Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

If trusting God is not a work,

its not a work

its the work of God we believe.

God draws us, God teaches us, God helps us understand, and then God tells us to make a decision.

we all will come to a point in our life where we must make a decision.

trust God or continue to trust self.,

then things we do that express that trust cannot be a work either.

what?

Something is being defined as "works" and trust is being excluded as "works."

a work is what you do to earn a reward or a wage.

what are you going on about.

oh wait. Its the calvin thing isn't it? like so many others in here. your just fighting evil calvinism?

step aside. and look not to fight calvins view. which I do not hold. and look at what the word says.

So anything based on trust must necessarily logically be excluded as "works."

There is a third position here you are excluding:

3. Trust cannot be passive mental assent but must include actions based on trust.

trust does show works

the theif on the cross showed his faith by asking Jesus to remember him

the tax collector showed his faith by calling out to Jesus

the people of Israel showed their faith by trusting God and looking to the serpent to live,

just like those today show they have faith by looking to the cross in faith and calling out..

thats the action god calls for. that is being obedient to the gospel

all other works are meaningless when it comes to salvation.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. (John 1:12; 3:18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12; 13:38-39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4 ; 1 John 5:11-13 etc..).

It does not get any narrower than that.

how can we claim we trust God. yet in every breath we take say we must work or do all these things, or we will not be saved.

its like listenign to main stream media today. or most liberal people who deny the truth, and buy the lie.. and can't see it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here's who are the hearers and not the doers:

1. A MEMBER WHO CLEARLY STATED THAT GOD CAN BE BLASPHEMED AND STILL BE SAVED.

2. A MEMBER WHO CLEARLY STATED THAT IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.

3. MEMBERS WHO POST VAGUE STATEMENTS ABOUT NOT HAVING TO DO GOOD WORKS.

4. MEMBERS THAT DO NOT POST THAT JESUS TAUGHT THAT GOOD WORKS ARE NECESSARY,,,AS ALSO THE OTHER WRITERS.

5. ANYONE THAT CLOUDS THE WORDS OF JESUS SO THAT NEW CHRISTIANS MIGHT NOT PROPERLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS EXPECTED OF THEM FROM GOD HIMSELF.


Clarity of what Jesus taught is vitally important for our salvation.
Any obscuring of this goes against what Jesus taught and is dangerous to salvation.

I do not know a person living who would fit any of those categories. have you met any? Do I know them?

But james spoke to them in james 1 and 2, Jude spoke of them in his epistle. calling them licentious, Peter called them out in 2 peter 2 as false teachers. and even paul called them out.

what sad is. You fight this false gospel. by doing 180 out. and instead of stopping in the middle where you need to be, you keep on going to a works based gospel which paul fought in all of his epistles.

James was fighting a licentious gospel (some say it was gnostic. i am not sure I agree) as did Peter and Jude

Paul fought legalism. or adding works to the gospel of Christ. those who say faith is great, but you must be circumcized. be baptized. Obey all these commands, follow all these traditions, if you do not , you might not get to heaven..

its amazing.. a licentious or easy believer as you just mentioned would call me lagalistic. Because if he were my disciplere. i would call him out for his sin, I would call him to grow. and I would call him to good works.

a legalist calls me licentious. because I refuse to claim that any works I do. or any amount of work I do will not determine my eternity.. My faith is in the work of God. not in my own works. They would call me a lover of sin, and falsely accuse me of saying works are not important. or required.

its sad..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How many verses do you need EG??

Gotta go.

1 would do..

how many do youneed to show that once a person is rescued from the penalty of sin. they will never perish, they will live forever. they will never be lost. they have been saved, they have passed from judgement to life etc etc..

not based on how good they are or how many works they do.

but based on Gods mercy and love

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Interesting that literally all I did was quote a Scripture word for word.

And you call it "twisting."

Think.

you posted it to support something that the word did not say.

now come on. I have been posting James word for word for days now and people have been saying I am twisting it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus NEVER said to just trust in Him.

yeah he did

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6..

I can go on and on and on

He said to ABIDE IN HIM.....
and
OBEY HIM.

yes. after we are saved by the promise he made in the verses above

Easy MMD.
All those verses, which you never post, absolutely will not mean what you think they mean.

Because,,,what Jesus taught is very simple....
and not burdensome at all.

Your right, it is not burdensome. for those who are saved and have his spirit in their hearts as a guarantee

 

[mailmandan]

Here-in lies another the problem.

(Jas 2:14) My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

Who does the saving? The Faith does the saving. You don't understand that it's the Faith that saves?

And how does the Faith save? With good works otherwise it's dead D E A D dead.

Faith that saves is in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9) We have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, then created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Works are not the source of life for faith just as fruit that grows on a tree is not the source of life for the tree. Life flows through the root of the tree and produces fruit. Just as faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Hence, faith without works is dead. Faith that merely claims to be genuine but produces no works (bare profession of faith) demonstrates that it's dead. We must not put the cart before the horse. The end result is salvation by works.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You said they committed lawlessness.

Then you said they trusted in their good works.

yes. those good works they claimed they did were lawlessness.

But they did not do them for the right reason

Good works are not lawlessness—these people know they were not committing good works at all.

They are if you are doing them to gain something for your self and not serve others.

That's the point of the passage—they had no good works.

Correct.

all the things they claimed they did they did to make themselves right with God. not to serve God or to love him, they had self as the motivation. not God. so even in those works., they practice lawlessness

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I already acknowledged that. That does not affect my statements.

You say it, then you deny it

If you don't understand Greek just say so and we'll move on.

I understand it well.

Here are my statements again:

and I showed you.

using your own words. "THE FAITH" refers back the faith faith that people SAID THEY had,,

ie. They said they had FAITH.... And can The faith" are one and the same faith

And james asked the question. can "the faith they claimed to have in essense0) save them

the answer is no

lets look at a better view using the same greek words

Verse 14​

What doth it profit? (τ οφελοσ. Rhetorical question, almost of impatience. Old word from οφελλω, to increase, in N.T. only here, verse James 2:16 (NAS)

If a man say (εαν λεγη τις). Condition of third class with εαν and the present active subjunctive of λεγω, "if one keep on saying."

He hath faith (πιστιν εχειν). Infinitive in indirect assertion after λεγη.

But have not works (εργα δε μη εχη). Third-class condition continued, "but keeps on not having (μη and present active subjunctive εχη) works." It is the spurious claim to faith that James here condemns.

Can that faith save him? (μη δυνατα η πιστις σωσα αυτον. Negative answer expected (μη). Effective aorist active infinitive σωσα (from σωζω). The article η here is almost demonstrative in force as it is in origin, referring to the claim of faith without works just made.

It does not get any more clear than this. Good find

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's exactly my point! You can view the Faith the same way. Can a dead faith do anything? No.

then it cant save

which is exactly what James was truyign to point out to the people

if you say you have faith, but you do not have the works that show that your faith was real. can that faith save you? No.

he is not saying we must have faith p0lus works. He is saving living faith will produce works. so if you claim you have this living faith. but do not have the works that you should have.

your faith is dead..

Paul said we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (living faith) NOT WORKS.. lest anyone should boast.

He also said if Abraham was saved by works he had something to boast about.. but not before God. for whoever works to them it is credited as debt..

James did not contradict paul. they are 100 % in agreement

Paul. Your saved by grace through faith those who are saved WILL do works.
James if you claim you have faith and are saved by grace, but do not have works. can that faith save you? no

its basic

grace plus faith = salvation

1 + 1 = 1

grace minus faith = no salvation

1 + 0 = 0

 

[Studyman]

It literally says the shadow was symbolic, not for health reasons.

I certainly agree, and have said that God has His Reasons for the Laws HE created that Jesus walked in. I was simply pointing out the reality of His Judgments. Certainly the world would be better off obeying God, in this respect. The oceans would be cleaner, men would be healthier, and God would be glorified "As God". I am waiting for the world wherein dwells God's Righteousness. But it isn't here yet.

What was "Symbolic" about the Law to "Abstain from drinking blood"? Truly there is a symbolism there. But it wasn't for men to engage in the literal tradition of "drinking blood". Otherwise the Apostles wouldn't have told the Gentiles to "Abstain" from the behavior.

Paul said every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused.

Paul also said, "Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Paul also said, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Is he preaching against his own preaching in 1 Tim. 4? You are implying that he is. Lets look at what Paul actually said, and see if he is preaching against his own preaching.

1 Tim. 4: 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which "God hath created" to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified "by the word of God" and prayer.

Yes, clearly there are people who profess to know God, that imply in their preaching that God's Word is the seducing spirit, promoting doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, when HE said to abstain from drinking blood, eating animals who have been strangled, and eating swine's flesh and snails, etc.

But I don't think Paul is teaching that the Holy scriptures he said were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, is the seducing spirits promoting doctrines of devils. I think Paul is speaking to this world's religious system, that "Come in Christ's Name", who promote religious traditions that full well reject God's Commandments, just as the religious system of the world of Paul's Time did.

For these reasons and more, I do not agree with this world's religion's interpretation of Paul's words here. It seems clear they twist Paul's words to justify their rejection of God's Judgments, in favor of their own.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There you go.....
You said:
"there will be many a people who thought their were holy because of all their good works. who will be told this same thing"

yes

many people like these think they are saved by how good they are. by their works. by what they do or do not do.

Just listen to what you wrote EG......
There are persons who did good works....
to whom Jesus will say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP WITH YOUR LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not say this, if you are not able to hear. then you need to back away

I DO GOOD WORKS EVERYONE IN MY CHURCH DOES GOOD WORKS. WHEN WE COME TO GOD. WE WILL NOT BOAST IN THESE WORKS AS A MEANS TO GET TO HEAVEN

WE DO THEM BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED, NOT TO GET SAVED

You make it sound like GOOD WORKS ARE USELESS.

Your not listening

to get to heaven, to save yourself. to be made right with God they are useless

to bear fruit. to do works for god. to become like Christ to grow in Christ they are required

Yes. This is what you and others make it sound like.
And it is DANGEROUS.

Now. What you teach is dangerous. because you teach we must work if we want to get to heaven

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ah, wow.

I had no idea you thought believing in OSAS is salvific, and the denial of OSAS puts a person in hell.

salvation is the gospel.

now do we believe salvation is eternal. like God said (eternal security)

or do we believe salvation is not eternal. that we must work to keep it.

those are two reactions to the gospel.

this is not an OSAS issue my friend. osas is a doctrine.. I could care less about OSAS. OSAS does not save anyone..

I've met some people like that but they are a lot more rare—it's an extreme version of it.

So everyone debating you in this thread, me included, is currently going to hell?

if your trusting in self and not God..then you tell me

Did I misunderstand you here, or did you mistype?

Here you are working hard to save our souls...

I am owrking hard like james did to get people to realise their faith is dead

I am working hard like paul did to stop being fools thinking they begin in the spirit (faith) but must perfect it in the flesh 9works)

I am working hard to get people to stop this calvin vs arminian debate which is one of the worst fights between people who call them christian I have ever seen, with the exception of the catholic protestant wars of the early reformation

it is so bad bpeople can not even hear what another person says. because they are fighting an sin.. and if a person believes this (like OSAS) they they are calvinist and I must attack and fight them at all cost.

even though the person they are attacking and falsly accusing are not calvinist.. but they can not see it because of their rage

Misguided, but a noble intention at least.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Poll for everyone that believes in eternal security in this thread, simple yes/no is fine:


Do you believe denying eternal security will put a soul in hell?


If you do you should work a lot harder to convince people of it........

if you believe that you are saved by faith plus works. you believe in one gospel

if you believes we are saved by grace through faith. and works have no bearing on our salvation, you teach another gospel

Paul said there is one gospel. not two..

both of these people will nto be saved. one group may be saved, or the other group may be saved, or they both may be wrong and there is another gospel which saves.

But paul made it clear. anyone who teaches another gospel should be accursed. literally damned

OSAS is the result of one of those gospels.. although like many terms, it can be misapplied or miscued. so the term itself is not salvation.

NOSAS is the rsult of the other gospel. but it to does not save

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here-in lies another the problem.

(Jas 2:14) My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

can the faith (THE FAITH THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE) save them

Who does the saving? The Faith does the saving. You don't understand that it's the Faith that saves?

do you understand that if you claim to have that saving faith. but you do not have that saving faith. it can not save you?

And how does the Faith save? With good works otherwise it's dead D E A D dead.

lol.. You have to get your good works in don;t you?

Paul said no works. He said works cancel grace
He said faith plus works literally equals works

You want to pit james and paul. feel free

I will keep my faith in God. God saved me, And because he saved me, he is working in my life to change me and make me look more like him

I pray you understand this one day

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Faith that saves is in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9) We have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, then created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Works are not the source of life for faith just as fruit that grows on a tree is not the source of life for the tree. Life flows through the root of the tree and produces fruit. Just as faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Hence, faith without works is dead. Faith that merely claims to be genuine but produces no works (bare profession of faith) demonstrates that it's dead. We must not put the cart before the horse. The end result is salvation by works.

Amen

it is all rotted in christ.

not in our good deeds.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

wow I finally caught up. that was alot!! need to take a break

 

[Affinity]

its not a work

its the work of God we believe.

God draws us, God teaches us, God helps us understand, and then God tells us to make a decision.

we all will come to a point in our life where we must make a decision.

trust God or continue to trust self.,

what?

a work is what you do to earn a reward or a wage.

what are you going on about.

oh wait. Its the calvin thing isn't it? like so many others in here. your just fighting evil calvinism?

step aside. and look not to fight calvins view. which I do not hold. and look at what the word says.

trust does show works

the theif on the cross showed his faith by asking Jesus to remember him

the tax collector showed his faith by calling out to Jesus

the people of Israel showed their faith by trusting God and looking to the serpent to live,

just like those today show they have faith by looking to the cross in faith and calling out..

thats the action god calls for. that is being obedient to the gospel

all other works are meaningless when it comes to salvation.

That's how it worked for me. One day I realized "God showed me" that my way was just not working. And His was always works. So I gave it a try and He completely changed my life. He pulled me out of so many negative things. Out of the shifting sand and put me on The Rock. I'm forever grateful. And my family were so happy for me.

I'm a new creation, no turning back.

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!” 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

[Affinity]

how can we claim we trust God. yet in every breath we take say we must work or do all these things, or we will not be saved.

its like listenign to main stream media today. or most liberal people who deny the truth, and buy the lie.. and can't see it

I read a post here that said:

How would you know if you had done enough work?

Found it.

• Post #211

 

[Studyman]

There you go.....
You said:
"there will be many a people who thought their were holy because of all their good works. who will be told this same thing"

Just listen to what you wrote EG......
There are persons who did good works....
to whom Jesus will say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

You make it sound like GOOD WORKS ARE USELESS.

Yes. This is what you and others make it sound like.
And it is DANGEROUS.

Yes, there is a lot of confusion concerning works in this world's religious system and you are definitely correct to question popular religious philosophy in the garden God placed you in, in my view, and good for you for doing so.

If I may, there is an often overlooked fact in Matt. 7 regarding the Prophesy Jesus told about the Judgment Day. "In that day" signifies the day Jesus returns to, as HE tells us in REV. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be"..

Some will be raised to everlasting live, and some to eternal death. There is to be a 1000 years between these two resurrections.

This is the time when men will be resurrected and talk to Jesus face to face. In Matt. 7:22, These men have already seen their judgment and they are pleading to the Judge, trying to get a reprieve. In essence they are saying, "Wait a minute Jesus, don't you know who we are?" We had I Jesus bumper stickers. We created a birthday for you. We created massive religious businesses all in your name. We fed random poor people and cast out demons all in your Name.

I have heard the foolish interpretation that these men where "bragging" about their good works, but that isn't what's going on at all.

"Many" will say to me "in that day", Lord, Lord, "have we not" prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These men are appealing their judgment. Like the Rich man, they see their predicament, they know the True believes have been with Christ for a 1000 years, and are appealing their judgment.

But here is what the Judge tells them.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

We all have "Works". We all "Yield ourselves" servants to obey something, someone. That is simply an undeniable fact of our existence.

The popular implication that works mean nothing is indeed a very dangerous philosophy. Good for you to recognize and point this out. Don't be surprised if your are demeaned or ridiculed by the promoters of this world's religious system.