Eternal Justification !

[brightfame52]

You also

May he also open your eyes to his desire to have mercy on all

Romans 11:32 (NASB 2020) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

Thats the elect in Rom 11:32 the same as the vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23 and they all shall obtain mercy out of their prison of unbelief,

Just like Paul did who was a vessel of mercy, he was saved out of it 1 Tim 1:13-14

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

So the all whom God has mercy upon they obtain mercy and are granted as Paul was by grace Faith and Love which is in Christ Jesus.

So Tom it depends if you or I are part of the elect whether or not we are of the all in Rom 11:32

 

[TomL]

Thats the elect in Rom 11:32 the same as the vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23 and they all shall obtain mercy out of their prison of unbelief,

Just like Paul did who was a vessel of mercy, he was saved out of it 1 Tim 1:13-14

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

So the all whom God has mercy upon they obtain mercy and are granted as Paul was by grace Faith and Love which is in Christ Jesus.

So Tom it depends if you or I are part of the elect whether or not we are of the all in Rom 11:32

Sorry there is no word elect in Rom 11:32

You are erasing what scripture states and inserting your own words

Not how one should handle scripture

Romans 11:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Red Baker]

Ephesians 2:1–3 (ESV) — 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.


it is not that they were only by nature children of wrath

A child of wrath is one who inherits wrath

Tom, you are not doing what all men of God do, when teaching, preaching to others the word of God~what they they do, that the devil's ministers fail to do? They failed, whether on purpose or not, God knoweth, they fail to read the scriptures distinctly, and then give the sense, so that the people can understand the meaning of what they are reading, hearing, without which, there's no progress toward understanding God's intended sense, everyone seems to think they are correct, which they are in their own eyes~but, truth is hidden from most, (Matthew 13: 11) especially so with men like you, who hates certain doctrines like God's grace withholden from some, and given to whomsoever God wills to give his truth to, according to the good pleasure of his will. Have you never read and consider:

Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."

You would be much wiser if you practice this, and so would they would believe your lies. Lies, because you fail miserably in properly practicing this godly method that all of God's ministers learn to do, many have learned the hard way, like myself for one.

Looking back on my fifty years of teaching, I can see where I could have been much more beneficial to my hearers if I had only applied myself more diligent in my studies and learned this important biblical Methodology in my twenties to my early forties, when I truly can say I begin to see the importance of practicing Ezra's methodology, and Paul's.

2nd Timothy 2:15~"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

If (most have at one point or another) we fail to practice this methodology, mark it down, we will be ashamed, maybe not at ourselves at the moment, but to others who know the truth we will be as they see our folly ~ and maybe to ourselves later, if we ever come to see our error, which I must honestly confess, I have over years on certain interpretations because failed to read distinctly and then give the scriptures their proper sense.

That being said, Paul qualified his statement when mentioning that the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience, worked in us since we too were by nature children of wrath, by Paul adding "by nature" proves that we were not so from eternity past because God loved us even when we were dead in sins! Just as the very next two scriptures said:

Ephesians 2:4,5~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

This cannot be said of all born of flesh, who are by nature children of wrath, and by God leaving them as vessels of wrath, (by withholding his mercy from them which he owes no man,) they will perish in their sins.

A child of wrath is one who inherits wrath

Yes, if God has not purpose to show mercy to them. The evidence of God showing mercy is faith and obedience to the word of God! But mercy must come first come to them in regenerating them, by giving them a new nature created after the image of Jesus Christ, which nature has the power to see, hear, obey and love God, and man.

but they were
at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

that is not a man who has been justified

Again Tom, you must put the proper sense of such words, phrases, etc, or, you will end up teaching lies and confusing God's childrens, which he doesn't take very lightly.

Eternally, we were chosen in Christ~Ephesians 1:4

legally our sins were paid for by Christ death, which alone secures our peace with God. (Colossians 1:20-22; Romans 5:10;

In time vitally, each elect sons are regenerated as sons~John 1:12,13; John 3:3-6

Concerning our practical salvation, the gospel call us to obedience. 1st Thess. 4:7; 1st Peter 3:6 . Each believers in time will join up with others believers to go in and out among them. (in THIS SENSE, some are in Christ, before others, but only in this sense. Yes, all come into fellowship at different times.

In the final phrase, all of our bodies shall be made incorruptible at the same time~Philippians 3:20,21; 1st Corinthians 15:43 at the last trump.

If there are other yet to be brought into Christ sheep fold, it only means that they have not as of yet come to repented, that's all it means. They have not as of yet experience their practical salvation of coming to the knowledge of who they are, and what they are heirs to, and how they should walk as heirs of God in this world, it means nothing else. Even when they do come, most all of God children are on different levels of their understanding and personal practical holiness. This will never change until we get our glorified bodies.

Sorry no you are not eternally in christ as the passage shows

Ephesians 2:11–12 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Reread my words above. It applies to such scriptures. It only means that God first visited the Jews, and then we went on a visit to the Gentiles and found us! Thank you Lord!

John 10:16​

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

one is not sealed in Christ until one believes

and that transpires in time

Our faith shows ownership, that we are of Christ's elect members of his body, he being the head thereof. Sealed in this sense:

Revelation 9:4​

“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

as some were in Christ before others effectively refuting your claim

Again, see above our comments.

 

[TomL]

but they were
at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

that is not a man who has been justified

Red Baker
Again Tom, you must put the proper sense of such words, phrases, etc, or, you will end up teaching lies and confusing God's childrens, which he doesn't take very lightly.

Eternally, we were chosen in Christ~Ephesians 1:4

Here you assume unconditional individual election before the foundation of the earth

The verse however is speaking of believers - men in Christ

it was determined that believers those in Christ would be chosen to be holy and blameless

It is not the selection of men unconditionally to be believers and saved

One is not in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

However you are not addressing the verse and simply running elsewhere

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

You are arguing basically this verse should be ignored because..........

that is not how you handle scripture

legally our sins were paid for by Christ death, which alone secures our peace with God. (Colossians 1:20-22; Romans 5:10;

Christ death was the legal grounds upon which sin could be forgiven but forgiveness is not had until one believes

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

You are ignoring the fact faith is required before one is justified

In time vitally, each elect sons are regenerated as sons~John 1:12,13; John 3:3-6

It is those who receive Christ who are regenerated in john 1:12

And if you follow john 3 to

John 3:9–15 (KJV 1900) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

you will see regeneration - life accrues to those that believe

see also

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

faith is always required before God gives life

Sorry no you are not eternally in christ as the passage shows

Ephesians 2:11–12 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Reread my words above. It applies to such scriptures. It only means that God first visited the Jews, and then we went on a visit to the Gentiles and found us! Thank you Lord!

Actually it shows those who are now believers were in the past

you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
They could not have justified being
separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
You are ignoring the actual words of the text and putting your own spin on them

John 10:16​

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

There is no reference there to eternal justification. That idea must be read into the text

Lets get back to the idea one must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What must one do according to the text to be justified by the faith of Christ?

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?

What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry there is no word elect in Rom 11:32

You are erasing what scripture states and inserting your own words

Not how one should handle scripture

Romans 11:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word elect doesnt always need to be present.

 

[Red Baker]

Here you assume unconditional individual election before the foundation of the earth

The verse however is speaking of believers - men in Christ

it was determined that believers those in Christ would be chosen to be holy and blameless

It is not the selection of men unconditionally to be believers and saved

One is not in Christ until they believe

Tom,

You do not understand how a debate should be carried on, or have understanding how a reasonable discussion should be done~you never attempt hear (if you can) my understanding or, take any scriptures that I used to disprove your position and show me why you reject what I have to say, you just simply reject others use of scriptures, and go right back repeating the same old lies that I have address and convinced I proved your wrong.

So, here's deal sir, I'm going to take faith and show you the role of faith in the doctrine of justification and if you will at least attempt to carry on a reasonable discussion, then we shall continue, if not, then I'll wash my hands clean of you, knowing I have at least attempted to talk with you concerning these things.

Later as time permits. RB

 

[TomL]

Tom,

You do not understand how a debate should be carried on, or have understanding how a reasonable discussion should be done~you never attempt hear (if you can) my understanding or, take any scriptures that I used to disprove your position and show me why you reject what I have to say, you just simply reject others use of scriptures, and go right back repeating the same old lies that I have address and convinced I proved your wrong.

What are you talking about I just addressed your objection to what you replied with

Here you assume unconditional individual election before the foundation of the earth

The verse however is speaking of believers - men in Christ

it was determined that believers those in Christ would be chosen to be holy and blameless

It is not the selection of men unconditionally to be believers and saved

One is not in Christ until they believe

Further you ran to Eph 1:4 after I quoted

but they were
at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

that is not a man who has been justified

that is not addressing the text that is using your understanding of another text to falsify the current text and assuming your interpretation of the other text is correct

that is not how you interpret scripture and that is not how a debate goes

You have not disproven anything

You need to actually address the text

How it may be stated they were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

and justified at the same time

you have not done so

So, here's deal sir, I'm going to take faith and show you the role of faith in the doctrine of justification and if you will at least attempt to carry on a reasonable discussion, then we shall continue, if not, then I'll wash my hands clean of you, knowing I have at least attempted to talk with you concerning these things.

Later as time permits. RB

Kindly address what was already posted

Lets get back to the idea one must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What must one do according to the text to be justified by the faith of Christ?

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?

What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?

 

[TomL]

The word elect doesnt always need to be present.

so you can just insert it where ever you like and assume unconditionally at the same time

They call that eiseggesis

 

[brightfame52]

so you can just insert it where ever you like and assume unconditionally at the same time

They call that eiseggesis

It doesn't have to be stated all the time. It's a given fact already

 

[TomL]

It doesn't have to be stated all the time. It's a given fact already

you mean it is assumed as it is never actually stated

 

[Red Baker]

Lets get back to the idea one must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

It is certainly your idea, and others, yet not the teachings of the word of God.

While we would agree based upon God's testimony that without faith one cannot know his free justification through Jesus' obedience, faith and righteousness.

John 20:31​

“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

God has given his word to his children, that they might believe that Jesus is the Christ~apart from the scriptures, truths would still be the truth, yet unknown by us~ the scriptures are only our source of information revealing to God's elect the hidden counsels of the Father for his chosen people~so, the scriptures was God's choice of imparting understanding to us concerning himself, and his works that he has purposed to do according to his own will. The scriptures were given that we might believe, and believing, we might have life (the sense meaning....we might have "the knowledge of the life we have by grace alone" ) through his name~that is: his faith, obedience and righteousness, not our works, since we were enemies when Christ reconciled his people to God~Romans 5:10. Not even born as of yet, before we had done any good, or evil in our own person~Jesus reconciled us to God legally when he cried out...IT IS FINISHED!

What must one do according to the text to be justified by the faith of Christ?

Do as in works? Nothing! The very book that Galatians 2:16 comes from is given over to warned us of not being bewitched by false brethren who were bent on corrupting the pure gospel of grace, laboring to convinced the saints in Galatia that they must DO, this, that, or the other before they can be saved, and then continue in the same! They were adding to the gospel certain works that they had to do in order for them to be commended unto God, as though they could do so perfectly through the energy of their own flesh, in the process of this rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ, whereby he secures eternal life for God's elect by his own life of perfect faith, and obedience. They were mixing their works in with what Christ did, making his life, death, to be in vain and frustrating the doctrine of free grace.

Now we will agree, faith is the medium through which we look to Christ and trust in him alone for our free justification, but this faith which God's elect have was secured for them by Christ and freely given to them so that they could trust in Christ for eternal life, and not in themselves. Consider:

Galatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Since you are adamantly set on man's personal faith as the means of his legal justification I want to consider the subject of faith as the word is used in the NT, in reference to Jesus and the doctrine of justification.

I will not get finished with one post, please allow me to finished before commenting, so you will have my overall thoughts on this subject, not totally, but enough.

How Faith is Put For Christ~I think most would agree that the word faith is used in different senses in the scriptures, therefore it is diversely understood, by most. Sometimes faith is meant for knowledge~Romans 14:22; Sometimes faith is meant for the doctrines of the scriptures~Jude 3; Sometimes faith is mentioned for the power to believe~Galatians 5:22; Sometimes, and quite often faith has reference to Christ, Romans 4:13; Galatians 3:16 with 11-23. In Galatians 3 around at least ten times in Galatians alone, faith has reference to Jesus Christ the true source of faith in this world, the very author and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:2.

I want to concentrate on the faith of Christ more, and why we believe in Christ, that we might be justified by his faith legally speaking and not our imperfect faith at it best and most holy (if such a thing can be said about mortal man) acts of faith.

In the scriptures what Is proper to Christ only is often attributed to faith as well to show our union with him in his faith which becomes our saving faith.

So the scriptures do oft give that to faith which is proper to Christ, as "we live by faith:" Gal.2:20; "by Christ," John 6:57.

"We have remission of sins by faith," Acts 13:38, 39; "by Christ," Eph. 1:7, Col. 1:14.

"We are justified by faith," Rom. 3:28, Gal. 3:24; "by Christ," Isa. 53:11, Rom. 5:9.

"We have peace with God by faith," Rom. 5:1,2; "by Christ," Eph. 2:3 and 3:12.

"We are sanctified by faith," Acts 15:9; "by Christ," Heb. 10:14, 1 Cor. 1:30.

"We overcome the world by faith," 1 John 5:4,5; "by Christ," John 16:33, 1 Cor. 15:57.

"We are the sons of God by faith," Gal. 3:26; "by Christ," Eph. 1:5.

We "have an heavenly inheritance by faith," Acts 26:18; "by Christ," Gal. 4:7.

"We have eternal life by faith," John 3:16~ it declaring a bible truth not conditions yo be meet by man. 1st John 5:11,12

"We are saved by faith," Eph. 2:8; " but by Christ's faith," and even in the context of Ephesians 2 is clearly seen to be Christ' faith not man's!

Later....RB

 

[brightfame52]

you mean it is assumed as it is never actually stated

It doesn't have to be stated all the time. It's a given fact already

 

[TomL]

It doesn't have to be stated all the time. It's a given fact already

Sorry, it's never stated. You eisegetically insert it

 

[TomL]

It is certainly your idea, and others, yet not the teachings of the word of God.

Sorry its scripture you deny

This what I quoted

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What must one do according to the text to be justified by the faith of Christ?

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?

What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?

While we would agree based upon God's testimony that without faith one cannot know his free justification through Jesus' obedience, faith and righteousness.

It's not about knowing it is about obtaining

Why have you not addressed a single verse I quoted above or answered a single question

You are simply avoiding scripture which is difficult for your position

Scripture never contradicts itself, so if you can not answer the above your view is an error

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, it's never stated. You eisegetically insert it

It doesnt have to say elect every time it means elect. Just like it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it means Sheep. For instance, Jesus specifically stated who He died for, the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 so its already plainly stated, hence it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it points out who Christ specifically died for, like here Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The many is the Sheep of Jn 10 it doesnt have to say it

 

[Red Baker]

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What must one do according to the text to be justified by the faith of Christ?

Tom, do you have a serious reading problem? Go back again and read #155 and then #162 where I have already dealt with this more than once. What you need to do is take what I said in rebuttal to you, and then try to prove me wrong, which you have not done and most likely not able to do.

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?

What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?

Again go to #173 where at length addressed your corrupt understanding, which you again, did not take what I said and at least try to show me why I'm wrong and your position is correct~I said many things in my posts to you that you never even acknowledge that you read, probably because have no answers, but at least you can show some honestly, which you are not even doing that.

Why have you not addressed a single verse I quoted above or answered a single question

Well Mr. truthfulness, I gave you references to the number of the posts, go and see and then say that. You cannot, and still be honest. You truly do not deserve the time of God's children who are known to be honest in their discussions with other. I'm still going to finish my thoughts on the role of faith in our justification, not so much for you, but for any that are lovers, and seekers of God's truths.

You are simply avoiding scripture which is difficult for your position

Listen at the snail calling the worm slimy! If a scripture(s) is difficult for me, or my position, then before God I would have no problem saying that it is. God is my witness, who are you calling to be your witness? If it is God, then we both better take heed that what we are saying is truthful, for he will not stand witness for liars, but will expose them for what they are worth.

 

[TomL]

Tom, do you have a serious reading problem? Go back again and read #155 and then #162 where I have already dealt with this more than once. What you need to do is take what I said in rebuttal to you, and then try to prove me wrong, which you have not done and most likely not able to do.

Utter nonsense

this is what you stated in post 155

How does our faith of believing in Christ related to Jesus Christ’s faith in God His Father? Faith neither regenerates us vitally, justifies us legally, or elects us eternally. It is for us. Our faith is the first act of a regenerated heart to lay hold of eternal life by God’s grace. Just as it was with Paul in Acts nine~no different with us.

To faith we add good works of seven fruits to prove election (2nd Peter 1:5-15; James 2:14-26). Faith does nothing more than any other good work of the new man (Ist Timothy 6:17-19). Faith, and the works that follow true faith, are the evidence of eternal life to our hearts. Paul and Peter gave up all hope in the Law to believe Jesus Christ alone for justification.

You made a bald statement which simply denied the text

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What must one do according to the text to be justified by the faith of Christ?

no answer

this is what you stated in 162

Tom, much in this post I have already address in posts: #155,156, 158, 159 which you have made no attempt to address. Though I'm not in a rush for you to do so, take your time and give it your best effort, because I want to see what you think you have ~ so far, you have not proven any of your points, actually they are very weak attempts to prove your system of works.

There's no problem on my part with any scriptures you come up with to not address them, for I certainly will do so.

I'll go back over this last post to see if there are new scriptures you want me to comment on, if so, I will.

You have not dealt with the fact one must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What must one do according to the text to be justified by the faith of Christ?

Post an answer according to the text instead of the bald denial of the text you posted

then you can address

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?

What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?

Again go to #173 where at length addressed your corrupt understanding, which you again, did not take what I said and at least try to show me why I'm wrong and your position is correct~I said many things in my posts to you that you never even acknowledge that you read, probably because have no answers, but at least you can show some honestly, which you are not even doing that

Sorry that is another false statement

This is what you stated

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

Those who know the truth deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

That is not what the text states there is nothing there about Abrahams faith being the spiritual evidence of salvation

you have denied and twisted the text

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham believed god and that belief was counted for righteous
belief preceded the declaration of righteousness
There is nothing in the passage about spiritual fruit of salvation

you are reading your theology into the text

What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?

What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?

read the verse

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

again belief precedes not follows righteousness

now if you do not care to actually address what the text states there is no point in discussing this

citing your theology is not addressing the text

 

[TomL]

It doesnt have to say elect every time it means elect. Just like it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it means Sheep. For instance, Jesus specifically stated who He died for, the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 so its already plainly stated, hence it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it points out who Christ specifically died for, like here Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The many is the Sheep of Jn 10 it doesnt have to say it

Sorry you can't just read your theology in where ever you like

He died for all



1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry you can't just read your theology in where ever you like

He died for all



1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It doesnt have to say elect every time it means elect. Just like it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it means Sheep. For instance, Jesus specifically stated who He died for, the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 so its already plainly stated, hence it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it points out who Christ specifically died for, like here Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The many is the Sheep of Jn 10 it doesnt have to say it

 

[TomL]

It doesnt have to say elect every time it means elect. Just like it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it means Sheep. For instance, Jesus specifically stated who He died for, the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 so its already plainly stated, hence it doesnt have to say Sheep every time it points out who Christ specifically died for, like here Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The many is the Sheep of Jn 10 it doesnt have to say it

In any words you believe you can add it when ever your lie

That is called eisegesis and a textbook example on how not to interpret scripture

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eternal-justification.1159/post-57549