Not every one of those people are making continuous weak arguments against Christ's deity though.
Do Trinitarians really know their foundational core doctrines and their impact on their beliefs and others?
- Thread starter APAK
- Start date
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
However since the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are there in the Bible big as life, efforts to deny the "Trinity" whatever it is, are like trying to teach a PIG to sin. You'll fail, and only irritate the pig.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
So go ahead and spin your wheels!!!! we'll just ignore you.
dwight92070
Well-known member
As I said in #202, people who reject the truth that Jesus is God are characteristically proud. And we know that pride goes before a fall.
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @101G,
I almost missed this! I am sorry to take so long to respond.
For the sake of accuracy and truth I believe we have to distinguish between the operation of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, regardless of the fact that it is One God operating: God in His wisdom has made this distinction and so who are we to not observe it. He is seeking to communicate to us, who live in time and space, whose minds are finite, so uses words and concepts that we can understand in order to do so.
I am happy to worship God, who has manifested Himself through the person of His Son, and by the operation of the Holy Spirit: and Who has, through the Lord Jesus Christ given me the right to call Him my Father, in His mercy, grace and great love. I cannot go beyond that, for I fear that I will go into a realm which is beyond me, and say something which will diminish the truth.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris
Peterlag
Well-known member
I don't get the connection between knowing the Bible well and being proud. Were all the Apostles proud? Jesus too? He knew a lot.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I do wonder why my biblical insight is considered spinning my wheels.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Well, let's think about the pill the Catholics got you to swallow. The word "Father" is not a living being. You can't say there's three of me because I'm referred to as a son, brother, and uncle. So what is God? And please don't say Father. So we have...
Jesus
Holy Spirit
What's the third part_____________
P. S. The word God is not a living being. It's a name. You can't say one of me is Peter.
Complete
Well-known member
Peterlag
Well-known member
Everyone knows my biblical data is strong. Like I said before I could put Christ himself in front of you and you would say I have nothing.
Complete
Well-known member
'And without controversy
great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.'
(1Tim. 3:16)
Peterlag
Well-known member
Well, let's see if I can come up with more of something of substance. How about this...
There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh”which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy”and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit”when the subject of a verse is God.
None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person”in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is“holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.
We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name“Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus”in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.
Peterlag
Well-known member
It is known all over the world that when people cannot win on the issue being discussed they often then attack the person personally. I'm very aware of this.
Complete
Well-known member
' Jesus saith unto him,
I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also:
and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto Him,
Have I been so long time with you,
and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.
Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me:
or else believe me for the very works' sake.'
(Joh 14:6-11)
I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also:
and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto Him,
Have I been so long time with you,
and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.
Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me:
or else believe me for the very works' sake.'
(Joh 14:6-11)
Complete
Well-known member
'By the Word (the Son) of the Lord (the Father)
were the heavens made;
and all the host of them
by the breath (or spirit) of His mouth.'
(Psa 33:6)
'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
Whom the Father will send in My name, (the Son)
He shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.'
(Joh 14:26)
'The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, (the Father) and joint-heirs with Christ;(the Son)
if so be that we suffer with Him,
that we may be also glorified together.'
(Rom 8:16-17)
were the heavens made;
and all the host of them
by the breath (or spirit) of His mouth.'
(Psa 33:6)
'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
Whom the Father will send in My name, (the Son)
He shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.'
(Joh 14:26)
'The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, (the Father) and joint-heirs with Christ;(the Son)
if so be that we suffer with Him,
that we may be also glorified together.'
(Rom 8:16-17)
civic
Well-known member
You do not know your church history as those who were taught directly by the Apostles taught Jesus is God.
Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, disciple of John the apostle. [30-107 AD]
He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end,” says Daniel the prophet. …
Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians
And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin, but without any intercourse of man. Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; . . .
Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians
If any one confesses these things, and that God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word, . . .
Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrneans
our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the firstborn of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, . . .
Ignatius, Epistle to the Tarsians
. . . He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things.
How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not 210 rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Ignatius, Epistle to the Philippians
And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.” …
... For “the Word became flesh.” For “Wisdom builded for herself a house.” And God the Word was born as man, with a body, of the Virgin, without any intercourse of man.
Justin - Dialogue with Trypho - [110-165 AD]
God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos;
“And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, . . .
Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 1 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John
Very properly, then, did he say, “In the beginning was the Word,” for He was in the Son; “and the Word was with God,” for He was the beginning; “and the Word was God, ” of course, for that which is begotten of God is God. “The same was in the beginning with God” …
Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 2 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John
Him who is God over all, since He is all Nous, and all Logos, … and has in Himself nothing more ancient or late than another, and nothing at variance with another, but continues altogether equal, and similar, and homogeneous, … And in what respect will the Word of God — yea, rather God Himself, since He is the Word . . .
Chap 17 Father of all is not to be regarded as a kind of compound Being, who 762 can be separated from his Nous (mind), as I have already shown; . . .he is Logos, must be perfect and impassible,… they are of the same substance with himself, should be perfect and impassible, …
Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 3 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John
For inasmuch as the Word of God was man from the root of Jesse, and son of Abraham, in this respect did the Spirit of God rest upon Him, and anoint Him to preach the Gospel to the lowly. But inasmuch as He was God, He did not judge according to glory, nor reprove after the manner of speech.
Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John
And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, … all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God.
He, therefore, who was known, was not a different being from Him who declared “No man knoweth the Father,” but one and the same, the Father making all things subject to Him; while He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, . . .
For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.
Theophilus To Autolycus - Book 2 - [115 -181 AD]
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.
Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not
found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam.
The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.
Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation To The Heathen - [153 - 217 AD]
Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power. . .. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, God and man.
He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who “was with God,” and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.
If it is thy wish, be thou also initiated; and thou shalt join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men.
Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor
God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.
Address Of Tatian To The Greeks – [110-172 AD]
God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. . . .And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission;
Chapter XXI.-Doctrines of the Christians and Greeks Respecting God Compared.
We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man.
A Plea For The Christians By Athenagoras The Athenian: [c.120- 180]
. . . But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. . . .Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?
…that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, the Father, and their distinction in unity; and who know 255 that the life for which we look is far better than can be described in words,
The Epistle Of Mathetes To Diognetus [c. 130 AD]
…but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts … but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-. . .by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, . . .This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God....
Peterlag
Well-known member
You do not know your church history as those who were taught directly by the Apostles taught Jesus is God.
Not according to this guy...
civic
Well-known member
my authority are the letters written which I quoted from their works.
101G
Well-known member
No worries my sister.almost missed this! I am sorry to take so long to respond.
101G agree for the sake of accuracy and truth. so will you consider this truth. 1 Corinthians 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant." 1 Corinthians 12:2 "Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led." 1 Corinthians 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord." 1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." the same one person, worketh all in all. the million-dollar question is HOW.? the answer, "THE ECHAD" which is the Hebrew term, H259,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258
notice definition #2. (as an ordinal) first. which is also the Ordinal Last. better known as the First/LORD/Father. and Last/Lord/Son, who is the same one person in Ordinal dispensations. this is what Echad means. that one Person, (the HOLY SPIRIT, God), hold both titles First/LORD/Father. and Last/Lord/Son.
101G.
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