Do Trinitarians really know their foundational core doctrines and their impact on their beliefs and others?

[Bob Carabbio]

Well, let's think about the pill the Catholics got you to swallow. The word "Father" is not a living being. You can't say there's three of me because I'm referred to as a son, brother, and uncle. So what is God? And please don't say Father. So we have...

Jesus
Holy Spirit
What's the third part_____________

P. S. The word God is not a living being. It's a name. You can't say one of me is Peter.

Chuckle!!! Word games!!!

I do wonder why my biblical insight is considered spinning my wheels.

You haven't demonstrated any "Biblical insight". Apparently all you want to do is destroy trinitarianism.

 

[Peterlag]

Chuckle!!! Word games!!!

You haven't demonstrated any "Biblical insight". Apparently all you want to do is destroy trinitarianism.

You call it a word game because there's no answer to that question because God is Spirit. That's what He is.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The word "Father" is not a living being.

Word games. God (the father) certainly IS a "Living being" a SPIRITUAL ONE to be sure. Jesus relates to Father God as a "living being" - his FATHER in fact. That you don't is unimportant.

I'll agree that the term"Person" doesn't really encompass all that the "Persons" of God are, BUT HEY!!!it's as good a "handle" as any for limited humans who really don't know SPIT in the absolute.

The Father, SON, and Holy Spirit all exhibit the attributes of "Personhood", so not entirely useless. That the "WORD" doesn't show up until John, and, of course JESUS came as a total surprise to the Jews, who used their "Theology" to murder Him.

You don't like the "trinity" concept. you're correct is saying that lots of other people don't. That's totally unimportant. Many people believe the earth is flat.

I have no issue with it, I don't claim to have full understanding of it, but I see it demonstrated in practical terms throughout the Scriptures even in Gen 1:1 linguistically.

 

[Peterlag]

Word games. God (the father) certainly IS a "Living being" a SPIRITUAL ONE to be sure. Jesus relates to Father God as a "living being" that you don't is unimportant. I'll agree that the term"Person" doesn't really encompass all that the "Persons" of GOd are, BUT HEY!!!it's as good a "hendle" as any, and the Father, SON, and Holy SPirit all exhibit the attributes of "Personhood", so not enmtirely useless.

You don't like the "trinity" concept. I have no issue with it, and I see it demonstrated in practical terms throughout the Scriptures even in Gen 1:1.

"Father God" are names. If I called you "father human" would any of those two names make up what you are?

 

[dwight92070]

I don't get the connection between knowing the Bible well and being proud. Were all the Apostles proud? Jesus too? He knew a lot.

You said "Your talking to one of the most knowledgeable guys in the world on the subject of the resurrected Christ. A person like me has never been easily tricked."

"This is what the Lord says: "Let no wise man boast of his wisdom" Jeremiah 9:23
The apostles and Jesus did not boast of their wisdom. What makes you think that you can without displaying pride?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Father God" are names. If I called you "father human" would any of those two names make up what you are?

Absolutely! I AM a "Father human" 4 times over. ALso a Grandfather Human, and a Great Grandfather human.

 

[Peterlag]

Absolutely! I AM a "Father human" 4 times over. ALso a Grandfather Human, and a Great Grandfather human.

You are not a father. That is a name... a title. You are flesh and blood and water and we call that human. Not a brother, son, father, or uncle. The doctor does not test your blood to see how your father or brother is doing in you.

 

[Peterlag]

You said "Your talking to one of the most knowledgeable guys in the world on the subject of the resurrected Christ. A person like me has never been easily tricked."

"This is what the Lord says: "Let no wise man boast of his wisdom" Jeremiah 9:23
The apostles and Jesus did not boast of their wisdom. What makes you think that you can without displaying pride?

So when someone is an expert in a field they should not say it or it only means they are filled with pride and not an expert? The next time you need an operation and the Doc says he's an expert. Seek out a cab driver for your operation because the Doc is just filled with pride.

What was Paul saying when he said, Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ?
What was Jesus saying when he said he was the son of God?

Full of pride right? Both of them.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You are not a father. That is a name... a title. You are flesh and blood and water and we call that human. Not a brother, son, father, or uncle. The doctor does not test your blood to see how your father or brother is doing in you.

MOre total foolishness!!! Good bye

 

[Complete]

No worries my sister.

101G agree for the sake of accuracy and truth. so will you consider this truth.

Hi @101G,

Yes, I would be glad to consider anything truth you wish to present.

1 Corinthians 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant." 1 Corinthians 12:2 "Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led." 1 Corinthians 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord." 1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." the same one person, worketh all in all. the million-dollar question is HOW.? the answer, "THE ECHAD" which is the Hebrew term, H259,​

H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.​

1. (properly) united, i.e. one.​

2. (as an ordinal) first.​

[a numeral from H258]​

KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.​

Root(s): H258​

​

notice definition #2. (as an ordinal) first. which is also the Ordinal Last. better known as the First/LORD/Father. and Last/Lord/Son, who is the same one person in Ordinal dispensations. this is what Echad means. that one Person, (the HOLY SPIRIT, God), hold both titles First/LORD/Father. and Last/Lord/Son.​

​

101G.​

'Wherefore I give you to understand,
that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:
and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. - (pnuema - G4151)
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. - (kurios - G2962)
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God - (theos - G2316)
which worketh all in all.'
(1Cor. 12:3-6)

* Thank you for pointing this out.

Within the love of Christ,
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

​

 

[dwight92070]

Peterlag said, "I will never understand how a guy like you could think I'm interested in gaining the approval of men. If I was that I would join your churches and fellowship with the men. Instead I stand alone serving the one true God."

You couldn't "join" our church, even if you wanted to. Having a church membership is not Biblical. We only need to "join" the Body of Christ through the new birth.

You said, "Instead I stand alone serving the one true God." Not THAT is an understatement. I'm sure you do stand alone - in fact, it must get very lonely, since you are the only one serving the one true God." One huge problem with that is that Jesus commanded us to "love one another" - not just those who agree with you. A church of one, is no church at all.

So, does that mean that you are not part of any church? Because that would be a violation of Hebrews 10:25.
My wife and I have been part of a homechurch for 23 years. We started with all of our five kids. Now they are all grown and living on their own.
Yes, we do fellowship with each other, not to gain approval from each other, but to obey Jesus and learn to love each other, and to grow spiritually together.

 

[DavidTree]

There are very few Trinitarians and even Binitarians for that matter who know the details of this doctrines and beliefs.

The trinity doctrine became the doctrine of the RCC by the end of the 5th century and later of the mainstream Protestants from the 16th century AD and on.

This god model with its incorporated core pivotal set of self-developing doctrines began in primitive forms during severe times of political and religious turmoil and persecution, over several centuries. The early Christians of the first century would not recognize most of these doctrines as the word of God.

Essentially, this god model states there always existed one eternal divine nature or essence or substance presented in the form or as part of three different and unique personalities or persons who collectively are called the one god or the triune god – a triad god. And it says that all three personalities operate interdependently as the one creator, the sovereign, the omnipotent, omnipresent ‘one’ god. And these three persons are labelled as three different roles or titled gods, although it insists they are not considered three separate gods. They are three person god titles in one strict order, as the first, the father, the second the son and third, the holy spirit.

Additionally, this god model calls for Jesus, as only being a divine person, acquiring or 'taking on' human nature through a process they call incarnation incorporated from Greek philosophy when he also donned human flesh and became a human male. And that means this person called Jesus after this process of incarnation of one divine hypostasis, is not or cannot be a human person under any circumstance. He was a human anhypostasis. Jesus had to be void of a human personality and therefore had no sense of human self or awareness, strictly speaking. And further, Jesus was also enhypostasis, his human nature was personalized to/into his divine person, as the 2nd person of the Trinity. And how all this occurred is fit for science fiction.

I hope so far all this is at least as clear as mud to everyone.

Deductively then, there are four outstanding points to be made thus far:

1. For this model to function, all three divine natured personalities must always function collectively, in-synch, transparently ubiquitously as one divine being of three divine persons else the triune god would fragment into separate person pieces. If just one of these cited three persons were not present, in synch or did not contribute to any action on this earth or in heaven, then their god would fragment into dust as certain myth.

2. For this model to function, Jesus Christ can only be a divine person and not a human person because then there could not be a triune god. Their triad or triune god would then become a quadrune god, of three divine persons and one human person.

3. For this model to function, Jesus Christ at some point in time acquired human nature besides divine nature, and therefore two natures in one divine person existed. And then at some later point in time discarded his human nature or kept it as dual natures in only one divine person. This would be critical in preserving the integrity of the triune god model. Does scripture ever remotely speak to this type of divine personality of Yahshua, the son of the true God.

4. For this model to function, Jesus must have pre-existed before he was incarnated into human flesh with the inclusion of human nature, absent of being a human person.

Now what impact does the presence of this type of Christian triune god have on scripture and the teachings of men and on people that receive this god? A great deal indeed! And we see the effects of this type of complex and undefined teaching today.

This is the reason for this thread, to list as many impacts caused by this triune god model on our beliefs, scripture, the teachings from religious writers and scholars, from Bible translators and from the orators who ride the pulpits on Saturdays and Sundays to many impressionable and ignorant human souls.

Does this god model bring folks close to the one true God, and does it really support the word of God when it says that Christ the Son of God clearly was born a HUMAN PERSON – a Son of MAN? According to John the gospel writer, this point is critical for belief for one’s salvation. One of the main threads and themes of the gospel of John especially, was to define and describe who was and is this man called Yahshua or Jesus - the true Son of God of a common born man.

the 'Trinity' comes from Genesis

Genesis is the Foundation for all scripture/prophets/OT/NT/Apostles/Revelation

Thusly, Elohim is PLURAL

 

[DavidTree]

Hi @101G,

Yes, I would be glad to consider anything truth you wish to present.

'Wherefore I give you to understand,
that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:
and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. - (pnuema - G4151)
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. - (kurios - G2962)
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God - (theos - G2316)
which worketh all in all.'
(1Cor. 12:3-6)

* Thank you for pointing this out.

Within the love of Christ,
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

​

Same God = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRT

 

[DavidTree]

If you could only present actual Scripture that states this in no uncertain terms.

GENESIS states that before Jesus humbled Himself and became a man, HE was GOD and still is GOD.

If you do not believe Genesis, you will never believe who Jesus actually is.

Listen carefully to the words of the LORD here in John ch5

“I do not receive honor from men.
But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?
Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

 

[360watt]

If Jesus is fully God, then their has to be a Triune God, since the Father is and the Holy Spirit is.

When Jesus said the Father is greater, He ascended to be one with the Father not long after. It was positional difference, not inferiority.

When He said no one has seen God..He was referring to the Father. Not that He Himself was not God.

He could forgive sin of those who had not offended Him personally, directly.

Ordinary people can't do that. Not seriously .

I can forgive Sarah who stole my pen. If she had stolen it from someone else and I said 'I forgive you' that would make no sense. She hadn't offended me. But Jesus did... and can now.

He holds the objective standard of stealing for Himself..the sin is against Him. That's the power of God.

 

[DavidTree]

If Jesus is fully God, then their has to be a Triune God, since the Father is and the Holy Spirit is.

When Jesus said the Father is greater, He ascended to be one with the Father not long after. It was positional difference, not inferiority.

When He said no one has seen God..He was referring to the Father. Not that He Himself was not God.

He could forgive sin of those who had not offended Him personally, directly.

Ordinary people can't do that. Not seriously .

I can forgive Sarah who stole my pen. If she had stolen it from someone else and I said 'I forgive you' that would make no sense. She hadn't offended me. But Jesus did... and can now.

He holds the objective standard of stealing for Himself..the sin is against Him. That's the power of God.

i love simple, Straight-Forward, Truth.

Thank You

 

[DavidTree]

If Jesus is fully God, then their has to be a Triune God, since the Father is and the Holy Spirit is.

When Jesus said the Father is greater, He ascended to be one with the Father not long after. It was positional difference, not inferiority.

When He said no one has seen God..He was referring to the Father. Not that He Himself was not God.

He could forgive sin of those who had not offended Him personally, directly.

Ordinary people can't do that. Not seriously .

I can forgive Sarah who stole my pen. If she had stolen it from someone else and I said 'I forgive you' that would make no sense. She hadn't offended me. But Jesus did... and can now.

He holds the objective standard of stealing for Himself..the sin is against Him. That's the power of God.

TRUTH Quest for @360watt , @Fred , @civic , @Wrangler

The LORD gave to us simple Straight-Forward(Upward) Truth that little children can understand.

i can think of many scriptures that proclaim the LORD Jesus Christ as God(Elohim/Plural),

HOWEVER, there is one very specific and overlooked verse/passage that makes a IRREFUTABLE declaration that LORD Jesus is God.

Can you find it???

 

[Peterlag]

There are very few Trinitarians and even Binitarians for that matter who know the details of this doctrines and beliefs.

The trinity doctrine became the doctrine of the RCC by the end of the 5th century and later of the mainstream Protestants from the 16th century AD and on.

This god model with its incorporated core pivotal set of self-developing doctrines began in primitive forms during severe times of political and religious turmoil and persecution, over several centuries. The early Christians of the first century would not recognize most of these doctrines as the word of God.

Essentially, this god model states there always existed one eternal divine nature or essence or substance presented in the form or as part of three different and unique personalities or persons who collectively are called the one god or the triune god – a triad god. And it says that all three personalities operate interdependently as the one creator, the sovereign, the omnipotent, omnipresent ‘one’ god. And these three persons are labelled as three different roles or titled gods, although it insists they are not considered three separate gods. They are three person god titles in one strict order, as the first, the father, the second the son and third, the holy spirit.

Additionally, this god model calls for Jesus, as only being a divine person, acquiring or 'taking on' human nature through a process they call incarnation incorporated from Greek philosophy when he also donned human flesh and became a human male. And that means this person called Jesus after this process of incarnation of one divine hypostasis, is not or cannot be a human person under any circumstance. He was a human anhypostasis. Jesus had to be void of a human personality and therefore had no sense of human self or awareness, strictly speaking. And further, Jesus was also enhypostasis, his human nature was personalized to/into his divine person, as the 2nd person of the Trinity. And how all this occurred is fit for science fiction.

I hope so far all this is at least as clear as mud to everyone.

Deductively then, there are four outstanding points to be made thus far:

1. For this model to function, all three divine natured personalities must always function collectively, in-synch, transparently ubiquitously as one divine being of three divine persons else the triune god would fragment into separate person pieces. If just one of these cited three persons were not present, in synch or did not contribute to any action on this earth or in heaven, then their god would fragment into dust as certain myth.

2. For this model to function, Jesus Christ can only be a divine person and not a human person because then there could not be a triune god. Their triad or triune god would then become a quadrune god, of three divine persons and one human person.

3. For this model to function, Jesus Christ at some point in time acquired human nature besides divine nature, and therefore two natures in one divine person existed. And then at some later point in time discarded his human nature or kept it as dual natures in only one divine person. This would be critical in preserving the integrity of the triune god model. Does scripture ever remotely speak to this type of divine personality of Yahshua, the son of the true God.

4. For this model to function, Jesus must have pre-existed before he was incarnated into human flesh with the inclusion of human nature, absent of being a human person.

Now what impact does the presence of this type of Christian triune god have on scripture and the teachings of men and on people that receive this god? A great deal indeed! And we see the effects of this type of complex and undefined teaching today.

This is the reason for this thread, to list as many impacts caused by this triune god model on our beliefs, scripture, the teachings from religious writers and scholars, from Bible translators and from the orators who ride the pulpits on Saturdays and Sundays to many impressionable and ignorant human souls.

Does this god model bring folks close to the one true God, and does it really support the word of God when it says that Christ the Son of God clearly was born a HUMAN PERSON – a Son of MAN? According to John the gospel writer, this point is critical for belief for one’s salvation. One of the main threads and themes of the gospel of John especially, was to define and describe who was and is this man called Yahshua or Jesus - the true Son of God of a common born man.

What I want to know is why are folks so gazillion percent sure that Jesus is God? Why did all their preachers buy into this concept? What does it produce? My take is the devil took the Christ right out of the picture by making him God. Then the devil wiped out the spirit of Christ by making it God. So what does that leave the Christian? What is there religion? If they don't know who the Christ is and they can't walk in the spirit. Then all that's left is to try to be good so God will like them. Where am I wrong?

 

[360watt]

What I want to know is why are folks so gazillion percent sure that Jesus is God? Why did all their preachers buy into this concept? What does it produce? My take is the devil took the Christ right out of the picture by making him God. Then the devil wiped out the spirit of Christ by making it God. So what does that leave the Christian? What is there religion? If they don't know who the Christ is and they can't walk in the spirit. Then all that's left is to try to be good so God will like them. Where am I wrong?

It's not about being good. No one, compared to God, is.

 

[360watt]

TRUTH Quest for @360watt , @Fred , @civic , @Wrangler

The LORD gave to us simple Straight-Forward(Upward) Truth that little children can understand.

i can think of many scriptures that proclaim the LORD Jesus Christ as God(Elohim/Plural),

HOWEVER, there is one very specific and overlooked verse/passage that makes a IRREFUTABLE declaration that LORD Jesus is God.

Can you find it???

John 8:57-58 KJV - 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.