salvation here.

Unable to reply to the teachings of PETER, PAUL AND JESUS?

I'm right on topic.

It is YOU that is unable to respond.

You asked me to prove you wrong...
I DID.

So, you are proved WRONG.

As is anyone who believes in OSAS...
because it is NOT taught in the NT...
by ANYONE.
Kindly step aside, for the moment, I need @Dizerner's source and refute him.

J.
 
I don't TEACH the gospel.
You come here to TEACH the gospel?
You have a PhD after your name?

Where is the insult in my post?
Please post it.
Sarcasm...yes...
Strawman...no...where is the strawman argument?
Please post it.

I promote legalism?
OBEYING JESUS IS LEGALISM?
Then YES....I practice legalism.
As should everyone.

And you posted these sentences of mine:
"Good works are required to maintain your salvation.."

"THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life."

Thanks.....yes. They are 100% CORRECT and mirror
John 15:1-2 no matter what YOU believe.

Jesus Is the Vine--Followers Are Branches​

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


I kept the title in the NASB because it might be useful to you.
JESUS IS THE VINE...FOLLOWERS ARE THE BRANCHES.

Indeed, THIS is what Jesus is teaching.

You can dance around this all you want to...
but this is what JESUS IS TEACHING....

JESUS IS THE VINE.
EVERY BRANCH IN THE VINE...IN JESUS (A SAVED PERSON)
THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT (THAT IS NOT DOING GOOD WORKS)
IS TAKEN AWAY.

I prefer Jesus over Robertson.

JESUS said that the branches IN HIM that do not produce fruit
will be TAKEN AWAY....CUT OFF....SEVERED.

AND,,,,not only that...but look:
God prunes the branches that DO GOOD WORKS,,,
so that they can do even more!

Interpret that as you will....
JESUS WAS A GOOD COMMUNICATOR...
He said what He meant...
and meant what He said.
You don't need a PHD in order to teach people about the gospel message. I have always enjoyed sharing the gospel with others since my conversion several years ago. Since then my wife and son along with multiple family members have come to believe the gospel. See, no PHD required. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES. (Romans 1:16)

Same old wise cracks from you below:

Copy and paste.

Same ole' stuff.

Same ole' mistakes.

Have you nothing NEW to say?

You need some guy named Robertson to explain to you what that means?

Maybe we could stop reading men's words and start HEARING what JESUS says??

That would be nice.

I prefer Jesus over Robertson


Like I said, sarcasm, insults, strawman arguments. Nothing new from you.

Obeying Jesus after we have been saved through faith is not legalism but seeking to obtain and/or maintain salvation by works is legalism. Works salvation is no salvation at all. (Romans 3:24-38; 4:4-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Be sure to go back and read post #434 again. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Again, when Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

AT Robertson gets it and his commentary was spot on. (y)
 
Kindly step aside, for the moment, I need @Dizerner's source and refute him.

J.
Step aside?

Do you OWN this forum?
YOU make the rules?

Funny stuff.

What source do you need from @Dizerner ??

He gave you 7 verses straight from the NT.....

Can't handle two posters at the same time?
I've handled 3 and more regarding this topic.

Do you know why?
Because the NT DOES NOT teach OSAS.

And it's incredibly easy to prove.
 
You don't need a PHD in order to teach people about the gospel message. I have always enjoyed sharing the gospel with others since my conversion several years ago. Since then my wife and son along with multiple family members have come to believe the gospel. See, no PHD required. The word of God is powerful.

Same old wise cracks from you below:

Copy and paste.

Same ole' stuff.

Same ole' mistakes.

Have you nothing NEW to say?

You need some guy named Robertson to explain to you what that means?

Maybe we could stop reading men's words and start HEARING what JESUS says??

That would be nice.

I prefer Jesus over Robertson


Like I said, sarcasm, insults, strawman arguments. Nothing new from you.

Obeying Jesus after we have been saved through faith is not legalism but seeking to obtain and/or maintain salvation by works is legalism. Works salvation is no salvation at all. (Romans 3:24-38; 4:4-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Be sure to go back and read post #434 again. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Again, when Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

AT Robertson gets it and his commentary was spot on. (y)
yadda yadda.
Same ole' stuff.

If you're going to TEACH, you need a PhD...
or
hop on the bus with the rest of us and don't ASSUME that YOU have the NT right and everyone else is wrong.

What pride !

YOU state that others don't know the NT, as if only YOU do...
but then you tell ME that I'M insulting??

And you're still trying to prove that IN ME is somehow meaning that the person is not saved?

Because the Covenant was not yet fully established?

:ROFLMAO:

Yes. Funny stuff I hear on these Forums.
We'll answer to God one day.
This I know for sure.

And YOUR teachings will surely lead some straight to hell.

I highly suggest that those reading along that may be in doubt,
to read the bible for themselves and heed what JESUS taught
and the teachings and warnings of the other writers who knew Jesus
and knew what HE taught them for years.
 
yadda yadda.
Same ole' stuff.

If you're going to TEACH, you need a PhD...
or
hop on the bus with the rest of us and don't ASSUME that YOU have the NT right and everyone else is wrong.

What pride !

YOU state that others don't know the NT, as if only YOU do...
but then you tell ME that I'M insulting??

And you're still trying to prove that IN ME is somehow meaning that the person is not saved?

Because the Covenant was not yet fully established?

:ROFLMAO:

Yes. Funny stuff I hear on these Forums.
We'll answer to God one day.
This I know for sure.

And YOUR teachings will surely lead some straight to hell.

I highly suggest that those reading along that may be in doubt,
to read the bible for themselves and heed what JESUS taught
and the teachings and warnings of the other writers who knew Jesus
and knew what HE taught them for years.
Correct... pride is on full display here, with no reverential fear of the Scriptures.

J.
 
do as HE intructed and stop trying to understand Greek.

Which no one here does. Those that understand Greek do NOT post on forums.

This seems a bit presumptuous.

Where did Jesus instruct us to stop trying to understand Greek?
 
This seems a bit presumptuous.

Where did Jesus instruct us to stop trying to understand Greek?
Nicely done... now I just need to know your source, please, @Dizerner. Since I’m referencing Wallace's Basics of Greek Grammar, I believe it’s important to address this as mature adults, with respect.

Thanks.

J.
 
This isn’t the source you quoted from, @Dizerner—it's a video clip. I’m asking for the source of your post to me so we can go through it properly.

We can also discuss the so-called “outdated Greek” that this person is mentioning.

I have more advanced sources than Wallace, so let’s be honest with each other and remain truthful to the written Scriptures... Perfect tense.

Furthermore--



Koine Greek is the historical form of the Greek language used from approximately 300 BCE to 300 CE, encompassing the language of the New Testament, the Septuagint, and various early Christian writings. While it is no longer a spoken vernacular, its grammar and vocabulary remain relevant and essential for biblical scholarship, historical studies, and understanding ancient texts.

The claim that Koine Greek is outdated often stems from a misunderstanding.


Languages evolve over time, and while Modern Greek differs significantly from Koine, this does not render Koine irrelevant or obsolete.

Scholars continue to study and analyze Koine Greek precisely because it was the lingua franca of the early Christian era and crucial to understanding the New Testament in its original context.

Furthermore, reputable grammars such as Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics and the works of A.T. Robertson remain indispensable for exegesis and theological studies.

The notion of "outdated Greek" typically reflects either a lack of understanding of linguistic history or an attempt to undermine traditional interpretations grounded in the original language.

Refuted--now, your source please.

Johann.
 
I think whatever God seals stays sealed for as long as He wants.

and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us. 2 Corinthians 1:22

He promised to never leave or forsake us.
 
Refuted--now, your source please.

You do not understand what a refutation is.

It's not a bald assertion.

You give no evidence at all, you just "assert" that Koine Greek is perfectly understood by grammarians, when in fact they make mistakes and learn over time.

My "source" is the Greek New Testament.

You can look all those verses up for yourself.
 
He promised to never leave or forsake us.

You apply context to that promise.

You don't apply it universally, or God would never leave or forsake any human being ever.
 
When we are His.

A comforting promise in Scripture is that God will never leave those who are His. Hebrews 13:5 says, in part, “He Himself has said, ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you’” (NKJV). In a world that is constantly changing and where people are constantly leaving, whether in a family, relationship, or in death, God’s promise of never leaving is encouraging.

The promise “I will never leave you nor forsake you” was first given to Israel and Joshua before entering the Promised Land (Deuteronomy 31:6). Encouragingly, Moses reminded Joshua that, as the succeeding leader, “the Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged” (Deuteronomy 31:8). Joshua’s task of taking the Promised Land seemed impossible, but with the Lord the task was possible, for He would not forsake Joshua.

Many other verses in the Old Testament include similar statements from God to individuals with the promise to never leave them. These individuals include

• Jacob (Genesis 28:15)
• Joshua (Deuteronomy 31:8; Joshua 1:5, 9)
• Solomon (1 Chronicles 28:20)
• The poor and needy (Isaiah 41:17)

In the New Testament, quoting from Deuteronomy 31:6, the author of Hebrews restates the promise of God’s eternal presence with believers (Hebrews 13:5). The promise is preceded by a command: “Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have.” Instead of trusting in riches or material goods, which will ultimately fail, believers should place their hope in God, who promises, “I will never leave you and I will never abandon you” (NET). Riches and other resources can depart in a moment, but the Lord is with His children forever. One’s faith and trust, therefore, should be in Him alone.

Never will I leave you. At salvation, Christians are permanently indwelt with the Holy Spirit, who is God Himself (Acts 5:3–4). Christ affirmed that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, would be with His followers always (John 14:16). Also, Jesus told His disciples that He would be with them “to the very end of the age”—a promise that has to include present-day believers (Matthew 28:20). The God who promised to never leave Joshua is the same Lord who says He will never leave believers today.

Never will I forsake you. Some versions translate Hebrews 13:5 as God’s promise not to “abandon” (CSB) or “desert” (CEV) us. Within the meaning of the Greek word enkatalipō is the idea of being completely abandoned or left alone (Strong’s Concordance 1459). Believers have the wonderful promise that God will never forsake them. Jesus felt utterly forsaken by the Father when He took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross, and now those who trust in Him will not be abandoned in their sinful state (Matthew 27:46). He became a “curse” to free people from their slavery to sin in order that those who place faith in His death and resurrection would receive forgiveness and eternal life (see 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:13–14). A 1999 worship song written by Billy James Foote, called “You Are My King (Amazing Love),” describes this concept well: “I’m forgiven because you were forsaken” (from Hymnary.org, accessed 11/12/20).

God’s eternal promise that He will never leave or forsake believers is not only comforting, but also provides courage to followers of Christ. Because God will never leave or forsake His children, they can live unafraid. Hebrews 13:6 follows God’s promise with the statement, “Hence we can confidently say, ‘The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can anyone do to me?’” (ISV). Essentially, this is a quote from Psalm 118:6–7, which portrays God as the Helper who protects His chosen people. Like Joshua being encouraged to complete his appointed task, Christians can also be emboldened and strengthened by the promise that the Lord will never leave or forsake them.

GOT?
 
Studyman, you are one confused person. You said: "It was Paul, Peter and the Apostles who told the Gentiles in Acts 15, "To Abstain" from certain traditions that were contrary to God's Law given to men through Moses. And this was years after Jesus ascended to His Father."
That's NOT why the first church counsel was held, it was held to answer the false teachings of men like you, and @GodsGrace, and other here, and it is this:

Acts 15:1​

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

So you believe the Apostles were teaching against God's Laws, but the men from Judaea who stoned Stephen to death, were obeying God's Laws, and trying to get the Gentiles to obey God? I have heard of this preaching for years, but Acts 15 itself, exposes it as foolishness.

Acts 15: 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

So why did God give the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. Shall I not Seek God's Truth for this answer?

Acts 5: 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. (These would be the Pharisees and men who came down from Judea, Yes?)

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. (But the High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem was there. Wasn't he "Obeying God"? Or was Jesus actually right about them?)

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them "that obey him".

In the past, you would hide from my questions, ignore them, refuse to answer them. We will see if you are the same preacher or not.

Do you believe the "men from Judea, and the Pharisees" were filled with the Holy spirit like the apostles and the Gentiles that turned to God?

And that God "put no difference between us and them, (Pharisees and men from Judea) purifying their hearts by faith."

I don't think they had the same spirit on them that the Apostles did. This is why I don't agree with this world's religious system concerning Acts 15 that you are peddling. And when I raise these prudent and relevant questions, the promoters of this world's religions run and hide so they don't have to give the answer they know is true, exposing their own selves as false teachers.

And here is the kicker.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

I know you and "many" other promoters of this world's religious system, "Who come in Christ's Name" have preached for years that this is talking about God placing HIS impossible to obey Laws on the necks of men who trusted Him. Every on this forum has been taught from their youth, that this is speaking to the insidious Lie that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted and followed Him. Then you imply in your religious philosophy that God lied to these men, and told them they could obey these impossible to obey Laws, then HE killed them by the thousands when they didn't, so Jesus had to come and straighten His Father out, and destroy God's Laws.

This is one of the most insidious, wicked and evil lies promoted by this world's religions ever to be perpetrated.

When the truth is so simple and easy to understand that even a child can see, that the "Yoke of Bondage", impossible to bear, was the Commandments of men these children of the devil promoted, which made those who walked in the "Transgressors of God's Law. And it isn't me who said it, it is the Jesus "of the Bible".

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

But here comes Red Baker, trying to convince others that all the sudden, out of nowhere with absolutely ZERO Biblical evidence, these "children of the devil" who didn't have the Holy Spirit, who despised God's Commandments, polluted His sabbaths and rejected His Judgments, teaching instead for doctrines, "The commandments of men", Not God through Moses, were now trying to get the New Converts to obey God's Laws.

I showed you this years ago, and you mocked me then too. And no doubt you will do so again.

But for those reading along, can you not see what really happened? The Apostles were not trying to keep the Gentile converts who turned to God away from God's Laws. They kept the New Converts away from the traditions and philosophies of the mainstream religions of that time. That was the Yoke Peter spoke of. Jesus spoke of the same Yoke.

Matt. 23: 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat (reading Moses every Sabbath Day)

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after "their works": for they say (They teach the Law of Moses), and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees, men of Judaea) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This is the Yoke Peter spoke of.

Instead, they told the Gentile Converts that turned to God, to abstain from disobeying God in a few areas common with them, knowing they would learn the rest when they obeyed Jesus and "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness", and became "Learned of the Father".
 
You do not understand what a refutation is.

It's not a bald assertion.

You give no evidence at all, you just "assert" that Koine Greek is perfectly understood by grammarians, when in fact they make mistakes and learn over time.

My "source" is the Greek New Testament.

You can look all those verses up for yourself.
I’m well acquainted with refutations and rebuttals, @Dizerner, but since you are unwilling to share your source, I will stand on what is biblically accurate, and my post remains--Perfect tense.

Some are playing fast and loose with the Scriptures, failing to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

Also, @mailmandan is completely sound biblically, and these online mockeries and ad hominem attacks against an individual should be set aside, as they do not build up or edify anyone (Ephesians 4:29).

If you believe you can lose your salvation, that’s your decision... I’m not going to stop you. But don’t sit in judgment on me for affirming that salvation in Christ is a present and irrevocable reality (Romans 8:38–39).

Right?

J.
 
Ahar,,,,,Ephesians 2:8 lists 3 gifts.
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

Are you forced to accept any of those 3 gifts??

Great Post.

I might add if I may, "Not of (MAN'S) works, lest "any man" should boast. It seems quite clear that God partook of a Great work, all manner of Works, untold Works, to provide such Grace, Faith and Salvation to mere humans. Just not the "works" of men". And for what purpose?

"For we (Those who have Yielded themselves to God, and their body as instruments of Righteousness unto God) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God "hath before ordained" that we should walk in them.
 
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