Even in John 1, Jesus is not God
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101G
Well-known member
Can you see the same one person "My Lord" in Psalms 110:1 and the same "Lord" at the LORD right at verse 5 listen, Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."
here in verse 5 is the SAME "Lord" in verse 1, in emphatic form which is the "LORD" in verse 1.
The Lord:H136 ×Ö˛×Öš× Ö¸× 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually âYahweh God of Israelâ - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113
Do you see the same person in verse 1 as LORD and Lord.... (smile).
101G.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Whether you like it or not, Jesus is Jehovah: very God of very God!
These are the attributes of Jesus Christ:
* Saviour of the world -Acts. 13:47; Romans 10:9-12; 1Corinthians 1:30
* Son of God -Psalm 2:4, 89:26-27; Matthew 16:15-17; John 5:17-18
* Lord of lords -Revelation 17:14, 19:16
* King of kings -Ps 2:6; Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 2:2; Rev. 17:14, 19:16
* Word of God -John 1:1, 14; 1John 5:7; Rev. 19:13
* Has Divine Equality with the Father -John 8:58; John 10:10; John 14:9; Rev. 5:12-14; Rev. 21:23
* Almighty -Rev. 1:8, 15:3, 16:7
* The Shepherd -Ps 23:1, 80:1; John 10:11
* The Creator -Genesis 1:3; John 1:3-4; Colossians 1:15-18; Hebrews 1:2, 1-0; Rev. 3:14
*The is, and the was, and the is to come -John 1:1, 8:58; Hebrews 13:8 & Rev. 1:8 [are those of the Divinity]. Jesus, ergo, is very God of very God. Amen!
Christ, in Revelation 15:3, goes by the sobriquet Lord God Almighty; and Revelation 11:17 gives the same Lord God Almighty to the Father. Each of the two divine Beings is âWhich is, and which was, and which is to come.â Revelation 16:5 says of Jesus, âAnd I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.â The name or the title âLordâ in Hebrew is, most definitely, LORD (in capitals) and which is none other than âI AM THAT I AMâ âJEHOVAH. What does this say of those who are in Christ Jesus? They are in the safest hand of the Entity of whose immanent transcendentalism spans the eternity past, present and future, spiritually and physically. Their (the Christians) eternal lives reside in the Saviour, Jesus, very God of very God. Selah!
Which Is, And Which Was, And Which Is To Come. (seven)
Most enigmatic Personage to tread the surface of the earth (âŚcontinued from part sixâŚ) 7) Most people do not read the Bible to descâŚ
hoojewale.wordpress.com
Johann
Well-known member
âOneâ is heis in Greek, a neuter gender, meaning: âessence.â
The Greek for âGodâ is theos (the-osâ) â1. (properly, in Greek) a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity (real or imagined). 2. (by Hebraism, especially with á˝ ho (ho)(in this context) the one.) God, the Supreme Being, the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Yahweh by name.3. (figuratively) a supreme magistrate (in the land).â
The next word,âAlmightyâ is pantokrator (pan-to-kraâ-tĹr) âthe all-ruling, i.e. God (as absolute and universal sovereign).â Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty according to the discovery from Revelation 15:3. There is, no doubt, another Almighty in Revelation 16:7, âAnd I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.â This, contextually, is the Eternal, God the Father. How can there be two, epithetical âAlmightyâ Beings? John 10:30, âI and my Father are one,â is the scriptural answer.
The only reason why a Jehovahâs Witness Organization supposedly created Christ made the asseverative, âJesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Fatherâ of John 14:9, is simply because the Father and the Son constitute one worshipped God. The word âwhichâ âof Revelation 1:8â is an interesting á˝ ho (ho) ៥ he (hee) [feminine] ĎĎ to (toâ) [neuter (each with various inflections)] is a definite article â1. the.â The next word, âartâ is on (Ĺnâ) ousa (ouâ-sa) [feminine] on (onâ) [neuter] meaning: âbeing.â Now let us see âwastâ which is en (ayn): âI (thou, etc.) was (wast or were).â Put them together, this epithet is κιί ὠ៌ν kai ho en (kaiâ hoâ een) κιί á˝ ÎľĎĎĎÎźÎľÎ˝ÎżĎ kai ho erchomenos (kaiâ ho er-choâ-me-nos) and it translates: âthe one being and the one that was and the one coming, i.e. the Eternal, as a divine epithet of Christ.â
Abraham saw my day and he was glad
To prove His Almightiness made Him say: âVerily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I amâ (John 8:58). There is a marked difference between âwasâ and âam.â While âwasâ is ginomai (Ç°iyâ-no-mai) â1. to cause to be (âgenâ-erate).2. (reflexively) to become (come into being).3. (of events) to happen;â eimi (ei-miyâ) is âam,â meaning: â1. I am (i.e. I exist).2. (emphatically declaring oneself, following áźÎłĎ ego (e-ÄĹâ): âIâ) It is I Myself (see Matthew 14:27, Matthew 14:28 and Mark 6:50).3. (of God himself, following áźÎłĎ ego (e-ÄĹâ)) I AM (this is the comparable Greek form of Godâs Hebrew name, YAHWEH; compare Yhovah (yeh-ho-vawâ) Yhow (yeh-hoâ) [as a prefix] 1. (meaning) the self-Existent or Eternal, the I AM. 2. (person) Yahweh (Yehvah), Jewish national name of God. 3. (anglicized) Jehovah. 4. (as a name prefix) Yeho-. 5. (As expressed in Hebraic Koine Greek) áźÎłĎ ξ៰Οί -ego eime-, I AM (literally: I myself, I am).).â
Need I say more?
I remember in the Case for Christ, Lee Strobel interviewed someone who talked about the 'Jewish law of agency'... the agent being 'as the man himself' So when an agent for another delivers their message.. the agent carries the same authority. As if the message IS the agents.
They applied this to Jesus, when He was saying He does things 'by the hand of the Father' or 'the Father's Will' etc..
It is like He is a mirror image of the Father or Avatar of the Father in a way. What the Father does, Jesus does. The attributes of the Father, Jesus has.
People like to seperate Jesus from the Father by the way He refers to the Father this way.. but I think the Jewish way of looking at an agent.. they knew Jesus was claiming equality the Father.
They applied this to Jesus, when He was saying He does things 'by the hand of the Father' or 'the Father's Will' etc..
It is like He is a mirror image of the Father or Avatar of the Father in a way. What the Father does, Jesus does. The attributes of the Father, Jesus has.
People like to seperate Jesus from the Father by the way He refers to the Father this way.. but I think the Jewish way of looking at an agent.. they knew Jesus was claiming equality the Father.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Give some context to make it sound.
Versed one is the Lord's coronation being seated and crowned by the Father.
What does the next verse declare? Verse 2?
That now makes "my Lord" into Yahweh!
Why? Because Jesus will then be reigning as God over the earth for the Millennium with an iron scepter .
Yahweh/Jehovah/God shall stretch forth Your long scepter from Zion proclaiming rule
in the midst of Your enemies." Psalm 110:2
Psalm 110:2 is Jesus Christ at the 2nd Advent!
Whom will delegate the same authority to smash his enemies to those qualified to reign with Him.
The one who overcomes, and the one who keeps My deeds until the end, I will give him authority
over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are shattered,
as I also have received authority from My Father." Revelation 2:26-27
In Christ ..........
101G
Well-known member
100% correct. JESUS is LORD/Father/CREATOR and MAKER of ALL THINGS. and this Same one Person in the ECHAD, or in "Diversity" of his "OWNself" is Lord/Son/REDEEMER and SAVIOUR of ALL THINGS
Whether you like it or not, Jesus is Jehovah: very God of very God!
These are the attributes of Jesus Christ:
* Saviour of the world -Acts. 13:47; Romans 10:9-12; 1Corinthians 1:30
* Son of God -Psalm 2:4, 89:26-27; Matthew 16:15-17; John 5:17-18
* Lord of lords -Revelation 17:14, 19:16
* King of kings -Ps 2:6; Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 2:2; Rev. 17:14, 19:16
* Word of God -John 1:1, 14; 1John 5:7; Rev. 19:13
* Has Divine Equality with the Father -John 8:58; John 10:10; John 14:9; Rev. 5:12-14; Rev. 21:23
* Almighty -Rev. 1:8, 15:3, 16:7
* The Shepherd -Ps 23:1, 80:1; John 10:11
* The Creator -Genesis 1:3; John 1:3-4; Colossians 1:15-18; Hebrews 1:2, 1-0; Rev. 3:14
*The is, and the was, and the is to come -John 1:1, 8:58; Hebrews 13:8 & Rev. 1:8 [are those of the Divinity]. Jesus, ergo, is very God of very God. Amen!
Christ, in Revelation 15:3, goes by the sobriquet Lord God Almighty; and Revelation 11:17 gives the same Lord God Almighty to the Father. Each of the two divine Beings is âWhich is, and which was, and which is to come.â Revelation 16:5 says of Jesus, âAnd I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.â The name or the title âLordâ in Hebrew is, most definitely, LORD (in capitals) and which is none other than âI AM THAT I AMâ âJEHOVAH. What does this say of those who are in Christ Jesus? They are in the safest hand of the Entity of whose immanent transcendentalism spans the eternity past, present and future, spiritually and physically. Their (the Christians) eternal lives reside in the Saviour, Jesus, very God of very God. Selah!
Which Is, And Which Was, And Which Is To Come. (seven)
Most enigmatic Personage to tread the surface of the earth (âŚcontinued from part sixâŚ) 7) Most people do not read the Bible to descâŚ
the statement, "Has Divine Equality with the Father -John 8:58; John 10:10; John 14:9; Rev. 5:12-14; Rev. 21:23" 100% correct.
add "WITH" in these scriptures also. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
when One learn the difference between Ordinal First and Ordinal Last, then one will understand that JESUS is LORD and Lord.
Good spot there Johann, keep up the good work.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
GeneZ
Well-known member
Little confused with the use of "ordinal."
Correct me where I am wrong, please.
Does 'ordinal' not reference the presence of Christ from the 'first' moment in created time, to the 'last' moment in created time?
For there is no beginning of time when it speaks of His existence.
He exists outside of time, having in Himself no beginning, nor end, in reference to Himself.
In other words? Throughout history, ordinal means He is always being present.
Being God?: How does one refer to Him as eternally existing outside of time?
Eternally existing could not mean "first and last" as far as His being.
In other words? Ordinal means He is the creator of all things! From the first thing created, to the last.
Hmmmmmmm?
...........................................
"One" at John 10:30 and John 17:22 is "hen" which is in the neuter gender. "Heis" is in the masculine gender ("mia" - fem.).
Notice exactly who are "one" (hen) at John 17:22.
Even the trinitarian New Testament Greek scholar W. E. Vine when discussing the Greek word for âoneâ says: â(b) metaphorically [figuratively], union and concord, e.g., John 10:30; 11:52; 17:11, 21, 22....â - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 809.
The use of the neuter âoneâ (hen) at John 10:30 shows âone Godâ could not have been intended by Jesus but instead shows âmetaphorically, union and concordâ!
If we insist on supplying an âunderstoodâ âGod,â it must be at a place which uses the masculine form of âoneâ (heis) in gender agreement (cf. Mark 10:18; Ro. 3:30). Trinitarian scholar Robert Young commented on this knowledge of the word âoneâ at John 10:30 in his Youngâs Concise Critical Bible Commentary:
âThe particle en [hen] being of the neuter gender, can hardly signify âone being, i.e. one God,â but rather âone in will, purpose, counsel...â - p. 62, Baker Book House, 1977.
The very trinitarian Bible study reference book, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, agrees with trinitarian Young (above) in its discussion of John 10:30.
Truly, then, there is absolutely no evidence for a âtrinitarianâ interpretation at John 10:30. In fact, the real meaning shows Jesus is not God!
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Johann
Well-known member
GeneZ
Well-known member
John 10:30? context....
And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, ever. And someone will not snatch them out of My hand.
What My Father has given to Me is greater than all. And no one is able to snatch them out of the hand of the Father.
I and the Father are oneâ.
The Jews again carried stones in order that they might stone Him. Jesus responded to them, âI showed you many good works from the Father. For which work of them do you stone Me?â The Jews answered Him, âWe do not stone You for a good work, but for blasphemyâ even because You, being a human, are making Yourself Godâ.
Jesus is God manifested to men, as a man. He was being man and God interpreting God to men in a way that men can relate to!
Here is the problem.
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship
with the Father, has made him known. [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen;
He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]. John 1:18
No man can see/perceive God. For God is spirit.
For man to see God as God is would be like trying to shout to someone in outer space in the absence of air.
Nothing could be heard...
So? How is man to ever know God?
God the Son, who also shares in humanity, uses his humanity as the means to reveal God to men, as the Son interprets God to men in human terms.
Jesus being God and also humanity in absolute union, is God's perfect way to making Himself knowable to men.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Of course! The truth is simple. Jesus is not God. He is the son of God. At least, as far as Scripture teaches.
It's so entertaining how long the rationalizations are to twist things to be inside out and upside down.
I still have not got an answer to how anything can be with a thing and be that thing at the same time. Trinitarians capacity to rationalize is amazing.
101G
Well-known member
#1. no, Christ was to come. Jesus is present eternally. now as for Ordinal designation ... it shows position in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and or RANK. follow so for?
#2. he JESUS Alway existed. but not The Christ.
#3. again, ordinal identifies position. example, if you went into a building, just for argument sake ... it was ten floors tall. you get in the elevator. you want to go to the 5th floor. do you punch floor 1 plus floor 4 to get to floor 5? no ordinal numbers unlike Cardinal numbers, as here identifies or shows position. as in first and last...... here in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK.
understand, Jesus as Ordinal First, Rank "LORD", who is the FIRST FRUIT of this CREATION. note the term "Beginning" in Genesis 1:1
Beginning: H7225 ר־×׊×Ö´×ת re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218
note definition #1. "First", how? in time. also note in Genesis 1:1 in, in, in, the beginning, and not "at" the beginning. because God has no beginning. so "IN" the beginning is correct. the ORDER, is "FIRST", , the PLACE, is the "beginning" in this Creation, "RIRST" and God Rank here in the beginning is "LORD", the FIRST manifestation of God is by his Creation.
for "Lord" is to come, which is his OWN IMAGE to COME, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." note the term "figure" here.
G5179 ĎὝĎÎżĎ tupos (tĂŻâ'-pos) n.
1. a die (as struck).
2. (by implication) a stamp or scar.
3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue.
4. (figuratively) style or resemblance.
5. (specially) a sampler (âtypeâ), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning).
[from G5180]
KJV: en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print
Root(s): G5180
note definition #1. for the Ordinal Last was to die from the flesh that he took on and was not a Partaker of.
but definition #2. says it all. the STAMP.... the son, the Ordinal Last, or the express character who is the Ordinal First. scripture. Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
the express Image is G5481 ĎÎąĎικĎá˝ľĎ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a âcharacter,â the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso âto sharpen to a pointâ (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
Compare: G1125, G1504
there is that stamp ..... "THE PERSON". and express means exact..... here the exact same person is God himself, "shared in the "ECHAD", in flesh and blood.
see, this is why 101G say the Christ made nothing, but Jesus did. see, Jesus is the person, Christ is not the person, but the the IMAGE, the Shape, fashion, or star that the PERSON came in....... BINGO. understand the Christ was to die, as definition #1 states in G5179 ĎὝĎÎżĎ tupos (tĂŻâ'-pos) n.
1. a die (as struck).
2. (by implication) a stamp or scar.
3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue.
so God's Ordinal designations is in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK.
if you have further question, just ask.
101G
101G
Well-known member
One word "ECHAD". scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." now this, the revelation of With. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
the first is with the last? yes, because he is "also", Last, meaning the same one person. just as John 1:1 the Word was "WITH" God, and John 1:1c "and the Word was God". same one person. the beauty of the "ECHAD".
101G.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Even non-trinitarian, unbelieving Jews, knew what Jesus was making known to them about himself .
John 10:30 in context....
And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, ever. And someone will not snatch
them out of My hand. What My Father has given to Me is greater than all. And no one is able
to snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are oneâ
(Jesus was equating his hand
with being the Father's hand)
The Jews again carried stones in order that they might stone Him. Jesus responded to them,
âI showed you many good works from the Father. For which work of them do you stone Me?â
The Jews answered Him, âWe do not stone You for a good work, but for blasphemyâ even
because You, being a human, are making Yourself Godâ.
Wrangler? What was it? Did Jesus read his teleprompter wrong?His words made him out to be claiming to be God.
Its so simple even an unregenerate cave man could see it.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Albert Einstein said, âThe definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple.â
Other than posting what you did for someone having a penchant and love for "data collecting?"
Give me please one practical reason for someone to take the time to understand all of what you just said?
Seriously...
101G
Well-known member
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