Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[ProDeo]

So what are you getting at @ProDeo?

J.

An answer to my question, if there are exceptions.

 

[ProDeo]

--or what? Are you unsure re your salvation?

Me?

NO.

 

[Selah]

OK--so who are the elect? And is there an opportunity for the non-elect? And yes, Scripture should always be read and studied, rightly dividing the word of truth---

Johann.

Don’t you know? I’m going out the door right now. Perhaps we can continue this discussion later.

 

[Johann]

An answer to my question, if there are exceptions.

Just gave you the answer, you what, kind of "missed it" @ProDeo? Very easy if you are a "one or two liner" kind of character.

J.

 

[JLB]

Not sure if you are a man or woman, so I will call you a child of grace, for now.

Thank you. That’s a good choice.

I’m a man.

 

[JLB]

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Yes, we were born of the will of God.


It’s God’s will for all men to be saved.


For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

 

[JLB]

@JLB

Greetings,

Your question is a question that any sincere believer would ask, and I thank you for the opportunity to answer for myself.

Not sure if you are a man or woman, so I will call you a child of grace, for now. Dear child of grace, we must learn to rightly divide the word of truth, something you obviously desire to do, or you would not be asking questions and seeking the truth, for which I commend you.

Save/saved/salvation are words used in different senses in the scriptures, which most folks only used them in one sense.....salvation from condemnation...the lake of fire, which is the second death. Those who do so, end up confuse on a few important truths, one of which you are not asking:

The new birth, or being born again, is a work performed by the Spirit of God alone, apart from all means, the written word of God; a preacher; and man's own will,; since man is dead in tresspasses and sins, and needs the SAME POWER that resurrected Jesus from the dead to resurrect the sinner, who is also dead in sins, unable to hear, see, and believe the word of God, simply put, unable to do spiritual acts pleasing to God in his natural depraved flesh/heart he received from Adam. Proof text? No problem.

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

This one verse ruled out, our own wills, since they are depraved and at enmity against God; also, it rules out the will of a man, or one brings the gospel message, since the person hearing the message is void of spiritual eyes, ears, and most of all an heart that is not a heart of stones, which all are that come from Adam.

I said, that regeneration of a sinner takes the SAME POWER that resurrected our Lord from the dead, and this is not my personal opinion, but teh very word of God, consider:

Ephesians 1:19​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”.........

Ephesians 2:1​

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”

Child of grace, read these scriptures again carefully, and may God open your understanding to them and you too will see that the new birth is a birth wherein God is the ONLY active person working and man is totally passive, in the new birth.

This truth is the only hope for the heathens who have never heard of Jesus Christ ~ it give hope to the feeble minded folks who are unable to process information like you and myself; it gives hope to folks dying before they are able to understand the gospel and be saved in a practical sense like you and myself are now doing.

We have examples of this new birth in the scriptures, which I may have time to go over once I come back from a very short trip later this morning.

In the meantime read these scriptures and tell me what you see:

Matthew 27:44​

“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.”

What wonderful scriptures recorded for us to rejoice in! Selah.

Ok. Thanks for taking the time say many things that have nothing to do with my question.



Again here is my question, as well as the apostle Paul’s question -

How is someone saved who has never heard of Jesus Christ, or the message of salvation?

• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

 

[Johann]

There is no OSAS, it's a scam to just make believers more complacent in their walks.

"Do not be deceived."

Study some more till you hit the Perfect tenses and Aorist and the Indicatives and THEN come back to me and tell me if it is a "scam"--until then.

J.

 

[Red Baker]

@JLB

Ok. Thanks for taking the time say many things that have nothing to do with my question.

Well, actually my post dealt exclusively with your question, but, no problem I will address your question from John 3:1-8 after some meetings, so look for it later, maybe even in the morning, since my meetings may take longer than I think.

JLB, maybe you should consider that the problem could be with your understanding, and not so much as to what I said.

Btw, did you even consider?

In the meantime read these scriptures and tell me what you see:
“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.”

Luke 23:39-43~"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

What wonderful scriptures recorded for us to rejoice in! Selah.

 

[JLB]

@JLB

Well, actually my post dealt exclusively with your question, but, no problem I will address your question from John 3:1-8 after some meetings, so look for it later, maybe even in the morning, since my meetings may take longer than I think.

JLB, maybe you should consider that the problem could be with your understanding, and not so much as to what I said.

Btw, did you even consider?

My question is simple. However my question does come from John 3:1-8.

My question comes from Romans 10:14, which is threefold, and which is a question Paul asks in conjunction with the salvation order that spans Romans 10:9-17


How is someone saved who has never heard of Jesus Christ, or the message of salvation?

• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace


I quoted the whole parable, and a parable it is, which means: in interpreting it we must not forget the great rule which applies to all Christ's parables. The general lesson of each parable is the main thing to be noticed. The minor details must not be tortured and pressed to an excess, in order to extract a meaning from them. The mistakes into which Christians have fallen by neglecting this rule, are neither few nor small.

Folk like you see certain sound bites that seemly would support their teaching, and leeching onto it, and running with it, regardless what the word of God teaches overall, for their heart has no desire for the truth, but, only to find seemly support for their own teachings like you have done with John 15.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman"~We should understand from the Lord's words from this parable, that the union between Christ and believers is very close, and absolutely necessary for fruit bearing. He is "the Vine," and they are "the branches." That is the main reason Christ used the metaphor of the vine and the branches, that the branches draws its life/nourishment from the VINE and apart from abiding in the vine, that there's no possibility of producing any fruits that it should be producing by being in the vine. This is the main lesson we should draw from this parable used by Christ, not the reason why you think he spoke these words, which you so desperately desire to draw from in order to support your position that born again children of God can lose the free gift of eternal life given freely by God's grace to them on the behalf of Jesus Christ. Which false doctrine goes against the whole teaching of the gospel of Christ, whereby, Christ secured the gift of eternal life for God's elect for them by his obedience and righteousness, which life is "NOT" depended upon their faithfulness and obedience!

More word salad.

What YOU believe is irrelevant, and what I see above is a statement of what YOU believe.

Here is what JESUS stated...

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Pay attention to what JESUS teaches:

1. God is the vinedresser......

2. Every branch IN JESUS ----surely a person that is IN JESUS is a saved person.

3. If that branch/saved person does NOT BEAR FRUIT....the branch/saved person is ccut away, severed...
Why? BECAUSE it was NOT BEARING FRUIT.

4. Pay attention: The branches that ARE bearing fruit....God PRUNES so that they could produce even MORE FRUIT.


See RB...
No word salad needed.

Very simple to understand for those that follow Jesus and not some men who teach differently.

The union between the branch of a vine and the main stem, is the closest that can be conceived. It is the whole secret of the branch's life, strength, vigor, beauty, and fertility. Separate from the parent stem, it has no life of its own. The sap and juice that flow from the stem are the origin and maintaining power of all its leaves, buds, blossoms, and fruit. Cut off from the stem, it must soon wither and die.​

The VINE IS THE MAIN STEM.

The branches are attached to the vine.
The branches are attached to the LIFE-GIVER....GOD/JESUS, same thing.

If we separate the branch ffrom the life, what happens?
It dies, just as you've stated.

So, it's a good idea NOT TO BE CUT OFF from the vine.

JESUS agrees:

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


IF we do not ABIDE in Christ....we are thrown away as a branch...we dry up...gathered....and cast into the fire.

The union between Christ and believers is just as close, and just as real. In themselves believers have no life, or strength, or spiritual power. All that they have of vital religion comes from Christ. They are what they are, and feel what they feel, and do what they do, because they draw out of Jesus a "continual supply" of grace, help, and ability, and power. Joined to the Lord by the election of grace, and united in mysterious union with Him by the Spirit of grace, they stand, and walk, and continue, and run the Christian race. But every jot of good about them is drawn from their spiritual Head, Jesus Christ.​

Word salad.
Not interested.

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~So, how should we understand the words of the Lord Jesus, If it is true, and IT IS, that the gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance? We can look at such scriptures as the parables of Matthew 13 and learn how to interpret scriptures as John 15. The scriptures are one cohesive whole, with each helping to interpret each other, so that, there's a perfect flow from one to another showing us THE TRUTH we are seeking for.

So why didn't you post Matthew 13 and then correlate?

How about b elieving what JESUS taught instead of posting that
maybe JESUS didn't say what He meant.

Maybe He was a terrible communicator?

In every generation from since Christ's days upon the earth, men claiming to be part of the religion of the God of Abraham, who believed in Jesus Christ. In the last days, it will increase greatly, per Matthew 24. John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:10​

“And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Thanks RB.
Yes, I do agree with what you've posted.
Matthew 3:10 supports the position of all denominatins except a very few....

The axe is laid to the tree and every tree which does not bring forth good fruit will be cut down.

Agreed.

John is revealing a truth taught throughout the scriptures that there's coming a day when God shall separate the chaff from the wheat (wheat and chaff closely resembling each other) which only the true reapers would know the difference. This baptism of fire will take place when the Spirit of God cast them into the LAKE of fire! The Pentecostals seeking the baptism of fire do not know what they are truly doing!

Agreed.

And Jesus taught very well how to be saved.
BELIEVE IN HIM.
FOLLOW HIM.
OBEY HIM.

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~This great separation is yet in the future when God shall separate his children that indeed bear fruits, even though some thirty, some sixty and a few more and a few less for false professors who truly did not believe, but who loudly profess but in works and doctrine denied Jesus Christ.

Interesting.
So Jesus is referring to the future......
The future, like, when we'll b e in heaven?
We'll STILL HAVE TO BEAR fruit even in heaven??

Seems to me Jesus was ready to cut down the fig tree but He decided to wait ONE MORE YEAR:
And in another instance, he cursed the fig tree.


Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without * finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next * year, fine; but if not, cut it down.' "




Matthew 21:18
18 Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry.
19 Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever * be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.

Titus 1:16 (works)​

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”

2 Peter 2:1 (doctrine)​

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Unfortunately for you...Jesus was speaking about believers...
THOSE IN THE VINE.


But thanks for confirming that if we believe in Jesus...
we will do good works.

How have you deny the Lord in doctrine? By rejecting and proudly attempting to teach against that christ's atonement was only for his people, not for every single person taht has ever lived~all that preached this lying doctrine are guility of 2nd Peter 2:1;

Speak about pride.
Maybe YOU are speaking against Jesus....

Jude 1:4​

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

WHO HERE is denying Christ?

So, ask yourself I'm I denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ by going against the testimony of the scriptures? I say you are, but will leave the final judgment to God, who will not take lightly men corrupting his word concerning the redemption work by his Son Jesus Christ.

Getting personal again.
Seems like a habit of yours.

John 15:3​

“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”

Earlier in John 13 he said this:

John 13:10​

“Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.”

Judas the traitor, was still among them, so the Lord said correctly, but not all! In John 15:3 he said ye ARE clean....so no danger of them ever being cast in the lake of fire~that's not why we have John 15 recorded for us, but to exhort true believers that without Christ it would be impossible for them to bear fruit, so he was exhorting them to abide in him, teaching them the TRUE SOURCE of their strength, power, and fruit bearing, that would bring glory to God. True children of faith, look to Jesus Christ as their only source for the ability to bear fruits, acceptable unto God.

I'll stop with much more to say, but enough for now.

You should stop.
Your post has little to do with our discussion.
You're all over the place with all different topics
because you are unable to support your belief system.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

1) unbelievers posing as sheep, yet without fruits of the Spirit.
2) Jesus Christ is the true vine.
3) They were NEVER truly a God called sheep. Consider:

4) They are children of the Wicked one who sowed them among God's elect!
5) God Almighty.

"This time RB ,,,,, I'm waiting on your reply."..........It has been sent, and there's more coming. You made a false accusation that I never answer my post, which is false, I never refused not to answer,...so, this time, you have others coming.

You're repeating.
And I don't have the time.

John 15:1-2
THOSE IN THE VINE ARE BELIEVERS.

Can a person be IN THE VINE THAT GIVES LIFE TO THE BRANCHES...
and not be a believer?

Please explain HOW.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

False statement! You of all people I would answer, since you have never presented a point that I thought I would have trouble addressing. You know much less than you think you do, which is generally the case with folks who believe as you do.

Those personal insults are so typical of Calvinists RB.

Nothing new to me.
Ad hominems come easily to those that cannot support their position.

John 15:1-2 is very difficult to explain away.

It is JESUS speaking...
and He is being VERY CLEAR....
just as He always is.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Fran, learn the differences among though who teach unconditional salvation. Calvinism in its purest form believes and teach many things I do not hold to, and neither do others who believe as I do.

I'm what folks would called "high or hyper" Calvinist, since we do not teach means in regeneration of sinners ~ neither do we teach infant baptism, an heresy that many of the reformers brought with them from the RCC/EOC. We do not teach covenant theology as many of the teach. For your information, I'm a Particular Baptist more like those from England during the time of Samuel Richardson (1640, etc.) whom I see much agreement with. So there, do with it as you may, it makes no difference to me.

As I've said many times,,, I study the bible...
I don't care about the difference between on type of Calvinist and another type of Calvinist.
It's still Calvinism.

I see men from Augustine down through the churches history rising up and embracing me as a brother.

Please show me some EARLY CHURCH FATHERS that were taught by the APOSTLES and show me who among them believed in predestination.

NONE is what you'll find.

Your hero, Augustine, was a gnostic and brought his gnostic ideas into the CC.
If this impresses you, so be it.

It is not, however, part of Christianity.

Several well-known hymns were written by Calvinist: John Newton's Amazing Grace, the most famous of all; Rock of Ages~ by Augustus Toplady, the list are many. Not ashamed to be called a Calvinist, even though there are different beliefs among them.

Well, thanks for admitting that you are one.

Prove it~but, you must do better than you have thus done.

So, I blaspheme God by saying that salvation is of pure and free grace without man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation? I believe this is what they called "the worm calling the snail slimy" .

Yes sir.
You blaspheme God in two ways:

1. You change His character.
God is:
LOVE
MERCY
JUSTICE

Calvinism takes all three character traits away from God and makes Him.
UNLOVING
UNMERCIFUL
UNJUST


2. Calvinism states that God created everyhthing and causes ALL THINGS TO HAPPEN.
This includes evil acts.

You attribute to God the works of satan.

Yes sir....
you blaspheme God with your Calvinist theology.

 

[ProDeo]

Just gave you the answer, you what, kind of "missed it" @ProDeo? Very easy if you are a "one or two liner" kind of character.

J.

I had a simple one liner yes or no question. Instead I get one of your typical long posts while the answer to my simple question is still blowing in the wind, ©Bob Dylan. I see others take the time to answer your long posts point by point, I don't have that time nor the energy to do that, in a language that isn't my native it would take me hours, sorry I pass for that.

Shalom.

 

[Selah]

I had a simple one liner yes or no question. Instead I get one of your typical long posts while the answer to my simple question is still blowing in the wind, ©Bob Dylan. I see others take the time to answer your long posts point by point, I don't have that time nor the energy to do that, in a language that isn't my native it would take me hours, sorry I pass for that.

Shalom.

Most people appreciate a succinct and clear reply. I know I do.

 

[Johann]

I had a simple one liner yes or no question. Instead I get one of your typical long posts while the answer to my simple question is still blowing in the wind, ©Bob Dylan. I see others take the time to answer your long posts point by point, I don't have that time nor the energy to do that, in a language that isn't my native it would take me hours, sorry I pass for that.

Shalom.

Excellent! Then I’ll take my leave--I come here for edification, not sarcasm, Bobby Dylan.

@Studyman, is a a true builder, deeply rooted in God’s Word. And take good care on one of my threads.

J.

 

[civic]

Excellent! Then I’ll take my leave--I come here for edification, not sarcasm, Bobby Dylan.

@Studyman, is a a true builder, deeply rooted in God’s Word. And take good care on one of my threads.

J.

And studyman is also a Unitarian. Deeply rooted doesn’t necessarily lead to truth. There are two completely different gods between Trinitarians and Unitarians , 2 different Christs too.

 

[Dizerner]

Study some more till you hit the Perfect tenses and Aorist and the Indicatives and THEN come back to me and tell me if it is a "scam"--until then.

Too many people just want to hide their false doctrines behind obscure grammar references.

God is the one who communicates truth, and his Word says believers can fall away.

OSAS is one of Satan's most successful scams in the history of the Church.

 

[Dizerner]

I believe in OSAS with rare exceptions

OSAS with exceptions, I have never heard that before, lol.

Seems like an all or nothing proposition.