Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

This is the undeniable Biblical Truth. The issue is, there are "many" who preach this, but by their "works" (preaching, lifestyle, etc.) it becomes clear that they don't really believe this.

Agreed

I find that in many cases, that it's the Scriptures that "Adamantly" oppose your preaching.

Studyman, or GB, your former name at Grace Centered, you and I have been around and around and generally you leave off after you have posted the same old arguments many times over, as I have said before that your bible knowledge is very limited to a certain portion/topics of God's word, getting you away from those, means that you generally high tail for the mountains, until every thing dies off ~ here you come again, saying the same old words over and over again, preaching the same lies as before.

Studyman, does the word of God oppose me eating a meat lovers pizza, as you think it does? Your rellgion is a mixture bewtween Jehovah Witnesses and SDA, very close! Even though you boast of not being part of today's religious movement, you actually are right in the middle of it.

I had two piece of sausages this morning with one pancake ~ did I sin against my God? You answer that, and let all know who you truly are~ and who they are dealing with.

Perhaps maybe a little humility, and self reflection is in order for you.

Before the God of heaven, I love more humility, seeing pride lives in my flesh, a sin that I hate, but it IS THERE for sure.

It is God's Inspired Word that says over and over, that HE judges men according to their "Works".

Studyman, I AGREE, yet our works have not one iota to do with anyone inheriting eternal life, eternal life was secured for God's elect by Jesus Christ alone, period. The Gospel is the power of God ~WHY? because therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith! The gospel shouts.....GRACE, GRACE to the sinner by Jesus Christ securing a righteousness for God's elect that they could not provide for themselves before God's law in order to enter into eternal life. If the gospel is preached as it should be preached, then no one who even think they they could contribute one thing in order for God to impart eternal life to them ~ eternal life is a free gift given to the elect sinner on the behalf of what Christ did for him. Add one thing to that and you are preaching a gospel based on WORKS. God has pronounced a curse upon all that preaches another gospel.

It was Paul, Peter and the Apostles who told the Gentiles in Acts 15, "To Abstain" from certain traditions that were contrary to God's Law given to men through Moses. And this was years after Jesus ascended to His Father. I don't mean the Laws of the Pharisees, like not eating bread with hands that have not been washed a certain way. That is not a Law of God at all, but the commandments of men that the Pharisees called "The Law of Moses", "and many other such things they did". Yes, they were trying to promote their traditions, many of which transgressed God's commandments, onto the Gentiles in Acts 15. But their law had been a Yoke of bondage they placed on the necks of men for centuries, and even the Apostles couldn't bear them.

But apparently the Gentiles in Acts 15, who had turned to God, engaged in traditional practices that were considered Sin according to God. These included pollution of idols, fornication, drinking blood, and eating animals strangled. Perhaps they engaged in the practice of hanging live chickens by the neck until they were strangled, not draining the blood, as per God's Law, but it wasn't detailed. Here is what the Apostles taught these Gentiles.

Studyman, you are one confused person. You said: "It was Paul, Peter and the Apostles who told the Gentiles in Acts 15, "To Abstain" from certain traditions that were contrary to God's Law given to men through Moses. And this was years after Jesus ascended to His Father."
That's NOT why the first church counsel was held, it was held to answer the false teachings of men like you, and @GodsGrace, and other here, and it is this:

Acts 15:1​

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Sound so much like men in our day, that wants to add WORKS to salvation from sin and condemnation. (WORKS DO FOLLOW, but not the means thereof, let us be clear with this point.) Men think you must do this, that and the other before you can be saved from your sins; they do not preach that Jesus Christ alone SECURED eternal life for his chosen people. You said again:

"Yes, they were trying to promote their traditions, many of which transgressed God's commandments, onto the Gentiles in Acts 15. But their law had been a Yoke of bondage they placed on the necks of men for centuries, and even the Apostles couldn't bear them."
Studyman, this is what you and folks like @GodsGrace are doing! Any works that you teach that a man must do, in order to be born again and do in order to keep his salvation ~ you are doing just what the church came together to discuss and they they so adamantly rejected, which proves they would also reject your teaching.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses) 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

So it's easy for GG and others to see that what you preach, that God's Laws are only for men of a certain DNA, and what the Apostles actually taught to the Gentiles in Acts 15, are two completely different gospels.

Very deceitful are you with your words. There are certain parts of the OT that were strictly for the Jews only, mainly their dietaries laws, and many other such laws ~ the law as far as the rule of life that is contain in the ten commandments are ever enforce as ~ a rule to live by, not in order to obtain life but as the highest standard of righteousness any one could have to live by. Christians delight in the law of God, and to them is it spiritual, good, just. But, it also show us just how corrupt we are by nature, that is in our natural flesh, we know dwelleth no good thing, no, not one based upon God's spiritual law.

But by your "Works", (preaching) it is clear you don't really believe, nor do you practice what you preach.

You know Studyman, one can be saved, yet in error on certain biblical truths, but how do you know that I do not practice what I preach? You have never seen me, nor do you know me personally. Now, no problem of you judging my teachings and to determine if I'm preach the true gospel of Christ, that I can and must live with. I have judge your teaching to be not of God, not even close.

Who am I to argue or rebel against the Lord's Christ.

Then accept such scriptures as:

Matthew 11:25-27​

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”

 

[Jay]

Did you know the term sealed is used various ways in the New Testament. In Matthew 27:66 we read that Jesus’ tomb was sealed by the Romans. In Revelation we are told that Satan will be sealed in the abyss for one thousand years.

There are several references to books that were sealed in Rev. 6.

1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say, as with a voice of thunder, “Come!” 2 And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

3 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 And out came another horse, bright red; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that men should slay one another; and he was given a great sword.
5 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and its rider had a balance in his hand; 6 and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm oil and wine!”

7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; 14 the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?” Rev. 6:1–17

We can also read that during the Tribulation God will place a seal on 144,000 people from the tribe of Israel as shown in Rev. 7.

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, 5 twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand of the tribe of Gad, 6 twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand of the tribe of Manasseh, 7 twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand of the tribe of Issachar, 8 twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Benjamin.

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


In every case the term sealed carried with it the ideas of protection and security. To seal something, whether it was a document or a tomb, was to close it off from outside influences and interferences.

That is still true today. We seal windows and doors to keep the wind out. We seal letters to keep everyone out except the addressee. We seal our basements to keep water out. We even put a seal on our furniture to keep the dust from getting into the pores of the wood.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Of course you did not ~I said that it is THEN that God has ordained to separate branches that PROFESS to be IN HIM, yet failed to produce the fruits of the Spirit ~ so, regardless how you desire to danced around what I have said, it is biblically true, they BOTH live in the profess kingdom of heaven "until" that day, and THEN God will sent forth his elect angels to separate the wicked from among the just, made so by grace alone on the behalf of Jesus' redemption work, in spite of your hatred for that truth of the scriptures, you can never remove it from the holy scriptures, and it still will be there in that day when you stand before the God who gave us the scriptures to preach and teach.

Fran, ALL SCRIPUTRES teach one cohesive truth and must be used to do so. Connecting John 15 with other scriptures showing WHEN and WHY folks shall be cast into the lake of fire is how any wise teacher of God's word teaches truth. But what would folks like you know about this since you "adamantly" reject me from doing so. You and others here are so in loved with your work gospel (man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation) that you reject the biblical teaching of any that teach a salvation of pure grace, evidence by the recipient being careful to maintain the fruits of the Spirit in their daily life as they live out the Christian life per God's commandments not man made commandments, such as @Studyman promotes, by abstaining from certain meats, living by OT dietary laws given exclusively to the nation of Israel, etc.

Again, you err by not knowing the word of God, especially so as you think you do!

1) Fran NOT all are brothers and sisters, yet as I said above, charity demands we treat others as such, UNTIL they give clear evidence that they are not so, and THEN we cast them out as heathens, etc.

2) Fran, we do not have it in our power to save a person from spiritual death! Only by the power of God is one delivered from being spiritual dead in trespasses and sin; and once delivered they cannot never die the second death, impossible.

Revelation 20:6
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection, that takes places during one's life from being dead in trespasses and sin to life in Jesus Christ.

John 5:25​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

You proud statement thinking it is in YOUR power to save a person from spiritual death is against God's testimony of the truth.

As I said above these scriptures are speaking of a practical death that some of God children do lapse into at times, sad to say, much like Lot did, and even Peter by denying Christ. Yes, we CAN save them from this practical death that even the best of God children could fall into, by not taking heed to the scriptures as they should. When we save a brother from erring, we save him from committing more sins by him continuing in the life as he was living in ~ "will save his soul from death (practical) and will cover a multitude of sins....." that he would committed by not being converted back into the way he should be living in.

Fran, truly I should be saying this TO YOU! For you to make such an unscriptural statement as that is to show your rejection of God's word. You said: "no such concept as election of grace in the NT or anywhere in the bible." Really, what Bible to you read from? Fran's translation of the word of God? Listen to God's testimony, not mine:

Romans 11:4​

“But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

We learn (at least we should) that if any are preserved from false worship, if any are brought to the knowledge of God, it is by His special influence and agency and grace alone, and not owing to themselves. Such favored individuals are said to be "reserved" by God. How different is this from your view and the views of multitudes who profess Christianity!

As there was a remnant then reserved by God, so there is a remnant now. Both were necessary for the preservation of the nation. The seven thousand were its salt in Elijah’s time, as were the remnant here spoken of during Israel's present blindness.

According to the election of grace ~ Than this nothing can be more explicit in spite of what you and others teach otherwise. God had formerly reserved for Himself, by His gracious influence and special agency, a small number in Israel; and in the same way, at the time when the apostle wrote, He had reserved, according to His sovereign choice, a remnant of that nation. And to set aside every idea that this election was the reward of an inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, the Apostle adds that it was of grace. It was an unconditional choice, resulting from the sovereign free favor of God. WHY do you reject God's word, so boldly and with a proud spirit? More than you bargain for? I could say much more, but enough for now.

Coming back to finish, and finish I WILL.

Don't bother finishing.
I'm done with you for now.

Just will say this:

JESUS DID NOT profess some branches to be in Him and some not to be.

HE SAID:

THE BRANCHES IN THE VINE THAT DO NOT BEAR FRUIT WILL BE SEVERED.
CUT AWAY
BURNED.

If you wish to reply,
please refer specifically to a verse I posted and reply to it.

Your word salads make me nauseous.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you know the term sealed is used various ways in the New Testament. In Matthew 27:66 we read that Jesus’ tomb was sealed by the Romans. In Revelation we are told that Satan will be sealed in the abyss for one thousand years.

There are several references to books that were sealed in Rev. 6.

1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say, as with a voice of thunder, “Come!” 2 And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

3 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 And out came another horse, bright red; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that men should slay one another; and he was given a great sword.
5 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and its rider had a balance in his hand; 6 and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm oil and wine!”

7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; 14 the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?” Rev. 6:1–17

We can also read that during the Tribulation God will place a seal on 144,000 people from the tribe of Israel as shown in Rev. 7.

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, 5 twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand of the tribe of Gad, 6 twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand of the tribe of Manasseh, 7 twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand of the tribe of Issachar, 8 twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Benjamin.

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


In every case the term sealed carried with it the ideas of protection and security. To seal something, whether it was a document or a tomb, was to close it off from outside influences and interferences.

That is still true today. We seal windows and doors to keep the wind out. We seal letters to keep everyone out except the addressee. We seal our basements to keep water out. We even put a seal on our furniture to keep the dust from getting into the pores of the wood.

We may seal windows Jay,,,but in the NT to seal means to baptize.
The seal of baptism.
Did you know that we are sealed at baptism?

But
Unless you're of the reformed faith.... we can also be UNSEALED....
Just like a name can be DELETED from the Book of Life.

We are protected and secure,,,,
but for only as long as we wish to be.

Did you lose YOUR free will when you got saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all genuine believers.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Copy and paste.

Same ole' stuff.

Same ole' mistakes.

Have you nothing NEW to say?

JESUS said the branches that DO NOT BEAR FRUIT ARE TAKEN AWAY...CUT OFF....SEVERED.

You need some guy named Robertson to explain to you what that means?

Maybe we could stop reading men's words
and start HEARING what JESUS says??

That would be nice.

Branches that are IN THE VINE
If someone is IN THE VINE...he is saved.

The SAVED PERSON MUST BEAR GOOD FRUIT.

Too legalistic for you mailmandan?
Too bad.
It's what JESUS stated....and Roberson could believe what he may in order to further
his easy believism,,,,cheap grace teachings.

JESUS saved you and JESUS knew how to communicate.
LISTEN TO JESUS.

 

[Jay]

Sealing belongs to believers only and to all believers. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 Paul makes no exceptions in writing to a group in which exceptions could easily be justified.

You have been sealed. The moment you trusted Christ as your Savior, God sealed you.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Studyman

Agreed

Studyman, or GB, your former name at Grace Centered, you and I have been around and around and generally you leave off after you have posted the same old arguments many times over, as I have said before that your bible knowledge is very limited to a certain portion/topics of God's word, getting you away from those, means that you generally high tail for the mountains, until every thing dies off ~ here you come again, saying the same old words over and over again, preaching the same lies as before.

Studyman, does the word of God oppose me eating a meat lovers pizza, as you think it does? Your rellgion is a mixture bewtween Jehovah Witnesses and SDA, very close! Even though you boast of not being part of today's religious movement, you actually are right in the middle of it.

I had two piece of sausages this morning with one pancake ~ did I sin against my God? You answer that, and let all know who you truly are~ and who they are dealing with.

Before the God of heaven, I love more humility, seeing pride lives in my flesh, a sin that I hate, but it IS THERE for sure.

Studyman, I AGREE, yet our works have not one iota to do with anyone inheriting eternal life, eternal life was secured for God's elect by Jesus Christ alone, period. The Gospel is the power of God ~WHY? because therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith! The gospel shouts.....GRACE, GRACE to the sinner by Jesus Christ securing a righteousness for God's elect that they could not provide for themselves before God's law in order to enter into eternal life. If the gospel is preached as it should be preached, then no one who even think they they could contribute one thing in order for God to impart eternal life to them ~ eternal life is a free gift given to the elect sinner on the behalf of what Christ did for him. Add one thing to that and you are preaching a gospel based on WORKS. God has pronounced a curse upon all that preaches another gospel.

Studyman, you are one confused person. You said: "It was Paul, Peter and the Apostles who told the Gentiles in Acts 15, "To Abstain" from certain traditions that were contrary to God's Law given to men through Moses. And this was years after Jesus ascended to His Father."
That's NOT why the first church counsel was held, it was held to answer the false teachings of men like you, and @GodsGrace, and other here, and it is this:

Acts 15:1​

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Sound so much like men in our day, that wants to add WORKS to salvation from sin and condemnation. (WORKS DO FOLLOW, but not the means thereof, let us be clear with this point.) Men think you must do this, that and the other before you can be saved from your sins; they do not preach that Jesus Christ alone SECURED eternal life for his chosen people. You said again:

"Yes, they were trying to promote their traditions, many of which transgressed God's commandments, onto the Gentiles in Acts 15. But their law had been a Yoke of bondage they placed on the necks of men for centuries, and even the Apostles couldn't bear them."
Studyman, this is what you and folks like @GodsGrace are doing! Any works that you teach that a man must do, in order to be born again and do in order to keep his salvation ~ you are doing just what the church came together to discuss and they they so adamantly rejected, which proves they would also reject your teaching.

Very deceitful are you with your words. There are certain parts of the OT that were strictly for the Jews only, mainly their dietaries laws, and many other such laws ~ the law as far as the rule of life that is contain in the ten commandments are ever enforce as ~ a rule to live by, not in order to obtain life but as the highest standard of righteousness any one could have to live by. Christians delight in the law of God, and to them is it spiritual, good, just. But, it also show us just how corrupt we are by nature, that is in our natural flesh, we know dwelleth no good thing, no, not one based upon God's spiritual law.

You know Studyman, one can be saved, yet in error on certain biblical truths, but how do you know that I do not practice what I preach? You have never seen me, nor do you know me personally. Now, no problem of you judging my teachings and to determine if I'm preach the true gospel of Christ, that I can and must live with. I have judge your teaching to be not of God, not even close.

Then accept such scriptures as:

Matthew 11:25-27​

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”

Please don't mention me in your posts.
I'd appreciate it.

YOU are the one that is not understanding the NT RB....
Have you ever asked yourself why you are so opposed?

Here's why...
Because YOU believe a religion that does not exist in the NT.
YOU believe a man-made religion that was not taught by Jesus.

And...you sure should believe in good works, because, as reformed/calvinist teaching goes....
it is those that do good works that are shown to be saved.

You should get to learn the reformed religion if that's the religion you wish to follow.

I'll stick to Christianity and what JESUS taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sealing belongs to believers only and to all believers. In 2 Corinthians 1:22 Paul makes no exceptions in writing to a group in which exceptions could easily be justified.

You have been sealed. The moment you trusted Christ as your Savior, God sealed you.

Are you talking to me?

If so, you'll have to explain the following verses....

Paul stated that we must CONTINUE in our faith:


Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Please notice
Verse 21: The persons were formerly alienated....thus lost.
Verse 22: They are now reconciled to God.....saved.
Verse 23: They will remain saved IF they CONTINUE in the faith and not moved away.
Continue in the faith.
Not moved away.


Matthew 18:13
13 "If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine * which have not gone astray.


Jesus states that a sheep can go astray.
Do you trust Jesus to be teaching the truth?

 

[Darby]

The Bible tells us often that we are sheep. We are sheep and God is a shepherd. That sheep/shepherd word picture is at the heart of the best-loved Psalm–Psalm 23. I spent some time with that psalm lately and tried to gain a better appreciation of why God saw fit to tell us we are sheep.

A sheep has been known to go astray but Jesus will go after it.

Do a little bit of reading about sheep and you’ll soon see they are not survivors. They are not strong and independent creatures, they’re actually kind of pathetic dumb.

Hundreds of sheep followed their leader off a cliff in eastern Turkey, plunging to their deaths this week while shepherds looked on in dismay. Four hundred sheep fell 15 metres to their deaths in a ravine in Van province near Iran but broke the fall of another 1,100 animals who survived. Shepherds from a nearby village neglected the flock while eating breakfast, leaving the sheep to roam free. The loss to local farmers was estimated at $74,000.

One sheep wandered off a cliff and 1,499 others just followed along. Can you picture it? 1,500 sheep, each walking off a cliff, one after the other. Soon they were piled so deep that the ones at the bottom were crushed to death and the ones on top were lying on a big downy-soft pillow. It is completely absurd and tells us one important fact about sheep and the first reason sheep absolutely need a shepherd: they are not the smartest animals in the world. In fact, they may well be just about the dumbest animals in the world.

And here’s a second reason sheep need a shepherd: they are directionless. Sheep are prone to wander. Even if you put them in an absolutely perfect environment with everything they need (things like green pastures and still waters), sooner or later they will just wander off. If a shepherd doesn’t manage them, if he doesn’t micromanage them and keep them under constant surveillance, they’ll wander off and be lost.

But the good news is found in the Parable of the Lost Sheep, in Matthew 18:12-14 and Luke 15:4-7. It describes a shepherd who leaves his ninety-nine sheep to search for the one that is lost, illustrating God's love and concern for every individual.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible tells us often that we are sheep. We are sheep and God is a shepherd. That sheep/shepherd word picture is at the heart of the best-loved Psalm–Psalm 23. I spent some time with that psalm lately and tried to gain a better appreciation of why God saw fit to tell us we are sheep.

A sheep has been known to go astray but Jesus will go after it.

Do a little bit of reading about sheep and you’ll soon see they are not survivors. They are not strong and independent creatures, they’re actually kind of pathetic dumb.


One sheep wandered off a cliff and 1,499 others just followed along. Can you picture it? 1,500 sheep, each walking off a cliff, one after the other. Soon they were piled so deep that the ones at the bottom were crushed to death and the ones on top were lying on a big downy-soft pillow. It is completely absurd and tells us one important fact about sheep and the first reason sheep absolutely need a shepherd: they are not the smartest animals in the world. In fact, they may well be just about the dumbest animals in the world.

And here’s a second reason sheep need a shepherd: they are directionless. Sheep are prone to wander. Even if you put them in an absolutely perfect environment with everything they need (things like green pastures and still waters), sooner or later they will just wander off. If a shepherd doesn’t manage them, if he doesn’t micromanage them and keep them under constant surveillance, they’ll wander off and be lost.

But the good news is found in the Parable of the Lost Sheep, in Matthew 18:12-14 and Luke 15:4-7. It describes a shepherd who leaves his ninety-nine sheep to search for the one that is lost, illustrating God's love and concern for every individual.

Right.
But the above does not detract from the fact that a sheep CAN go astray....
and if it does it is IN DANGER of death.

 

[mailmandan]

Copy and paste.

Same ole' stuff.

Same ole' mistakes.

Have you nothing NEW to say?

JESUS said the branches that DO NOT BEAR FRUIT ARE TAKEN AWAY...CUT OFF....SEVERED.

You need some guy named Robertson to explain to you what that means?

Maybe we could stop reading men's words
and start HEARING what JESUS says??

That would be nice.

Branches that are IN THE VINE
If someone is IN THE VINE...he is saved.

The SAVED PERSON MUST BEAR GOOD FRUIT.

Too legalistic for you mailmandan?
Too bad.
It's what JESUS stated....and Roberson could believe what he may in order to further
his easy believism,,,,cheap grace teachings.

JESUS saved you and JESUS knew how to communicate.
LISTEN TO JESUS.

Your sarcasm, insults and straw man arguments are of no use here and do not change the fact that you promote legalism/works-righteousness. I already thoroughly explained John 15 to you multiple times in various threads and I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine but sadly, you just don't have ears to hear.

You once said this to me below, which explains the very heart of your error when interpretating John 15 and it also explains why you don't properly teach the gospel.

"Good works are required to maintain your salvation.."

"THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life."

 

[Elliot]

Right.
But the above does not detract from the fact that a sheep CAN go astray....
and if it does it is IN DANGER of death.

But...Not if Jesus is their Shapard. He has conquered sin and death by His death and resurrection.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your sarcasm, insults and straw man arguments are of no use here and do not change the fact that you promote legalism/works-righteousness. I already thoroughly explained John 15 to you multiple times in various threads and I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine but sadly, you just don't have ears to hear.

You once said this to me below, which explains the very heart of your error when interpretating John 15 and it also explains why you don't properly teach the gospel.

"Good works are required to maintain your salvation.."

"THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life."

I don't TEACH the gospel.
You come here to TEACH the gospel?
You have a PhD after your name?

Where is the insult in my post?
Please post it.
Sarcasm...yes...
Strawman...no...where is the strawman argument?
Please post it.

I promote legalism?
OBEYING JESUS IS LEGALISM?
Then YES....I practice legalism.
As should everyone.

And you posted these sentences of mine:
"Good works are required to maintain your salvation.."

"THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life."
Thanks.....yes. They are 100% CORRECT and mirror
John 15:1-2 no matter what YOU believe.

Jesus Is the Vine--Followers Are Branches​

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


I kept the title in the NASB because it might be useful to you.
JESUS IS THE VINE...FOLLOWERS ARE THE BRANCHES.

Indeed, THIS is what Jesus is teaching.

You can dance around this all you want to...
but this is what JESUS IS TEACHING....

JESUS IS THE VINE.
EVERY BRANCH IN THE VINE...IN JESUS (A SAVED PERSON)
THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT (THAT IS NOT DOING GOOD WORKS)
IS TAKEN AWAY.

I prefer Jesus over Robertson.

JESUS said that the branches IN HIM that do not produce fruit
will be TAKEN AWAY....CUT OFF....SEVERED.


AND,,,,not only that...but look:
God prunes the branches that DO GOOD WORKS,,,
so that they can do even more!

Interpret that as you will....
JESUS WAS A GOOD COMMUNICATOR...
He said what He meant...
and meant what He said.

 

[GodsGrace]

But...Not if Jesus is their Shapard. He has conquered sin and death by His death and resurrection.

Elliot...those such as yourself deny what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught a sheep can go astray.
What do you mean NOT IF JESUS IS THE SHEPHERD.

JESUS IS THE ONE TEACHING that a sheep can go astray.

Could you stop for a minute and think this through?

 

[Elliot]

Elliot...those such as yourself deny what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught a sheep can go astray.
What do you mean NOT IF JESUS IS THE SHEPHERD.

JESUS IS THE ONE TEACHING that a sheep can go astray.

Could you stop for a minute and think this through?

You missed the point put your thinking cap on

CAN go astray....
and if it does it is IN DANGER of death.

 

[GodsGrace]

You missed the point put your thinking cap on

OK
My thinking cap is getting tight!!
Too many on these threads that go against what Jesus taught.

If the sheep strays, it is in real danger.

IF we stay close to Jesus and do not stray, we will be safe.
I'd even say that if we do go astray, God will always look for us....
but it will always be our free will decision to return to Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Johann

You gave @mailmandan a LIKE at post no. 451


Could you please exegete the following verses?

John 15:1-2 NASB
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Thanks.

 

[Elliot]

If we belong to Jesus we are safe. Jesus is a safe place. He is the only safe one. In Him, we are given a safe place to grow in our true identity. We can explore and try new things in our gifting and talents without fear of failure. We can find refuge, safety, and shelter in Jesus Christ

When I think of the Cross, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo what Jesus did seems preposterous.

Lost Lamb Video>>

 

[synergy]

The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Self-attached branches? Please tell us how "not genuine believers" possess the spiritual power to spiritually "self-attach" themselves to the spiritual Vine that is Jesus.

 

[Johann]

@Johann

You gave @mailmandan a LIKE at post no. 451


Could you please exegete the following verses?

John 15:1-2 NASB
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Thanks.

I can give @mailmandan a "like" if I appreciate his post--that's my prerogative. I didn’t join this forum to be a follower or to join cliques.

Honestly, your posts come across as scattered and disruptive, and it’s tough to read them because they seem to lack a certain coherence and quality.

Non taggarmi più, sorella.

J.