Excellent Discussion on OSAS

This is all just a very sophisticated and roundabout way of saying that a person necessarily must hear from God to properly understand Scripture, and anyone that thinks they can just do it all on their own is already under a form of deception.

A couple of things:

1) I have no problem with the above quotation, and I am not saying that we “can just do it all on [our] own”. But God has spoken through the words of scripture, which is why we call it the word of God. His Spirit then leads us into all truth, meaning he gives us the understanding of the scriptures. This is Paul’s declaration in 1Cor 15:3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas…”

And again, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”

We hear from God first in the Scriptures, and it is confirmed by the Holy Spirit’s leading.

2) Presuppositions affect what we “hear from God” too; otherwise no one would have disagreements and this forum would not exist.

Doug
 
@JLB

Brother, it may be simple, but not always simple to answer in a few words.

I have more than once done an exposition verses by verse on John 3:1-8, maybe someone who knows how to navigate this forum better than me can find it. But, will briefly do so again with you so as to cover this point as good as I can without spending much time.

John 3:1,2​

“There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

I consider this discourse between our Lord and Nicodemus to be one of the most important discourses Jesus had one on one with any one in the scriptures, and without question it is. We both know that God is all wise, and would never waste space in his word given to us for our exhortations, and learning, concerning certain vital truths, that are so essential to our overall understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Our Lord in this discourse with Nicodemus was not warning, nor condemning him for not being born again, nor exhorting him to be born again, (as so many believe and teach) but was revealing to him that what he professes to believe in was a proof/sign of one born again! Consider carefully to the words of the context, which will drive the interpretation for us.

1.) First consider Nicodemus' child like confession, which is as scriptural as anyone on this forum, or in any churches throughout this world.

"Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.” Nicodemus' testimony concerning Jesus was so much different than other Pharisees, who said that Jesus did miracles by the power of the prince of the devils ~ Beelzebub.

Matthew 12:24​

“But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.”

Nicodemus humbly confessed that Jesus could not do his miracles except God be with him. Based upon Nicodemus' confession concerning Jesus we read these words in John 3:3:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Here we see a double verily, which our Lord used when we was about to make a statement, that few would believe when hearing what he was about to say. Again, CONTEXT is King, and we must pay careful attention to what is being said back and forth in order to receive the truth being set forth for us to see and understand. Those to whom it is given to see, will see, and others will just harden their hearts to the truth, and refuse to see, regardless how much time is spent trying to help others to understand.

Our Lord said explicitly ~ Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God! But, Nicodemus did SEE and confessed that except God be with him, he could have done the miracles that HE DID, thereby, he saw, which means he was born again, because EXCEPT a person is born again, he would never be able to see, but would remain like the other wicked Pharisees who attributed Jesus' miracles to the devil!

Though this regenerated child of God saw, his knowledge was much to be desired, by the next words that came form his mouth.

John 3:4​

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

We know that Jesus used the words: born again, by what Nicodemus said back to him ~ the second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Even if this was possible, and we know that it is not, STILL one would be born of flesh, which is sinful, and still would need to be born again. If Nicodemus had not asked that child like question, then Jesus would have never used water in the next verse.

John 3:5​

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

The flow of the context is so important. Again, Jesus would have never mention water, if Nicodemus had not asked what he asked: "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” Our first natural birth takes place when the water breaks and the child is born. The New birth is a birth of the Spirit of God, more on this later. Water is never mentioned again when our Lord explains the new birth and how it takes place. Seeing the things within the kingdom of God comes after one enters the kingdom of God through being born of the Spirit.

John 3:6​

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

That which is born of the flesh, IS FLESH and must be born again by the Spirit of God, and once that takes place that person is spiritual can from that point forward see, hear, and believe, yet it comes slowly over time, some quicker than others, there're many factors that determines just how fast one begins to see, hears and believes ~ all are not the same, even Nicodemus was slow coming around, if we follow his life what little we have recorded of it. John 7:50; 19:39.

John 3:7,8​

“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."~ "BEFORE" one an see, hear, and understand! Which proves beyond a shallow of doubt, that the new birth MUST proceed faith, works acceptable by God. Question: who made the different between Nicodemus and the rest of the rulers of the Jews? Certainly not Nicodemus ability, for his spiritual light was at this moment very dim, yet it was there, only by the grace of God and the birth of the Spirit of God.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

The new birth is much like the wind so said our Savior. The wind is sovereign and blows where it pleases. The wind is invisible, you can only see the effect of it, yet not the wind itself.

JLB, that's one reason I asked you did you consider the thief on the cross ~ at one moment he just like the other railed on Christ, and out of nowhere, he said what he did that's recorded for us in Luke 23:39-43! The thief was born by the Spirit of God even while Christ was on the cross dying for his sins! Selah! That's the only reason we have that recorded for us to consider. If you have a better reason, then share it with me.

The new birth is a birth where God is the ONLY active person working ~ it takes place in our subconsciousness, we are totally unware of it happening. We could sleeping, working, even dying like the thief, and many other things one could be doing, you name it. The new birth can take place even in our mother's womb, like John the Baptist. Man is dead spiritually speaking until the new birth. The new birth, allows us to NOW see, hear, and believe, but not until then. The preacher is only needed for the born again person to be able to hear, and believe the testimony of God concerning. Faith is the evidence of one born of God, not the means thereof!

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

I don’t know why it left out the word “not” in my post.

My question is simple. However my question does NOT come from John 3:1-8.



My question comes from Romans 10:14, which is threefold, and which is a question Paul asks in conjunction with the salvation order that spans Romans 10:9-17


How is someone saved who has never heard of Jesus Christ, or the message of salvation?

  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


  • How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
 
@JLB
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
I will answer some more of your post as time permits. I'll slow down doing this post seeing some of my errors in my writings in my last post. I should have double check my post to you before posting..... sorry.

To answer your question it is simple, they cannot. But, our faith has not one thing to do with being born again, not one thing. The gospel is given to impart knowledge unto those who God has quicken to life, it was never given for the purpose of giving life to the sinner. The gospel does not bring life, it brings life to light through the preaching of the cross. proof text? No problem.

2nd Timothy 1:9,10​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

Therefore Paul added:

2nd Timothy 1:11​

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”

JLB, the gospel is the power of God ONLY to those who are already saved from sin and condemnation, and a true source of their practical salvation as far as knowledge and their growth in grace is concerned.

Romans 1:16,17​

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

The gospel can ONLY be revealed form a person who has faith, to another person who has faith for the scriptures are clear to this truth: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Paul said the same here:

1st Corinthians 1:18​

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to saved his children ~ saved in a practical sense, from false prophets, ignorance, etc. The Spirit of God ALONE regenerates them, so that men like Paul can be used to saved them from their natural ignorance we all have by nature.
 
@GodsGrace
Word salad.
Not interested.
Your choice. I guess it is easy to call another person post a "Word Salad" ~ especially so when you cannot refute it. If you look at my post to you, and then look at your reply back, then one should be able to see it is a pitiful attempt to disprove another person's post. But, be as it may be, I will not waste any more time with addressing your post since you said: Not interested.
 
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@GodsGrace

Your choice. I guess it is easy to call another person post a "Word Salad" ~ especially so when you cannot refute it. If you look at my post to you, and then look at your reply back, then one should be able to see it is a pitiful attempt to disprove another person's post. But, be as it may be, I will not waste any more time with addressing your post since you said: Not interested.
I always reply to your posts.
I've always explained to you why YOUR understanding of the odd verses you post do NOT support your position.
In fact, sometimes, you've posted verses that support MY position.

Also, you could back down if you wish...
but not on my account.

I said I wasn't intereted in a PARTICULAR PARAGRPAH OF YOURS.
Do you realize how much you write that amounts to NOTHING?
Guess you don't...but others do.


So, good try at an excuse to back out.
But no cigar.

Your posts are a mish mash of words that mean NOTHING.

And YOU are the one that cannot refute...
thus the word salad.

And it would be nice if you stopped being insulting...
but this is par for the course for Reformed/Calvinist believers.

Maybe because it makes you feel so special that YOU are one of the chosen ones
by none other than God Himself.

Happily for humankind,,,God invites ALL MEN to be saved...
if they so wish.

You weren't able to handle
John 15:1-2 so you back out.


Par for the course.

But not because of anything I stated.....
Because you tire of dealing with THE TRUTH.
 
@JLB

I will answer some more of your post as time permits. I'll slow down doing this post seeing some of my errors in my writings in my last post. I should have double check my post to you before posting..... sorry.

To answer your question it is simple, they cannot. But, our faith has not one thing to do with being born again, not one thing. The gospel is given to impart knowledge unto those who God has quicken to life, it was never given for the purpose of giving life to the sinner. The gospel does not bring life, it brings life to light through the preaching of the cross. proof text? No problem.

2nd Timothy 1:9,10​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

Therefore Paul added:

2nd Timothy 1:11​

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”

JLB, the gospel is the power of God ONLY to those who are already saved from sin and condemnation, and a true source of their practical salvation as far as knowledge and their growth in grace is concerned.

Romans 1:16,17​

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

The gospel can ONLY be revealed form a person who has faith, to another person who has faith for the scriptures are clear to this truth: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Paul said the same here:

1st Corinthians 1:18​

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to saved his children ~ saved in a practical sense, from false prophets, ignorance, etc. The Spirit of God ALONE regenerates them, so that men like Paul can be used to saved them from their natural ignorance we all have by nature.
RB,,,the above is not for me...
but apparently, once again, you are UNABLE to reply to a simple question.

More word salad on the plate.

Again, posting scripture that has NOTHING TO DO with the question at hand.


And WHY do the just live by faith?
I thought the reformed believe that they live by faith
because God WANTS THEM TO and so DECREES IT.
§That's not living by faith....
that robotics.

And Jesus said an unborn person CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM....
He DID NOT state that SAVE means from ignorance.

Incredible.
 
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Let’s be honest. Sometimes it’s a difficult concept to buy, isn’t it? But Jesus strait up tells us as “He Himself has said, ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you’” Hebrews 13:5

What part of never don't you understand?

Jesus is described as the author and perfecter, or finisher, of our faith.

Preamble

As I don't want to be misunderstood.

First of all I liked your post.

Secondly, I am born again 50 years ago and never doubted my salvation, I just believe what is written.

To the topic then, out of the many passages that promise the same you quote Hebrews 13:5, indeed HE will never forsake us.

Provided that WE don't forsake Him.

Finisher... It means literally “completer” and speaks of bringing something to its conclusion. It's a done deal.

Amen.

Judas 1:17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Judas 1:18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”
Judas 1:19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
Judas 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
Judas 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
Judas 1:22 And have mercy on those who doubt;
Judas 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
Judas 1:24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
Judas 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

It's where I put my trust in, not trusting myself.
 
Is "Scams" an obscure grammar reference?

No, lol. There's nothing difficult to understand about a scam.

One could also introduce Satan into the conversation for a little factor.

? Scripture says he goes about like a roaring lion.

Not buying it, not this kid.

Sounds like you've already made up your mind.

I want to be in the Light as He is in the light. I was to shine like the stars in the havens.

Then walk in the fear of God, otherwise you are just virtue signaling.

Let’s be honest. Sometimes it’s a difficult concept to buy, isn’t it?

I'm willing to accept any doctrine. Literally anything. I put absolutely no conditions on God whatsoever.

But if I am unwilling to ever hear something new or admit I could be deceived, then I am being stubborn.

What part of never don't you understand?

Jesus forsaking me is not me forsaking Jesus, what part of that don't you understand?

It's a done deal.

That's not what Scripture says.

Take heed when you stand lest you fall, hold fast your confession to the end.
 
@GodsGrace
Your choice. I guess it is easy to call another person post a "Word Salad" ~ especially so when you cannot refute it. If you look at my post to you, and then look at your reply back, then one should be able to see it is a pitiful attempt to disprove another person's post. But, be as it may be, I will not waste any more time with addressing your post since you said: Not interested.
Fran, please note what I said to you: "If you look at my post to you, and then look at your reply back, then one should be able to see it is a pitiful attempt to disprove another person's post."
RB,,,the above is not for me...
but apparently, once again, you are UNABLE to reply to a simple question.

More word salad on the plate.

Again, posting scripture that has NOTHING TO DO with the question at hand.
Fran, if you desire to comment on what I have posted, then take what I have posted and prove your accusations, it is just that simple, but you seem to have trouble following this simple task.

I dealt with what the gentleman presented to me ~ I always have, and always will, far from being perfect, but I think it is a very fair assessment of my post. Since it was not to you, why even be concerned. I think the Lord has a name for folks doing this:

1st Peter 4:15​

“But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.”

Proverbs 26:17​

“He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife (or a debate) belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.”

Do I need to explain this proverb more in details?
 
@GodsGrace

Fran, please note what I said to you: "If you look at my post to you, and then look at your reply back, then one should be able to see it is a pitiful attempt to disprove another person's post."

Fran, if you desire to comment on what I have posted, then take what I have posted and prove your accusations, it is just that simple, but you seem to have trouble following this simple task.

I dealt with what the gentleman presented to me ~ I always have, and always will, far from being perfect, but I think it is a very fair assessment of my post. Since it was not to you, why even be concerned. I think the Lord has a name for folks doing this:

1st Peter 4:15​

“But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.”

Proverbs 26:17​

“He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife (or a debate) belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.”

Do I need to explain this proverb more in details?
You did NOT reply to the other member.
Just as you never reply to anyone....

Never address the verses given to you...
instead you give verses back...
this is known as verse ping pong and leads to nowhere.

As to being a busybody...
I'm sorry TB,,,,but this is an open forum.
Anyone can reply to any post.

It is not a private convesation between YOU and the other member.
Anyone can join in.

Perhaps, at some point in time, you might care to respond to:

John 15:1-2

Jesus Is the Vine--Followers Are Branches​

(I left the title,,,you might find it helpful)

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.



instead of posting some more insults.
 
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

It is, quite literally, amazing the philosophical Judo that Calvinists, Free Gracers, and OSAS do to get around this clear verse.
 
It is, quite literally, amazing the philosophical Judo that Calvinists, Free Gracers, and OSAS do to get around this clear verse.
In response to your cowardly and cheap attack, I clearly addressed Fran's post : #269
I quoted the whole parable, and a parable it is, which means: in interpreting it we must not forget the great rule which applies to all Christ's parables. The general lesson of each parable is the main thing to be noticed. The minor details must not be tortured and pressed to an excess, in order to extract a meaning from them. The mistakes into which Christians have fallen by neglecting this rule, are neither few nor small.

Folk like you see certain sound bites that seemly would support their teaching, and leeching onto it, and running with it, regardless what the word of God teaches overall, for their heart has no desire for the truth, but, only to find seemly support for their own teachings like you have done with John 15.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman"~We should understand from the Lord's words from this parable, that the union between Christ and believers is very close, and absolutely necessary for fruit bearing. He is "the Vine," and they are "the branches." That is the main reason Christ used the metaphor of the vine and the branches, that the branches draws its life/nourishment from the VINE and apart from abiding in the vine, that there's no possibility of producing any fruits that it should be producing by being in the vine. This is the main lesson we should draw from this parable used by Christ, not the reason why you think he spoke these words, which you so desperately desire to draw from in order to support your position that born again children of God can lose the free gift of eternal life given freely by God's grace to them on the behalf of Jesus Christ. Which false doctrine goes against the whole teaching of the gospel of Christ, whereby, Christ secured the gift of eternal life for God's elect for them by his obedience and righteousness, which life is "NOT" depended upon their faithfulness and obedience!

The union between the branch of a vine and the main stem, is the closest that can be conceived. It is the whole secret of the branch's life, strength, vigor, beauty, and fertility. Separate from the parent stem, it has no life of its own. The sap and juice that flow from the stem are the origin and maintaining power of all its leaves, buds, blossoms, and fruit. Cut off from the stem, it must soon wither and die.

The union between Christ and believers is just as close, and just as real. In themselves believers have no life, or strength, or spiritual power. All that they have of vital religion comes from Christ. They are what they are, and feel what they feel, and do what they do, because they draw out of Jesus a "continual supply" of grace, help, and ability, and power. Joined to the Lord by the election of grace, and united in mysterious union with Him by the Spirit of grace, they stand, and walk, and continue, and run the Christian race. But every jot of good about them is drawn from their spiritual Head, Jesus Christ.

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~So, how should we understand the words of the Lord Jesus, If it is true, and IT IS, that the gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance? We can look at such scriptures as the parables of Matthew 13 and learn how to interpret scriptures as John 15. The scriptures are one cohesive whole, with each helping to interpret each other, so that, there's a perfect flow from one to another showing us THE TRUTH we are seeking for.

In every generation from since Christ's days upon the earth, men claiming to be part of the religion of the God of Abraham, who believed in Jesus Christ. In the last days, it will increase greatly, per Matthew 24. John the Baptist said:
“And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John is revealing a truth taught throughout the scriptures that there's coming a day when God shall separate the chaff from the wheat (wheat and chaff closely resembling each other) which only the true reapers would know the difference. This baptism of fire will take place when the Spirit of God cast them into the LAKE of fire! The Pentecostals seeking the baptism of fire do not know what they are truly doing!

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~This great separation is yet in the future when God shall separate his children that indeed bear fruits, even though some thirty, some sixty and a few more and a few less for false professors who truly did not believe, but who loudly profess but in works and doctrine denied Jesus Christ.
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

How have you deny the Lord in doctrine? By rejecting and proudly attempting to teach against that christ's atonement was only for his people, not for every single person taht has ever lived~all that preached this lying doctrine are guility of 2nd Peter 2:1;
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

So, ask yourself I'm I denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ by going against the testimony of the scriptures? I say you are, but will leave the final judgment to God, who will not take lightly men corrupting his word concerning the redemption work by his Son Jesus Christ.
“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”

Earlier in John 13 he said this:
“Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.”

Judas the traitor, was still among them, so the Lord said correctly, but not all! In John 15:3 he said ye ARE clean....so no danger of them ever being cast in the lake of fire~that's not why we have John 15 recorded for us, but to exhort true believers that without Christ it would be impossible for them to bear fruit, so he was exhorting them to abide in him, teaching them the TRUE SOURCE of their strength, power, and fruit bearing, that would bring glory to God. True children of faith, look to Jesus Christ as their only source for the ability to bear fruits, acceptable unto God.

I'll stop with much more to say, but enough for now.
 
@GodsGrace
You did NOT reply to the other member.
Just as you never reply to anyone....

Never address the verses given to you...
instead you give verses back...
this is known as verse ping pong and leads to nowhere.
Fran, once more, your statement is not honest, I always reply to anyone's post that is directed to me, I never fail in doing so, unless I just accidently over look it, which I think very seldom happens. And I do respond to verses presented, why should not do so? There's nothing to fear coming from folks who embrace a gospel based upon man being co-partners with Christ in his salvation from sin and condemnation.

Let put this to test now, shall we? You and @Dizerner can take post # 358 dealing with one of the most important subjects in the NT, actually all of the word of God, and refute what I have posted if you think it is wrong. Let us stop all this bickering back and forth and do what we should be doing. No more back and forth, there's no profit in this for anyone.

If we miss the truth in John 3:1-8 than our own system concerning Soteriology is wrong ~ John 3:1-8 is a biblical Litmus test to see where we stand according to the teachings of Christ.
 
@GodsGrace
John 15:1-2

Jesus Is the Vine--Followers Are Branches​

Fran, as I said in my post to you, the kingdom of heaven/God is composed of BOTH tares and wheat that shall be separated at the last day, per Christ's very own words, so, your title should more correctly read:

Jesus Is the Vine--'Profess" Followers Are Branches.​

Consider another parable:
Again:
The church in the beginning was a very small remnant but has grown into something God never intended it to be, so that the bird of the air (children of the devil, possess with an evil spirit) now have taken over the profess churches of God throughout this world. These branches shall be cut off and cast into the lake of fire in that day, and THEN shall the true branches/children of God shine forth and shall come and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God in its final, glorified, and eternal state.

Not all branches of the vine are truly connected to the vine by the grace of God, many have crept in unware, pretending to be true branches of Christ's vine.
 
In response to your cowardly and cheap attack, I clearly addressed Fran's post : #269
The above is addressed to @Dizerner .

Are you unable to speak to other members without insulting them?


John 13:35
35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
 
@GodsGrace

Fran, as I said in my post to you, the kingdom of heaven/God is composed of BOTH tares and wheat that shall be separated at the last day, per Christ's very own words, so, your title should more correctly read:

Jesus Is the Vine--'Profess" Followers Are Branches.​

Consider another parable:

Again:

The church in the beginning was a very small remnant but has grown into something God never intended it to be, so that the bird of the air (children of the devil, possess with an evil spirit) now have taken over the profess churches of God throughout this world. These branches shall be cut off and cast into the lake of fire in that day, and THEN shall the true branches/children of God shine forth and shall come and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God in its final, glorified, and eternal state.

Not all branches of the vine are truly connected to the vine by the grace of God, many have crept in unware, pretending to be true branches of Christ's vine.
How is a branch not truly connected to the vine?
A branch is either connected to the vine or is it not.

JESUS taught that the branches in John 15:1-2 ARE CONNECTED to the vine.

Let's look at it again:

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.



Maybe Jesus didn't know how to communicate properly?

But if He did, then the above verses mean the following:

Verse 1: JESUS is THE VINE....Jesus gives life to the branches that are IN THE VINE.
God is the vinedresser.


Verse 2: Every BRANCH IN THE VINE......
If we are IN THE VINE....we are saved becaue Jesus is giving us life.


THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT:
The branch in the vine that is receiving life - a believer receives life, not an unbeliever -
THAT branch,,,the saved person, that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT will be TAKEN AWAY,,,CUT OFF,,,SEVERED.


And if we continue on it gets even worse:
THE BRANCHES THAT BEAR FRUIT HE PRUNES....
SO THAT THEY MAY PRODUCE MORE FRUIT.

God prunes the branches that ARE producing fruit...
so they could produce even more fruit !


Now, you're posting about a remnant.
I truly fail to understand what that has to do with this.


Jesus is speaking about THOSE IN HIM that DO NOT BEAR FRUIT.
They will be taken away....cut off,,,severed.
 
@GodsGrace

Fran, as I said in my post to you, the kingdom of heaven/God is composed of BOTH tares and wheat that shall be separated at the last day, per Christ's very own words, so, your title should more correctly read:

Jesus Is the Vine--'Profess" Followers Are Branches.​


It's not MY title RB.
It's the title given to John 15:1-6 by the NASB.

And Jesus is not speaking about the last days as He does in Matthew 24....
Jesus is speaking about producing good fruit for the Kingdom of God,,,right here,,,right now.

Again....if the branch is connected to the vine....it is a born again branch.
It is receiving life from the vine.
Metaphor for a believer.

Jesus is not speaking about non-believers...
they are NOT attached to the vine.

Consider another parable:

Again:

The church in the beginning was a very small remnant but has grown into something God never intended it to be, so that the bird of the air (children of the devil, possess with an evil spirit) now have taken over the profess churches of God throughout this world. These branches shall be cut off and cast into the lake of fire in that day, and THEN shall the true branches/children of God shine forth and shall come and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God in its final, glorified, and eternal state.

Not all branches of the vine are truly connected to the vine by the grace of God, many have crept in unware, pretending to be true branches of Christ's vine.
Matthew 13:47-49 also has nothing to do with the above.

Let's take a look:

Matthew 13:47-49
47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Again, in the above Jesus is referring to the end of the world.
In John 15:1-2 Jesus is referring to RIGHT NOW....
We need to produce fruit so that we will be put to His right side as the end.
RIGHT NOW.


And it's good you brought up Matthew 13.
Matthew 13:7-9
7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
8 "And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
9 "He who has ears, let him hear."



In the very chapter you chose, Jesus is teaching that some seed fell amoung thorns and they got chocked.
And some fell on good soil AND THEY YIELDED A CROP.


Jesus wants us to produce fruit for His Kingdom here on earth.


You also posted Matthew 13:31
It has nothing to do with this discussion.
Except to say that if we do not yield good fruit...the Kingdom of God will not grow.


Please don't get the judgment of the end time with what Jesus expects from us RIGHT NOW.
 
@GodsGrace

Fran, once more, your statement is not honest, I always reply to anyone's post that is directed to me, I never fail in doing so, unless I just accidently over look it, which I think very seldom happens. And I do respond to verses presented, why should not do so? There's nothing to fear coming from folks who embrace a gospel based upon man being co-partners with Christ in his salvation from sin and condemnation.

Let put this to test now, shall we? You and @Dizerner can take post # 358 dealing with one of the most important subjects in the NT, actually all of the word of God, and refute what I have posted if you think it is wrong. Let us stop all this bickering back and forth and do what we should be doing. No more back and forth, there's no profit in this for anyone.

If we miss the truth in John 3:1-8 than our own system concerning Soteriology is wrong ~ John 3:1-8 is a biblical Litmus test to see where we stand according to the teachings of Christ.
But we're not discussing John 3:1-8

We ARE discussing John 15:1-2


Are you saying that ONLY YOU are saved and thus can interpret scripture
and others cannot because they are NOT SAVED??

Please leave this to God and stop making personal references.
 
You did NOT reply to the other member.
Just as you never reply to anyone....

Never address the verses given to you...
instead you give verses back...
this is known as verse ping pong and leads to nowhere.

As to being a busybody...
I'm sorry TB,,,,but this is an open forum.
Anyone can reply to any post.

It is not a private convesation between YOU and the other member.
Anyone can join in.

Perhaps, at some point in time, you might care to respond to:

John 15:1-2

Jesus Is the Vine--Followers Are Branches​

(I left the title,,,you might find it helpful)

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.



instead of posting some more insults.
Jesus teaching in John 15:1-8 is a tough passage/teaching, especially John 15:2 and John 15:6.

The greater question is were they saved or were they like judas and never saved but appeared to be saved and in the flock. We know judas heart was never in it for the right reasons when he was first called to follow Jesus. his motives were selfish. John 15 Jesus could be describing what the author of Hebrews is describing in Hebrews 6:4-9.
 
Jesus teaching in John 15:1-8 is a tough passage/teaching, especially John 15:2 and John 15:6.

The greater question is were they saved or were they like judas and never saved but appeared to be saved and in the flock. We know judas heart was never in it for the right reasons when he was first called to follow Jesus. his motives were selfish. John 15 Jesus could be describing what the author of Hebrews is describing in Hebrews 6:4-9.
There are many who might appear to be saved but are not.
This is not for us to determine.
We can only know what scripture states and what Jesus taught.
Those that believe in OSAS have a problem with some verses so they'll always state that "the person was never saved to begin with".

If a branch is IN THE VINE....he most definetly is saved.
I don't know how this could be denied.

Judas might have been saved at the beginning...I dislike debating this because only God can know for sure.

But we know that Jesus did say that some could BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then all away...

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.



This is Jesus teaching something.
He said they RECIEVE the word with joy.
They don't only HEAR the word....they recieve it.

He said THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE.
What was Jesus speaking of?
Believing in what?
What did He come to teach?
The kingdom of course.
They believe the teachings of Jesus and of the Kingdom FOR A WHILE....

But then...
they fall away.

You cannot fall away from something you never had.
 
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