Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Studyman]

Well, Studyman, that's what folks do they search the scriptures, seeking to follow the word of God only ~ so what happens when folks disagree WITH YOU, while they are truly seeking the word of God, are they following this world's religion, because they strongly disagree with you?

You don't "SEEK to follow God's Word only Red. You are a promoter of a specific religious sect of this world. Everyone knows it. Yes, you are Zealous for your adopted religious sect which is certainly nothing new. And clearly, like Saul was, you believe in your adopted religion. But what I point out to you, as Jesus and Paul pointed out to the mainstream preachers of their time, is not my disagreement with you. But the Holy Scriptures disagreement with your religious philosophy.

Paul isn't teaching the Gentiles in Gal. 4 that God's Judgments, Statutes and Laws are "Beggarly elements". YOU DO, but Paul wasn't. I posted Paul's Words and pointed out to you in a clear and concise way, that even a child can understand, that the Galatians were not "returning again" to obeying God's Laws that you preach they walked in, when they Didn't even know God, but were serving gods which were no gods.

You are promoting falsehoods about Paul's teaching Red. It's right there, and I asked for anyone on this forum, if they thought I wasn't understanding Paul's Words correctly, to show me, provide evidence from the Scriptures, and as I have in the past on this very forum, more than once, and I will be corrected. There isn't ONE person on this forum that can read my post, and not understand that what Paul is saying, and what you are preaching Paul is saying, are two completely different things.

It's the same for the Author of the "commandments contained in ordinances" that created the "Wall of Separation" between Jews and Gentiles. There is not one place in the entire Bible where God rejects anyone "who yields themselves servants to obey Him". It doesn't exist in the Holy Scriptures. And you can't find even ONE Law, Commandment, ordinance or statute that God has Moses write, that teaches otherwise. And either can anyone else.

Your preaching that God judged men according to the DNA they were born with, is no different than preaching God judges men by the color of their skin, or their wealth or stature in the world, and It is Absurd, a Blasphemy. And there are people who believe this nonsense and teach it to their kids, and it is perpetuated over and over and over, it puffs up more and more and more, like leaven in bread, until, as it is written. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived", and Jesus had to come and expose the rebellious Jews, or they would kill everyone who believed Moses and the Prophets.

Lets separate ourselves from such a religion. Let's trust God that HE will drive out these deceptions, little by little as He promised. We can start with "Do Gentiles who don't know God, and are serving gods that are not gods, walk in God's Judgments and Statutes? This is an easy one, of course they don't. So lets destroy these Amalekites out of our mind, with the Sword of the Lord, man woman and child, leave nothing left of it in the Temple of God.

Anyone who preaches that Gods Word relegated "ANYONE", who Loved Him, who Joined themselves to Him, and served Him, as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", because of the DNA they were born with, is deceived.

My brothers and sisters, Don't listen to people who promote such wickedness.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman @GodsGrace since you gave Studyman agreement for his post. Not so sure what part you agreed with, but here is my answer.

You don't "SEEK to follow God's Word only Red. You are a promoter of a specific religious sect of this world. Everyone knows it. Yes, you are Zealous for your adopted religious sect which is certainly nothing new. And clearly, like Saul was, you believe in your adopted religion. But what I point out to you, as Jesus and Paul pointed out to the mainstream preachers of their time, is not my disagreement with you. But the Holy Scriptures disagreement with your religious philosophy.

Well, that's why we are here, not to accuse any of not seeking God's word only, but to point out their errors in what they have come to believe and to defend.

Concerning being a promoter of a specific sect, that is not so, since we have withdrawn from organized religions of the last days, totally, not part of any religious group, and certainly do not defend any one particular group/sect ~ From Soteriology, to eschatology, to church government, you name it, we seek only to follow the scriptures, God being our witness and we do so, with a clear conscience before God and the holy angles, and the spirits of just men/women who have gone on before us. You added:

"Everyone knows it"~how do you know that to be true? Besides Studyman, I'm not here to impress others, but to be found faithful before the God of heaven and the Lord Jesus Christ. Men are with you one day, and the next they might be against you, vain is the support of men ~ I'm willing to walk alone if need be, I do not need man's approval, nor do I seek it.

2nd Timothy 4:16​

“At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.”

You said: "is not my disagreement with you. But the Holy Scriptures disagreement with your religious philosophy."

That's why we are here, to help others to be more perfectly conform to the truth of the word of God; so, if you think I'm in disagreement with the scriptures, then prove it, it is just that simple. If you failed in doing so, and if you have truth, then you should be able to help those seeker for the truth, it is not that complicated Studyman.

Paul isn't teaching the Gentiles in Gal. 4 that God's Judgments, Statutes and Laws are "Beggarly elements". YOU DO, but Paul wasn't. I posted Paul's Words and pointed out to you in a clear and concise way, that even a child can understand, that the Galatians were not "returning again" to obeying God's Laws that you preach they walked in, when they Didn't even know God, but were serving gods which were no gods.

When refuting men like you, we must be careful to divide your strawman arguments from what is actually being said that we disagree with; you and others are good at injecting arguments that we have never said and are not even debating.
By using Galatians 4 and speaking about returning to beggarly elements ~ we have never said, that God's judgments, Statues and laws are beggarly elements and neither did Paul. Let look at this verse, mainly the last half since the first half we have already covered and you said not a word concerning what we said, but, that's fine, let's move on.

Galatians 4:9~ But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?​

But now, after conversion to free grace in Christ, why return to fleshly acts of service? These Gentiles had been pagan idolaters, were converted to the gospel of Christ by Paul, and were now returning to Jewish legalism again by false brethren from Jerusalem.

There is nothing in this epistle about these Gentile converts returning to pagan idolatry. The context of the book drives our interpretation that they returned to Moses’ Law, not to pagan idolatry, for the whole theme is a blast against circumcision and Jewish legalism.

Do You have a problem with the term "returning" as though they left it? They were returning to a system of seeking to be accepted by their own works, which everyman by nature believes that they must do certain works on their own before God will accept them and impart eternal life to them. Do not be hung up on the word returning.

The weak and beggarly elements are fleshly rites of the Law (4:3; Col 2:8,20; Heb 9:10). You think they would be sick of carnal rites of worship after all they had been through! Whether pagan religious service or rites of Moses’ Law, why seek bondage again?

v10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.​

These are what they were returning to which Paul called weak beggaring elements. These are the days, months, times, and years of the Jewish calendar taught in Moses’ Law. These are not days, months, times, and years of pagan deities – proven by the book’s context. You, the SDA and Worldwide Church of God and other manmade cults love to bring Old Testament days, feasts, and other celebrations forward into the New Testament. God forbid! There is a revival today among Charismatics to dote on the tabernacle, furniture, and days ~ wasted time! Such days are matters of liberty: they cannot be required or connected to free justification by grace alone.
Included in the weak and beggarly elements are the dietary laws which Paul rebuke Peter in chapter two of this same epistle. They are matter of liberty, not NT commandments to abstain from certain meats. You said:

"that even a child can understand"~what a foolish statement! Truth comes by divine revelation, and even aged believers have trouble understanding truths, it does not come by anyone's intelligent, much more so by a child.

You are promoting falsehoods about Paul's teaching Red. It's right there, and I asked for anyone on this forum, if they thought I wasn't understanding Paul's Words correctly, to show me, provide evidence from the Scriptures, and as I have in the past on this very forum, more than once, and I will be corrected. There isn't ONE person on this forum that can read my post, and not understand that what Paul is saying, and what you are preaching Paul is saying, are two completely different things.

For sure, we teach two different gospels, I teach free grace without works; you have many works to be done in order for one to be justify and have eternal life at the end. I teach that Christ alone secured eternal life for each and every person given to him of His Father to redeem, and he will lose not one of them.

Your preaching that God judged men according to the DNA they were born with, is no different than preaching God judges men by the color of their skin, or their wealth or stature in the world, and It is Absurd, a Blasphemy. And there are people who believe this nonsense and teach it to their kids, and it is perpetuated over and over and over, it puffs up more and more and more, like leaven in bread, until, as it is written. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived", and Jesus had to come and expose the rebellious Jews, or they would kill everyone who believed Moses and the Prophets.

I have never said what you are saying that I do. Explain what you are hinting at.

Romans 3:9​

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;”

Anyone who preaches that Gods Word relegated "ANYONE", who Loved Him, who Joined themselves to Him, and served Him, as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", because of the DNA they were born with, is deceived.

I do not know of anyone personally who does such a thing, that is ~ relegates folks who love God and seeks to do his commandments as being lost because of their DNA. I will say, that anyone who loves God, was first loved by God, or they would have never loved God and would have never sought to do his commandments apart from God showing mercy to them, nor could they have done so, being depraved from their mother's womb by having the fallen image of their father Adam, or simply put, inheriting Adam's fallen nature which nature is at enmity against the God of heaven.

"without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" All are visible so, until the Spirit of God comes and seeks them out those, those to whom where given to Christ to redeem, those children of Abraham's promises.

Luke 19:9​

“And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.” A spiritual son!

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

No RB.
Listen carefully to me....
I'm interested in this verse which YOU posted and I have a question for you about it.

Here's your verse copied and pasted from your post:

Romans 8:29​

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”


Now...forget about what foreknow means.

This is my question for you:

WHAT did God pedestine?

You desire for me to leave out the definition concerning foreknow, which tell us WHOM/WHAT God predestinated. But, that's fine....

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" ......"The persons" to the spiritual blessings for which they are designed. To predestinate signifies to appoint beforehand to some particular end. In Scripture it is taken sometimes generally for any decree of God, as in Acts 4:28, where the Apostles say that the Jews were assembled to do whatsoever the hand and the counsel of God had determined (predestinated) before to be done. And Paul says, 1st Corinthians 2:7, "We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained (predestinated) before the world unto our glory." Sometimes this word is taken specially for the decree of the salvation of man, as Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace.’ In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." In the same way, in the passage before us, "Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son." As the term is here used, it respects not all men, but only those of whom God has placed His love from eternity, and on whom He purposes to bestow life through Jesus Christ.

So, whom or what would be "The persons" to the spiritual blessings for which they are designed.

 

[Selah]

God is most, most, MOST omniscient. He knows everything! …and those He predestined before the foundation of the world were those He knew would be conformed to the image of His Son.

Romans 8:28-29 (NKJV) 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Red Baker]

@Selah

God is most, most, MOST omniscient. He knows everything! …and those He predestined before the foundation of the world were those He knew would be conformed to the image of His Son.

Brother, if I may add something then receive it in the spirit being a lover of God's word of one seeking God's truth.

"and those He predestined before the foundation of the world were those He knew would be purpose to conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[Selah]

@Selah

Brother, if I may add something then receive it in the spirit being a lover of God's word of one seeking God's truth.

"and those He predestined before the foundation of the world were those He knew would be purpose to conformed to the image of His Son.

Hello from sis Selah.
I hear what you’re saying, brother, and what you say is true … but consider that where I say “knew”, I am pointing to the foreknowledge of Almighty God.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

Actually RB,,,there's no such concept as the doctrine of grace....

I'm starting here since the first part of your post I will cover when I make a post to @synergy, so no use of covering it twice.

Then the apostles would strongly disagree with you, if that means anything to you, which I trust it would. We shall see.

Galatians 5:4​

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

The folks in Galatia who were seeking to add works to the gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be justified from their sins and condemnation, were guilty of falling from grace, or, the doctrine of pure grace. So, in spite of what you are saying, there is a doctrine of grace taught in the word of God.

1st Peter 5:12​

“By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.”

Bear with me as we consider the true grace of God, therefore the doctrine of pure and free grace. If there is a doctrine of grace, and it is, there is also a false doctrine of grace, which is why you oppose the doctrine of grace, since your gospel is mixed with your own works in order to receive eternal life.

When considering grace as favour, we must define it as merited, unmerited, or demerited favour.

Fran, do you believe merited favour? That would be a reward for good works, so the Catholics and all conditionalists teach, which I have heard many times over from you and others here.

Some good and faithful brethren believe in unmerited favour that would be a gift to a neutral party, so we see the preservation of elect angels, yet cannot truly be applied to fallen man.

We hold to demerited favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel.

True grace is demerited favour without obligation, worth, or conditions. Works are totally excluded as far as our legal justification goes.

By God’s definition, grace and works are mutually exclusive by their definition (Rom 11:5-6). If a man works for righteousness before God, even by faith, it is debt and not grace (Rom 4:4-5).

Grace used as an acronym may properly define Biblical grace … God Rewards And Clears Enemies. Grace = God does not judge and punish the elect as they do deserve, but He does honor and reward them with blessings they do not deserve. And you think this doctrine is not taught in the scriptures, what bible are you reading from, or, do you just refuse to see this blessed truth.

One more thought and then I'll move on.

God’s legal grace that saves His elect is never frustrated; So it is the doctrine of grace that is frustrated.

Galatians 2:21​

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Frustrated grace, as Paul called it in Galatians 2:21, is man’s perversion of grace by adding things a person must do in order to be saved (Gal 1:6-9; 3:1). Since Jesus Christ finished the work of redemption on the cross (John 19:30; Rom 5:12-19; Hebrews 10:10-14), adding anything to His work frustrates the truth about God’s grace. Any conditions added to Jesus Christ’s finished work makes His death worthless by itself and causes men to fall from the right knowledge of the doctrine of grace (Gal 5:2,4). So, you are wrong concerning there's no doctrine of grace taught in the scriptures, you needs to reconsider what you have said.

Later, I have an appointment.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

No RB.
Listen carefully to me....
I'm interested in this verse which YOU posted and I have a question for you about it.

Here's your verse copied and pasted from your post:

Romans 8:29​

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”


Now...forget about what foreknow means.

This is my question for you:

WHAT did God pedestine?

What did GOD predistine . ITs very clear my friend .
THE WORD would become flesh , that CHRIST would be the savoir and that all who do
believe in HIM are conformed to his image .

 

[Marvelloustime]

What did GOD predistine . ITs very clear my friend .
THE WORD would become flesh , that CHRIST would be the savoir and that all who do
believe in HIM are conformed to his image .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Red Baker]

@Selah

Hello from sis Selah.
I hear what you’re saying, brother, and what you say is true … but consider that where I say “knew”, I am pointing to the foreknowledge of Almighty God.

Sorry "sister", Can I ask you a question? What was in God's foreknowledge that cause him to have an election of grace. Surely not anything good from man who apart from God only has his flesh, wherein dwells no good thing, per Paul.

I'll help with my understanding ~what God foresaw was that if he did not have an election based on grace alone, then NONE would have ever been saved from the lake of fire, which is the second death.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Studyman @GodsGrace since you gave Studyman agreement for his post. Not so sure what part you agreed with, but here is my answer.

Well, that's why we are here, not to accuse any of not seeking God's word only, but to point out their errors in what they have come to believe and to defend.

Concerning being a promoter of a specific sect, that is not so, since we have withdrawn from organized religions of the last days, totally, not part of any religious group, and certainly do not defend any one particular group/sect ~ From Soteriology, to eschatology, to church government, you name it, we seek only to follow the scriptures, God being our witness and we do so, with a clear conscience before God and the holy angles, and the spirits of just men/women who have gone on before us. You added:

"Everyone knows it"~how do you know that to be true? Besides Studyman, I'm not here to impress others, but to be found faithful before the God of heaven and the Lord Jesus Christ. Men are with you one day, and the next they might be against you, vain is the support of men ~ I'm willing to walk alone if need be, I do not need man's approval, nor do I seek it.

2nd Timothy 4:16​

“At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.”

You said: "is not my disagreement with you. But the Holy Scriptures disagreement with your religious philosophy."

That's why we are here, to help others to be more perfectly conform to the truth of the word of God; so, if you think I'm in disagreement with the scriptures, then prove it, it is just that simple. If you failed in doing so, and if you have truth, then you should be able to help those seeker for the truth, it is not that complicated Studyman.

When refuting men like you, we must be careful to divide your strawman arguments from what is actually being said that we disagree with; you and others are good at injecting arguments that we have never said and are not even debating.
By using Galatians 4 and speaking about returning to beggarly elements ~ we have never said, that God's judgments, Statues and laws are beggarly elements and neither did Paul. Let look at this verse, mainly the last half since the first half we have already covered and you said not a word concerning what we said, but, that's fine, let's move on.

Galatians 4:9~ But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?​

But now, after conversion to free grace in Christ, why return to fleshly acts of service? These Gentiles had been pagan idolaters, were converted to the gospel of Christ by Paul, and were now returning to Jewish legalism again by false brethren from Jerusalem.

There is nothing in this epistle about these Gentile converts returning to pagan idolatry. The context of the book drives our interpretation that they returned to Moses’ Law, not to pagan idolatry, for the whole theme is a blast against circumcision and Jewish legalism.

Do You have a problem with the term "returning" as though they left it? They were returning to a system of seeking to be accepted by their own works, which everyman by nature believes that they must do certain works on their own before God will accept them and impart eternal life to them. Do not be hung up on the word returning.

The weak and beggarly elements are fleshly rites of the Law (4:3; Col 2:8,20; Heb 9:10). You think they would be sick of carnal rites of worship after all they had been through! Whether pagan religious service or rites of Moses’ Law, why seek bondage again?

v10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.​

These are what they were returning to which Paul called weak beggaring elements. These are the days, months, times, and years of the Jewish calendar taught in Moses’ Law. These are not days, months, times, and years of pagan deities – proven by the book’s context. You, the SDA and Worldwide Church of God and other manmade cults love to bring Old Testament days, feasts, and other celebrations forward into the New Testament. God forbid! There is a revival today among Charismatics to dote on the tabernacle, furniture, and days ~ wasted time! Such days are matters of liberty: they cannot be required or connected to free justification by grace alone.
Included in the weak and beggarly elements are the dietary laws which Paul rebuke Peter in chapter two of this same epistle. They are matter of liberty, not NT commandments to abstain from certain meats. You said:

"that even a child can understand"~what a foolish statement! Truth comes by divine revelation, and even aged believers have trouble understanding truths, it does not come by anyone's intelligent, much more so by a child.

For sure, we teach two different gospels, I teach free grace without works; you have many works to be done in order for one to be justify and have eternal life at the end. I teach that Christ alone secured eternal life for each and every person given to him of His Father to redeem, and he will lose not one of them.

I have never said what you are saying that I do. Explain what you are hinting at.

Romans 3:9​

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;”

I do not know of anyone personally who does such a thing, that is ~ relegates folks who love God and seeks to do his commandments as being lost because of their DNA. I will say, that anyone who loves God, was first loved by God, or they would have never loved God and would have never sought to do his commandments apart from God showing mercy to them, nor could they have done so, being depraved from their mother's womb by having the fallen image of their father Adam, or simply put, inheriting Adam's fallen nature which nature is at enmity against the God of heaven.

"without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" All are visible so, until the Spirit of God comes and seeks them out those, those to whom where given to Christ to redeem, those children of Abraham's promises.

Luke 19:9​

“And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.” A spiritual son!

I agree with everything that @Studyman posted.
If you wish to discuss a particular topic,,,OK,,,
but I'm not responding to a post that is not specifically for me.....
maybe if you narrow it down a bit.

You DO love to talk!

 

[GodsGrace]

@Red Baker

Still waiting on a reply to my question in no. 1480......

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Selah

Sorry "sister", Can I ask you a question? What was in God's foreknowledge that cause him to have an election of grace. Surely not anything good from man who apart from God only has his flesh, wherein dwells no good thing, per Paul.

I'll help with my understanding ~what God foresaw was that if he did not have an election based on grace alone, then NONE would have ever been saved from the lake of fire, which is the second death.

What does the above have to do with God's foreknowledge?

You DO understand that what you wrote doesn't mean anything?

Read it again.

 

[Doug Brents]

Only in the context of Israel

The Church is NT Israel.

Wrong

if this is true, they are not gifts.

What stops a gift from being a gift just because it has a condition? We put conditions on the reception of gifts all the time. We give a gift on Christmas or birthdays, but you can't have it until the morning of that day. We give a car as a gift but you have to provide your own insurance before you can drive it, use it, get any benefit from it. Those conditions do not in any way negate the fact that the gift is a gift. Nor do they mean that you have "earned" the gift.

why do you think you can be so righteous you can earn your salvation?

I do not think I can be so righteous. I have sinned, and there is no hope for my alone. All my hope and trust rests on God who has offered to give me Jesus' righteousness, if and only if I am obedient to Him.

Do you literally think God is going to tell you welcome home, you paid for your sin by all your good deeds..

Absolutely not. He paid for my sin, and your sin, and the sin of Hitler, Jack the Ripper, and Saddam Hussein as well. But only those who obey Him receive the benefit of that sacrifice.

 

[Jim]

I have answered this already, but I feel the need to add a few things

"Verse 29 begins with the English word "for". That comes from the Greek word "hoti" meaning because or since. Amen Jim, and please do not forget that when you and I discuss Acts 2:38 again, where "for" is used in the sense "BECASUE OF".

The meaning of the English word "for" can take on many different meanings depending on usage. Dictionary.com lists 32 different meanings. The meaning of the word "for" in Acts 2;38 does not derive from the English; its meaning derives from the Greek word "eis" and it NEVER means "BECAUSE OF", NEVER!!!

Romans 8:28
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

I love the word "For" in verse 29, that takes us back to ~ "who are the called according to his purpose.”

That is not true. The word "For" in verse 29 does not take us back to "who are called according to his purpose" That phrase, "who are called according to his purpose", is parenthetical. The word "For" takes us back to "them that love God". Those "who are called according to his purpose" derives for those who love God. The "for" in verse 29 sets the basis for the specific process whereby those who love God are called. That process begins with God's foreknowing who would love God. Those whom God foreknew would love him are "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son". The process proceeds with those "whom he predestined" are called. And those he calle are also justified, and glorifed. But the whole process begins with those who love God. What he does for those he foreknows who will love him, that is, to predestine, call, justify and glorify, are specifically all the "things that work together for good".

Which proves that our works, including any work that we have an active part in does not have one thing to do with us being children of God, all glory belongs to Jesus Christ's redemption work for God's elect. I think this clearly point to men like you reading something into the scriptures that is not there in order to support what they have come to believe in, being so hard for them to let go of what they have accepted as truth, when in truth it is NOT God's truth from his word.

None of that is true. And that false concept is the result of the following false doctrine:

Jim, that is impossible for men in the flesh to love God apart from being first born of the Spirit of God and having a new man that can love, fear, and submit to God, but not until then...impossible.

As I have pointed out, if one were to obey God perfectly and completely except for one single instance of disobedience, he would still be accountable for failure and would become spiritually dead in his sin and would need to be reborn. It would be absolute idiocy to proclaim that one did not love God. As in your own relationship with your son or you with your own father. Your son having disobeyed you in one or more instances did not mean that he ceased loving you. The same could be said of your having disobeyed your own father. I can't count the number and ways for which I disobeyed my own father, but I never ceased loving him.

Moreover, spiritual regeneration is specifically a New Covenant action by God. It was not ever stated as being a part of the Old Covenant. It was a completely new feature established by Christ to occur following His ascension to the right hand of God and His sending the Holy Spirit as the Helper, the Comforter, promised by Jesus in John chapters 14-16. Under the New Covenant, the Helper, the Comforter, is promised to all as part of the salvation process for everyone whom God saves. Such a Helper was very selectively given at times to some very special individuals in the OT, but it was never promised to all believers, the remnant from the Old Covenant.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

That is, in my flesh. If this is true of Paul, then you must know that it is true of all of us, born through Adam's generation.

Red, you are not reading Paul correctly there. You deny what Paul says in the last half of that verse. In fact you deny much of what Paul is saying in the whole chapter. Paul says, " For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not" Paul says there that he really does want to do good.

The Calvinist/Reformed theology says that this chapter is the perhaps the strongest expression of the belief of the doctrine of Total Depravity. That is simply not true. In fact, Paul is describing his own being, his own condition, even after having been Justified and regenerated. He is describing himself as he is as he is writing, He says, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" His answer is "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin".

Is the one whom God has justified and regenerated still totally depraved? Of course not. But then he never was totally depraved. Depraved, yes, but not totally so. And even as Paul is writing the letter, he says he is depraved -- O wretched man that I am! It derives from the flesh, from being human just as Adam was created a human. It was Adam's flesh, as God created him, according to what Paul says here in Chapter 7. And the same with each of us. It is our flesh, our being human, just as God made us.

 

[Studyman]

Galatians 4:9~ But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?​

But now, after conversion to free grace in Christ, why return to fleshly acts of service? These Gentiles had been pagan idolaters, were converted to the gospel of Christ by Paul, and were now returning to Jewish legalism again by false brethren from Jerusalem.

What does it mean to be a Pagan Idolater? It means to serve gods that are no gods, Yes? According to the Jesus of the Bible, what god did the Pharisees serve? And whose Commandments did the Pharisees teach for doctrine?

Will Red answer?

There is nothing in this epistle about these Gentile converts returning to pagan idolatry.

Howbeit then, when ye "knew not" God, ye "did service unto them" which by nature are "no gods".

How is it not Pagan Idolatry to serve gods, that are not gods? Isn't that the very definition of Idolatry? If that isn't Pagan Idolatry, then what is?

"how turn ye again" to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Are these men not "returning again" to "Serving gods, that are not gods?

So your preaching that men who "Serve gods" that are not gods, are not engaged in Pagan Idolatry is utterly absurd.

The context of the book drives our interpretation that they returned to Moses’ Law, not to pagan idolatry, for the whole theme is a blast against circumcision and Jewish legalism.

LOL, there it is again. You actually are promoting that "Pagans", before they even knew the God of Abraham, and were serving gods that are not gods, were walking in God's Law, not Pagan Idolatry.

Paul doesn't say anything at all that even implies this. And the implication that the "children of the devil", as Jesus called them, were trying to convert others to God's judgments and His instruction in righteousness, is absurd.

Nevertheless, that is the foundation of your religious philosophy.

Do You have a problem with the term "returning" as though they left it? They were returning to a system of seeking to be accepted by their own works, which everyman by nature believes that they must do certain works on their own before God will accept them and impart eternal life to them. Do not be hung up on the word returning.

You mean they were following Paul's teaching about God, "Who will render to every man "according to his deeds". To them who by "patient continuance in well doing" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:,

"before they even knew God?"

Paul most certainly isn't teaching that Red.

The weak and beggarly elements are fleshly rites of the Law (4:3; Col 2:8,20; Heb 9:10). You think they would be sick of carnal rites of worship after all they had been through! Whether pagan religious service or rites of Moses’ Law, why seek bondage again?

And there it is. You are persuaded, and are preaching to others, that God's Laws, Judgments and Statutes that Jesus and Paul walked in, are no different , than Pagan high days and rituals.

Red Baker teaches that Gods instruction in Righteousness, that HE before ordained that His people should walk in them, are no different that Pagan rituals observed by men who serve gods, that are no gods.

Do you realize how wicked of a judgment that is towards God?

It's hard to get my mind around the fact that there are really men in this world, "Who call Jesus Lord, Lord", that teach that God's Laws, and Pagan rituals are no different one from another, and all are "Beggarly Elements". Do you really preach to your grandkids that Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread and God's Sabbaths, are no different than the Chinese Moon Festival, Pagan Gaelic high days, or the Egyptian Tekh Festival: The Feast of Drunkenness, "Yule" or "Day of the Dead"??

The "Feasts of the Lord" are "Shadows of things to come", Pagan festivals are "shadows of nothing". The Feasts of the Lord are created by the Spirit of Christ, pagan festivals are man made, inspired by the prince of this world. The Feasts of the Lord are Holy, "BECAUSE" they are Feasts of the Lord". Pagan high days are not Holy, BECAUSE they are NOT Feasts of the Lord".

You really should be ashamed of yourself for infecting so many people with such wickedness.

Clearly Paul doesn't believe or teach anything like this.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after "the tradition of men", after the rudiments of the world, and "not after Christ". 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

It's the tradition of men to despise God's Judgments and create their own, reject God's Statutes and create their own high days. Jesus never did this, but you do every day. Who do you believe had the Holy Scriptures written in the first place? If it wasn't the Spirit of Christ, then who was it?

Of course you will not answer, because you are on a mission to promote a religion that preaches God's Laws and Pagan rituals are no different one from another.

v10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.​

These are what they were returning to which Paul called weak beggaring elements. These are the days, months, times, and years of the Jewish calendar taught in Moses’ Law.

Jesus, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Moses, Malachi, Jeremiah, David, Paul, Stephen, Peter, James and Almighty God Himself, said the Pharisees and their fathers were given the Laws of God, but refused to walk in them, despised His Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths, and killed the Prophets who all taught to repent and "Yield ourselves" to God.

But now here comes Red Baker, teaching that these same Jews were trying to get the Galatians to obey God's Laws.

I simply pointing out that Paul is not teaching what you are promoting to others.

Heb. 9: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

There is nothing here concerning God's Sabbaths, Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread. This is speaking to the Levitical Priesthood that wasn't even "ADDED" until after God gave these Feasts of the Lord to His People.

You keep reading your personal bias against God and His Instruction in righteousness, into the few scriptures you can twist to support your rejection of them.

Now you are free to do as you please. The only reason I replied to you, is because you are preaching falsehoods about Christ, and the Words He spoke through Paul.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

You DO love to talk!

Just trying to cover bases and be as thorough as I can without saying too much.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The Church is NT Israel.

It is OT spiritual israel too.

But national Israel was given separate promises. The church did not take over these promises

What stops a gift from being a gift just because it has a condition? We put conditions on the reception of gifts all the time. We give a gift on Christmas or birthdays, but you can't have it until the morning of that day. We give a car as a gift but you have to provide your own insurance before you can drive it, use it, get any benefit from it. Those conditions do not in any way negate the fact that the gift is a gift. Nor do they mean that you have "earned" the gift.

lol.. If you want to use this to explain away you works based gospel. feel free

I do not think I can be so righteous. I have sinned, and there is no hope for my alone. All my hope and trust rests on God who has offered to give me Jesus' righteousness, if and only if I am obedient to Him.

You and Him

see what you did there.

It is not all God. it is you and God.

God will not share his glory with you my friend.

I was saved by grace through faith. not of works..

Absolutely not. He paid for my sin, and your sin, and the sin of Hitler, Jack the Ripper, and Saddam Hussein as well.

Yes. So sin can not condemn us anymore. If we receive his gift. If you have not received you gift. You will be condemned.

But only those who obey Him receive the benefit of that sacrifice.

obey him in the gospel. not obey him in the law

You want to be under law feel free.. Good luck though

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

What does the above have to do with God's foreknowledge?

You DO understand that what you wrote doesn't mean anything?

Read it again.

Sure it does, look at what she wrote to me and then it should be clear to you.

 

[JLB]

It's the same for the Author of the "commandments contained in ordinances" that created the "Wall of Separation" between Jews and Gentiles. There is not one place in the entire Bible where God rejects anyone "who yields themselves servants to obey Him". It doesn't exist in the Holy Scriptures. And you can't find even ONE Law, Commandment, ordinance or statute that God has Moses write, that teaches otherwise. And either can anyone else.

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Do you and your congregation obey this commandment?