Daniel's 70 weeks and the Messiah

[SteveB]

Such as

Are you not using a calculation of man to determine the period unto the messiah the prince

you wrote



A misidentification here invalidates any understanding of the prophecy

I'm using the 360/year day Hebrew calendar.
7 sevens and 62 sevens, for a total of 69 sevens.
69 sevens, each seven is seven years, based on Numbers 14:34, and Ezekiel 4:4-6
7 x 69 is 483.
483 years x 360 days/year is 173,880 days.


I provided a number of links that describe that.

Did you not read anything I sent?

 

[TomL]

I'm using the 360/year day Hebrew calendar.
7 sevens and 62 sevens, for a total of 69 sevens.
69 sevens, each seven is seven years, based on Numbers 14:34, and Ezekiel 4:4-6
7 x 69 is 483.
483 years x 360 days/year is 173,880 days.


I provided a number of links that describe that.

Did you not read anything I sent?

How did you determine that it came down to Christ entry into Jerusalem

You had to have a date for a starting point

Where did you get it from?

If that date is not correct, your idea Christ's entrance into Jerusalem was the period unto messiah the prince is mistaken

or should I say Anderson's date was mistaken

 

[SteveB]

How did you determine that it came down to Christ entry into Jerusalem

I have a novel idea.
Do your own research.

Hebrew Calendar

Clearly this is a problem for you.

You had to have a date for a starting point

Where did you get it from?

Where indeed.

If that date is not correct, your idea Christ's entrance into Jerusalem was the period unto messiah the prince is mistaken

How do you know that yours is correct.

or should I say Anderson's date was mistaken

And Philip Mauro could be wrong.
Along with Martin Anstey, and whoever else you'd use.

After all, if a lawyer can figure it out, why can't the 2nd asst. Commissioner of the London Metro PD, who was also an intelligence officer, theologian and writer?

Or aren't such people allowed to be intelligent enough to figure such things out?

Yeah. That's the only possible conclusion.
Robert Anderson just wasn't smart enough to handle it.

 

[TomL]

I have a novel idea.
Do your own research.

Hebrew Calendar

Clearly this is a problem for you.



Where indeed.

How do you know that yours is correct.


And Philip Mauro could be wrong.
Along with Martin Anstey, and whoever else you'd use.

After all, if a lawyer can figure it out, why can't the 2nd asst. Commissioner of the London Metro PD, who was also an intelligence officer, theologian and writer?

Or aren't such people allowed to be intelligent enough to figure such things out?

Yeah. That's the only possible conclusion.
Robert Anderson just wasn't smart enough to handle it.

Mauro does not use a calendar. That is the point. He does not depend on dates set by man. He accepts what the word of God states as to determine the starting point and the time Christ is introduced as the messiah

There are multiple chronologies, and they all differ from one another and all are dependent on history dates from non-Christian uninspired sources.

Instead of using man made calculated resources, forget them and appeal to the word of God to determine the events which start the clock and introduce Christ as the anointed one.

 

[SteveB]

Mauro does not use a calendar. That is the point. He does not depend on dates set by man. He accepts what the word of God states as to determine the starting point and the time Christ is introduced as the messiah

In the website I provided, he explains the problem with reality.
It's actually quite interesting.
You are trusting someone you don't actually know, from a period when such would require extended periods of time to do the calculations.
So, I call- BS!

There are multiple chronologies, and they all differ from one another and all are dependent on history dates from non-Christian uninspired sources.

Indeed, pity you've chosen to not read what I provided you.

Calendar Accuracy & Highlighted Dates

Instead of using man made calculated resources, forget them and appeal to the word of God to determine the events which start the clock and introduce Christ as the anointed one.

Since you can't actually describe what that means, and need to use ambiguity to make your point, I again call- BS.
The Bible doesn't actually detail the Hebrew calendar.

It describes the changing seasons - Genesis, using the sun, moon, and stars. It has 7 holidays, and adds Purim- Esther. It never actually mentions Hanukkah, which didn’t occur until the Maccabean revolt.
Purim isn't actually mentioned in the new testament. One undefined holiday is mentioned in John 10:22, and it's merely called- the feast of dedication.
Strongs is who defined it as Hanukkah.

There's no list of months, with the days included in each month.

So, it's not actually possible to do a detailed calculation. Vague and ambiguous calculations, sure.

Thankfully, there are people who have dedicated themselves to doing the calculations, and have given us calendars for such.

Like you on Mauro and Anstey, I have no idea who Beattie is. Never heard of him before a month or two ago. I merely searched "online Searchable Hebrew Calendar."
I added the "online Searchable" because Hebrew calendar brought up dozens of present day calendars which didn’t allow me go back in history.

As such, it allows me to see what the calculated dates were 1990 to 3000 years ago.

M. J. Beattie

01-20-2012

How Accurate is the Calendar at this Website?

The two calendars published at cgsf.org are the calendars of the Western world and of the mainstream Jews.




Hebrew years

The Hebrew calendar begins the counting of years (with year 1 AM) in the autumn of 3761 BC. Years evenly divisible by seven (such as year 5775, which begins in September of 2014) are regarded as Sabbatical land rest years. This numbering system has been attributed to the Seder Olam Rabbah of Rabbi Jose ben Halafta (c.160 AD). The AM designation stands for anno mundi (Latin for "in the year of the world"), indicating that the years were counted from creation. However, the Seder Olam chronology and hence the AM dates are off by about 160 years because the Seder Olam shrinks the Persian period to allow for an erroneous application of the seventy weeks prophecy. (The rabbis, in denial of Jesus as the Messiah, applied the seventy weeks (490 years) to the interval between the destructions of the first and second Jerusalem temples — instead of to the time from Ezra through Jesus.)

The “Hebrew” years shown on this web site match the Rabbinic calendar which has been in use by the majority of the Jews at least since the writing of Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah (1170‑1180 AD). (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar and related articles). This is a calculated calendar, with the beginnings of months and years established by Rabbinic rules for computation and “postponements” of new moons. The calculations result in months and years that approximate, but are not in complete harmony with the natural lunar and solar cycles.

The “Hebrew” years illustrated here prior to the time of Maimonides are hypothetical, superimposing the Rabbinic computations backward in time through 142 AD. Prior to 142 AD the same Rabbinic methods of computation are used here, except that a change in the arrangement of leap years was made to “correct” a presumed calendar drift, thus allowing for the calculated calendar to support a Wednesday, 31 AD crucifixion of Jesus Christ. (Whether Jesus actually died in 31 AD is another story. But while astronomical evidence would allow for a Wednesday Passover that year, the current Rabbinic computations, without any adjustment, would not.)

In reality, in ancient times the beginning of months in the Holy Land was determined (weather permitting) by the actual observation of the first visible lunar crescent. With two or three reliable witnesses, the day of the new moon was “sanctified” by the Jewish leaders so that the appropriate animal sacrifices and other offerings could be made at the temple. The message of the sanctification of the day was sent far and wide by signal fires and runners to keep all of the Jews in sync with Jerusalem — so that all could worship on the days that were sanctified and proclaimed based on the sighting of the new moons in Israel — so that all would gather for worship on the actual days on which the special holy day offerings at the temple were offered. (See http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/etm/index.htm The Mishna: Second Division: Appointed Times (Moed), Rosh Hashanah, Chapters 1 & 2).

The practice of establishing Hebrew calendar dates by calculation alone, apart from the observation of the lunar crescent, appears to date back to 358/359 AD, when Hillel II published his calculated calendar. In doing so, he abandoned the ancient practice of proclaiming holy time based on actual Mideast lunar sightings and evidence of the aviv (the ripening of the barley needed for the wave sheaf (omer) offering during the feast of unleavened bread). Hillel published the calendar calculations in response to Constantine's efforts to suppress Judaism by banning the sending of new moon and Aviv messengers.

The calculated Rabbinic calendar has long been considered “sacred” by some, assuming that its calculations and postponement rules were ancient, passed down from God, probably through Moses, or at least Ezra. But the historical evidence does not support this concept. And the Scriptures plainly say otherwise.

The astronomical information used in calculating dates for the Rabbinic calendar is ancient. The number used for the average length of time between molads (lunar conjunctions) is the same number used by Ptolemy (c. 90 – c. 168 AD) and Hypparchus (c. 190 – c. 120 BC); and it dates back to ancient Babylon (at least to 330 BC). The “Metonic cycle” (the close, but not absolutely perfect, correlation of 235 lunar months with 19 solar years) was understood in ancient Babylon as well, in the time of the Babylonian King Nabonassar (747 BC).

Daniel and his three friends, who were carried captive into Babylon in 604 BC, were chosen to serve in King Nebuchadnezzar’s palace because they were “young men… gifted in all wisdom, possessing knowledge and quick to understand… whom they might teach the language and literature of the Chaldeans… God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom… They served before the king. And in all matters of wisdom and understanding about which the king examined them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers who were in all his realm” (Daniel 1:4,17,19‑20). The “literature of the Chaldeans” included extensive astronomical diaries. Although some of them included comments about how certain astronomical phenomena were viewed as omens, these diaries were primarily records of science and history, not astrology. So we might speculate that Daniel and his friends may have been schooled in the knowledge of astronomy and could have contributed to the Babylonian database of eclipse records and to the understanding of the average month length that was computed from those records.

But the knowledge of the lunar-solar cycles and of the average length of time between lunar conjunctions was only a tool. It was not used to replace lunar sightings. The Babylonians were far too much in awe of the heavens for that.

The Jews knew that God “made the moon for seasons” (Psalms 104:19, Dby; compare Genesis 1:14), that is, for the determination of the appointed times of God’s feasts. The Hebrew word for “seasons” in these verses is mow‘edim, which means “appointed times” or “feasts”. That is how it is translated in Leviticus 23:4: “These are the feasts [mow‘edim] of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times [mow‘edim].”

Evidence in Jewish history is that the calendar, as long as the Jews lived in the Holy Land (both before and after the captivity), was not defined by calculation. Calculations were indeed made. But the Jewish writings say that the purpose of making calculations was to establish whether the witnesses of the visible new moons were fibbing — not to determine when months and years began. The “calendar” that was held sacred by both the Jews and the Babylonians was the one determined by the clock in the sky, not one created by the calculations of men.

It was the Roman Empire that set about to change the “times” of the calendar (Daniel 7:25), not the Babylonians. And it was during the Roman Empire that the determination of the Jewish calendar on the basis of crescent new moon sightings was suppressed.

The vast majority of the Jews keep their holy days according to the calculated “Hebrew” calendar illustrated on this web site, but a small number (such as the Karaites) have returned to the ancient practice of observing new moons from the Holy Land. As we look for the coming Messiah and the restoration of all things, we anticipate a time when all of the Jews (and all of the other descendants of Israel as well — yes, even the whole world) will do likewise.

“ ‘And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,’ says the LORD” (Isaiah 66:23).

“Thus saith Jehovah: ‘Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the ancient paths, which is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls’ ” (Jeremiah 6:16, Dby).

 

[civic]

Just like there is over a 2000 year gap between Christs 1st and 2nd Coming ( all the disciples were oblivious to this ) as they expected His literal Kingdom to happen and not His death. The same is with the 69th and 70th week. There is a time gap.

There is much biblical and historical evidence to support this view.

Also it's not one of those things I will divide over. The most important thing is to have our lamps full in expectation of His literal return as His 2nd Coming.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

I think there are the signs of the times that Jesus tells us about in Matthew 24 and there Apostles in their letters. We are to be ready in anticipation for His return as Imminent. Jesus taught this throughout His parables. So did there Apostles in their epistles. Be ready at all times and we do not know the day or hour. If they expected His return in their lifetime how much closer are we now ?

Personally I believe it's going to get allot worse but we can see the chess pieces aligning in the Middle East. Jesus 2nd Coming has everything to do with the nations who will be gathered together against Israel in the end just before He comes again to wage war with them. There are several OT and NT passages yet to be fulfilled that describe this time in our future.

hope this helps !!!

 

[SteveB]

I think there are the signs of the times that Jesus tells us about in Matthew 24 and there Apostles in their letters. We are to be ready in anticipation for His return as Imminent. Jesus taught this throughout His parables. So did there Apostles in their epistles. Be ready at all times and we do not know the day or hour. If they expected His return in their lifetime how much closer are we now ?

Personally I believe it's going to get allot worse but we can see the chess pieces aligning in the Middle East. Jesus 2nd Coming has everything to do with the nations who will be gathered together against Israel in the end just before He comes again to wage war with them. There are several OT and NT passages yet to be fulfilled that describe this time in our future.

hope this helps !!!

There are definitely signs of the times. Paul tells us that too. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.

 

[civic]

There are definitely signs of the times. Paul tells us that too. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.

Amen . I was just thinking about His return on my 25 minute commute to work yesterday. Couldn’t get it off my mind hoping it was soon.

Sometimes it’s so easy to get caught up in the temporal here.

 

[SteveB]

Amen . I was just thinking about His return on my 25 minute commute to work yesterday. Couldn’t get it off my mind hoping it was soon.

Sometimes it’s so easy to get caught up in the temporal here.

There are times when I find myself wondering about it, and find myself thinking- harpadzo.... what will this be like?
Will it be like a parent yanking their child off the other child they're fighting with, or something less "violent"....
I've wondered if it'll be like a translation from one realm into another. Not quite the jumping we often see in the movies, but you're walking along, and you step into the heavenly realm.
I've wondered what kind of activities I'll be doing when it happens. Jesus mentioned people working, sleeping and one is gone, and the other remains.
Which is exactly why I keep pointing to Luke 21:34-36.

 

[TomL]

In the website I provided, he explains the problem with reality.
It's actually quite interesting.
You are trusting someone you don't actually know, from a period when such would require extended periods of time to do the calculations.
So, I call- BS!


Indeed, pity you've chosen to not read what I provided you.

Calendar Accuracy & Highlighted Dates

Since you can't actually describe what that means, and need to use ambiguity to make your point, I again call- BS.
The Bible doesn't actually detail the Hebrew calendar.

You are missing the whole point. Calculations are not needed, The bible defines what happens. You do not need uninspired calculations and dates to confirm the bible.

 

[SteveB]

You are missing the whole point. Calculations are not needed, The bible defines what happens. You do not need uninspired calculations and dates to confirm the bible.

Yet you clearly need Mauro's, and Anstey's chronologies....

If what you're claiming is true, why do you use them to validate your opinions?

Something that strikes me is that Anderson's- The Coming Prince only got me curious. It never actually defined my opinions.

The further I dug into it, and once I started my own numeric calculations is when it became clearer.

I'm still satisfied with the end of the 69th week/seven, and the huge gap between the 69th and 70th, along with the 70th week/seven being the tribulation period.

I'm still satisfied with the Rapture/rapiemur/harpadzo being at some point before the beginning of the 70th week.
The only thing you've achieved here is to give me further information which is affirming what I was previously taught.
Your inability to actually provide me with anything beyond 2 names, and vaguely stated quotes (apparently), has merely given me cause to look more closely at the calendar I gave you a link to... several times.... check the accuracy article included, and then check the calculations referenced by Anderson, and corroborate them.

So, congratulations.
I really wished you would have provided the materials for me to do my own investigation.

Oh, by the way...

Just because I was on CARM doesn't mean that my practices are like those who you argued with there.

I was taught to provide supportive materials for my points. Which is exactly why I asked you to do likewise.

So, help me out with your opinions. Give me reasons why I should take Mauro, and Anstey seriously.

 

[TomL]

Yet you clearly need Mauro's, and Anstey's chronologies....

If what you're claiming is true, why do you use them to validate your opinions?

No I do not. The bible of itself is capable of defining what the events are.

That is why when you keep asking for calendar references I post scripture

 

[SteveB]

No I do not.

sorry not buying it.
remember... YOU are the one who accused me of using pagan chronologies.
I'd never even heard of the study of biblical chronologies until YOU brought Mauro and Anstey into the discussion.
and when I told you I never even heard of them, and had no idea what you were talking about, you just doubled down and reiterated your pagan chronologies accusation.
So... nope! Not buying that at all! You've repeatedly made too much of an issue with their materials and ideas, without any validation of them.

The bible of itself is capable of defining what the events are.

Indeed! Which is exactly why I have no problem whatsoever with the views I presently adhere to.

That is why when you keep asking for calendar references I post scripture

But you don’t.
You post quotes from Mauro and Anstey.
People who I'd never heard of before.

The irony to me is...

The people who told me about Anderson studied the writers of the era and I don't recall them ever mentioning either Mauro or Anstey. This strikes me as strange, because if they thought them worthwhile, they would have mentioned them.

So, again.... you have not helped yourself here... not in my opinion.

 

[SteveB]

Calendar Accuracy & Highlighted Dates

The Roman calendar is the calendar in common usage in the Western world today. It is a solar calendar with no correlation to the movements of the moon; it is based on the calendar established by Julius Caesar in 46 BC. Augustus Caesar later borrowed a day from the month of February to make the month named after him just as long as the one named after Julius. He also rearranged the lengths of the three months after August. With these slight modifications by Augustus Caesar, the 365¼‑day Julian calendar continued in use without further modifications until the time of Pope Gregory XIII. The Gregorian calendar, established by Pope Gregory in October 1582, adjusted the calendar to stabilize the dates of the equinoxes and solstices, and to compensate for the 10‑day drift of the vernal equinox away from the date on which it had occurred in the year of the Nicene Council (325 AD). Gregory’s revised calendar was readily accepted by the Catholic European nations, but was met with resistance elsewhere. The Germanic states finally accepted it in 1700. It was adopted by the English in 1752, by the Russians in 1918, by the Greek Orthodox Church in 1923, and by the Turks in 1928.



The Roman calendar on this web site is the Gregorian calendar from 1582 to the present and beyond. Prior to 1582, it is the Augustan version of the Julian calendar. In other words, it is not accurate for dates in Protestant countries from 1582 until they changed to Gregorian counting. Nor is it accurate for any time before the reign of Augustus Caesar (r. 27 BC–14 AD). (The calendar of Julius Caesar was only slightly different than what you will find here. Prior to that the Roman calendar varied greatly, and any “Roman” dates illustrated for such years are purely hypothetical.)

 

[TomL]

sorry not buying it.
remember... YOU are the one who accused me of using pagan chronologies.
I'd never even heard of the study of biblical chronologies until YOU brought Mauro and Anstey into the discussion.
and when I told you I never even heard of them, and had no idea what you were talking about, you just doubled down and reiterated your pagan chronologies accusation.
So... nope! Not buying that at all! You've repeatedly made too much of an issue with their materials and ideas, without any validation of them.

Er you quoted from Anderson and his calculations. Did you not know how he arrived at his particular events

Indeed! Which is exactly why I have no problem whatsoever with the views I presently adhere to.

But you don’t.
You post quotes from Mauro and Anstey.
People who I'd never heard of before.

The irony to me is...

The people who told me about Anderson studied the writers of the era and I don't recall them ever mentioning either Mauro or Anstey. This strikes me as strange, because if they thought them worthwhile, they would have mentioned them.

Mauro quotes scripture for the determination of the events not chronologies and dates from uninspired sources

So, again.... you have not helped yourself here... not in my opinion.

Well if it comes down to trusting uninspired dates and calculations from man or trusting how the word of God defines those events, I imagine the word of God would be considered definitive.

 

[TomL]

In the website I provided, he explains the problem with reality.
It's actually quite interesting.
You are trusting someone you don't actually know, from a period when such would require extended periods of time to do the calculations.
So, I call- BS!


Indeed, pity you've chosen to not read what I provided you.

Calendar Accuracy & Highlighted Dates

Since you can't actually describe what that means, and need to use ambiguity to make your point, I again call- BS.
The Bible doesn't actually detail the Hebrew calendar.

Indeed, so you are using uninspired sources for dates and calculations

The better way is to let the bible tell you what those events speak of and forget man made calendars and calculations

From scripture one can ascertain it is the decree of Cyrus which starts the clock.

One can also ascertain that unto the anointed one refers to Christ at his baptismal anointing

There is no need for calculation or employing uninspired dates and calendars

 

[SteveB]

Er you quoted from Anderson and his calculations. Did you not know how he arrived at his particular events

And? I didn't actually quote. I asked if anyone had read him, and mentioned the period of time he'd calculated.
A calculation that can be verified by anyone who can do mathematics or use a calculator.

Mauro quotes scripture for the determination of the events not chronologies and dates from uninspired sources

what made you think that Anderson didn't do the same?
Did Mauro or Anstey say that Anderson was using pagan chronologies?

Well if it comes down to trusting uninspired dates and calculations from man or trusting how the word of God defines those events, I imagine the word of God would be considered definitive.

Sounds like you're in exactly the same boat.
So dial it back and read Anderson for yourself.

I find it curious that the Hebrew calendar I provided a link to actually discusses the problem everyone is having... INCLUDING Mauro and Anstey.


M. J. Beattie
01-20-2012


How Accurate is the Calendar at this Website?


The two calendars published at cgsf.org are the calendars of the Western world and of the mainstream Jews.



Roman Years



The Roman calendar is the calendar in common usage in the Western world today. It is a solar calendar with no correlation to the movements of the moon; it is based on the calendar established by Julius Caesar in 46 BC. Augustus Caesar later borrowed a day from the month of February to make the month named after him just as long as the one named after Julius. He also rearranged the lengths of the three months after August. With these slight modifications by Augustus Caesar, the 365¼‑day Julian calendar continued in use without further modifications until the time of Pope Gregory XIII. The Gregorian calendar, established by Pope Gregory in October 1582, adjusted the calendar to stabilize the dates of the equinoxes and solstices, and to compensate for the 10‑day drift of the vernal equinox away from the date on which it had occurred in the year of the Nicene Council (325 AD). Gregory’s revised calendar was readily accepted by the Catholic European nations, but was met with resistance elsewhere. The Germanic states finally accepted it in 1700. It was adopted by the English in 1752, by the Russians in 1918, by the Greek Orthodox Church in 1923, and by the Turks in 1928.

The Roman calendar on this web site is the Gregorian calendar from 1582 to the present and beyond. Prior to 1582, it is the Augustan version of the Julian calendar. In other words, it is not accurate for dates in Protestant countries from 1582 until they changed to Gregorian counting. Nor is it accurate for any time before the reign of Augustus Caesar (r. 27 BC–14 AD). (The calendar of Julius Caesar was only slightly different than what you will find here. Prior to that the Roman calendar varied greatly, and any “Roman” dates illustrated for such years are purely hypothetical.)


Hebrew years


The Hebrew calendar begins the counting of years (with year 1 AM) in the autumn of 3761 BC. Years evenly divisible by seven (such as year 5775, which begins in September of 2014) are regarded as Sabbatical land rest years. This numbering system has been attributed to the Seder Olam Rabbah of Rabbi Jose ben Halafta (c.160 AD). The AM designation stands for anno mundi (Latin for "in the year of the world"), indicating that the years were counted from creation. However, the Seder Olam chronology and hence the AM dates are off by about 160 years because the Seder Olam shrinks the Persian period to allow for an erroneous application of the seventy weeks prophecy. (The rabbis, in denial of Jesus as the Messiah, applied the seventy weeks (490 years) to the interval between the destructions of the first and second Jerusalem temples — instead of to the time from Ezra through Jesus.)

The “Hebrew” years shown on this web site match the Rabbinic calendar which has been in use by the majority of the Jews at least since the writing of Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah (1170‑1180 AD). (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar and related articles). This is a calculated calendar, with the beginnings of months and years established by Rabbinic rules for computation and “postponements” of new moons. The calculations result in months and years that approximate, but are not in complete harmony with the natural lunar and solar cycles.

The “Hebrew” years illustrated here prior to the time of Maimonides are hypothetical, superimposing the Rabbinic computations backward in time through 142 AD. Prior to 142 AD the same Rabbinic methods of computation are used here, except that a change in the arrangement of leap years was made to “correct” a presumed calendar drift, thus allowing for the calculated calendar to support a Wednesday, 31 AD crucifixion of Jesus Christ. (Whether Jesus actually died in 31 AD is another story. But while astronomical evidence would allow for a Wednesday Passover that year, the current Rabbinic computations, without any adjustment, would not.)

In reality, in ancient times the beginning of months in the Holy Land was determined (weather permitting) by the actual observation of the first visible lunar crescent. With two or three reliable witnesses, the day of the new moon was “sanctified” by the Jewish leaders so that the appropriate animal sacrifices and other offerings could be made at the temple. The message of the sanctification of the day was sent far and wide by signal fires and runners to keep all of the Jews in sync with Jerusalem — so that all could worship on the days that were sanctified and proclaimed based on the sighting of the new moons in Israel — so that all would gather for worship on the actual days on which the special holy day offerings at the temple were offered. (See http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/etm/index.htm The Mishna: Second Division: Appointed Times (Moed), Rosh Hashanah, Chapters 1 & 2).

The practice of establishing Hebrew calendar dates by calculation alone, apart from the observation of the lunar crescent, appears to date back to 358/359 AD, when Hillel II published his calculated calendar. In doing so, he abandoned the ancient practice of proclaiming holy time based on actual Mideast lunar sightings and evidence of the aviv (the ripening of the barley needed for the wave sheaf (omer) offering during the feast of unleavened bread). Hillel published the calendar calculations in response to Constantine's efforts to suppress Judaism by banning the sending of new moon and Aviv messengers.

The calculated Rabbinic calendar has long been considered “sacred” by some, assuming that its calculations and postponement rules were ancient, passed down from God, probably through Moses, or at least Ezra. But the historical evidence does not support this concept. And the Scriptures plainly say otherwise.

The astronomical information used in calculating dates for the Rabbinic calendar is ancient. The number used for the average length of time between molads (lunar conjunctions) is the same number used by Ptolemy (c. 90 – c. 168 AD) and Hypparchus (c. 190 – c. 120 BC); and it dates back to ancient Babylon (at least to 330 BC). The “Metonic cycle” (the close, but not absolutely perfect, correlation of 235 lunar months with 19 solar years) was understood in ancient Babylon as well, in the time of the Babylonian King Nabonassar (747 BC).

Daniel and his three friends, who were carried captive into Babylon in 604 BC, were chosen to serve in King Nebuchadnezzar’s palace because they were “young men… gifted in all wisdom, possessing knowledge and quick to understand… whom they might teach the language and literature of the Chaldeans… God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom… They served before the king. And in all matters of wisdom and understanding about which the king examined them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers who were in all his realm” (Daniel 1:4,17,19‑20). The “literature of the Chaldeans” included extensive astronomical diaries. Although some of them included comments about how certain astronomical phenomena were viewed as omens, these diaries were primarily records of science and history, not astrology. So we might speculate that Daniel and his friends may have been schooled in the knowledge of astronomy and could have contributed to the Babylonian database of eclipse records and to the understanding of the average month length that was computed from those records.

But the knowledge of the lunar-solar cycles and of the average length of time between lunar conjunctions was only a tool. It was not used to replace lunar sightings. The Babylonians were far too much in awe of the heavens for that.

The Jews knew that God “made the moon for seasons” (Psalms 104:19, Dby; compare Genesis 1:14), that is, for the determination of the appointed times of God’s feasts. The Hebrew word for “seasons” in these verses is mow‘edim, which means “appointed times” or “feasts”. That is how it is translated in Leviticus 23:4: “These are the feasts [mow‘edim] of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times [mow‘edim].”

Evidence in Jewish history is that the calendar, as long as the Jews lived in the Holy Land (both before and after the captivity), was not defined by calculation. Calculations were indeed made. But the Jewish writings say that the purpose of making calculations was to establish whether the witnesses of the visible new moons were fibbing — not to determine when months and years began. The “calendar” that was held sacred by both the Jews and the Babylonians was the one determined by the clock in the sky, not one created by the calculations of men.

It was the Roman Empire that set about to change the “times” of the calendar (Daniel 7:25), not the Babylonians. And it was during the Roman Empire that the determination of the Jewish calendar on the basis of crescent new moon sightings was suppressed.

The vast majority of the Jews keep their holy days according to the calculated “Hebrew” calendar illustrated on this web site, but a small number (such as the Karaites) have returned to the ancient practice of observing new moons from the Holy Land. As we look for the coming Messiah and the restoration of all things, we anticipate a time when all of the Jews (and all of the other descendants of Israel as well — yes, even the whole world) will do likewise.


“ ‘And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,’ says the LORD” (Isaiah 66:23).
“Thus saith Jehovah: ‘Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the ancient paths, which is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls’ ” (Jeremiah 6:16, Dby).

 

[SteveB]

Indeed, so you are using uninspired sources for dates and calculations

Ah, but according to you, I'm using PAGAN chronologies.
So, why is Mauro and Anstey inspired, but Anderson is pagan?
Why are the simple mathematical calculations anyone else can do uninspired, but yours are inspired.
Every time you walk this dog, you're demonstrating that nobody except the Bible is inspired... i.e., theopneustos.

You and me, and Mauro and Anstey and Anderson are all uninspired.
Which means that your argument is uninspired.

The better way is to let the bible tell you what those events speak of and forget man made calendars and calculations

Which is exactly what I've done.
all i did with Anderson is ask if anyone read it, because it discusses the ideas of the "Coming Prince."

From scripture one can ascertain it is the decree of Cyrus which starts the clock.

and yet, Cyrus "started the clock" before the 70 years of God's judgment on Israel’s sin was up.
so, something else is going on with what Cyrus did.
oh... by the way...
Cyrus was a pagan.
so, his chronology is sourced from pagans.
darn those pesky facts ...

and for that matter...

The entire Persian empire was pagan.
As was Babylon, Greece, Rome, Byzantine, and every other empire on earth, except for Israel.
so.... by all means... please explain that pagan chronologies thing to me.
It seems like Mauro and Anstey are stuck with pagan sourced chronologies in exactly the same manner as you accuse me of, because I made mention of a book written by a Jesus follower from the 1890's.

One can also ascertain that unto the anointed one refers to Christ at his baptismal anointing

ironically, there's no reference to the time of year or even a year that he was baptized.
just that he was baptized before he began preaching.

In Matthew 3, we only have the statement...
In those days...
Mat 3:1 WEB In those days, John the Baptizer came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,
Same in Mark.... in those days...
Mar 1:9 WEB In those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

And in Luke we have a tie back to a pagan government official that nobody seems to be able to corroborate... oh well... it is after all pagan...
Luk 3:1-3 WEB 1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness. 3 He came into all the region around the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for remission of sins.

Then we see that Jesus shows up at some point, but no idea when...

Luk 3:21 WEB Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also had been baptized and was praying. The sky was opened,

There is no need for calculation or employing uninspired dates and calendars

Sure there are.
The gospels clearly fail to show when Jesus was baptized.
Even more curiously, Jesus tells most of the people whom the gospels describe, "don't tell anyone what I did for you here..."
So, the idea that the clock starts at his baptism is questionable.

Now... the question of it finishing at the day he arrives in Jerusalem, on the back of a donkey as prophecied in Zechariah 9

Zec 9:9 WEB Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion! Shout, daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King comes to you! He is righteous, and having salvation; lowly, and riding on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

I find it more reasonable to accept that as the end of the 69th seven.

It's the 10th of Nisan, and is when the lamb is to be brought into the house, to be examined for purity, according to Exodus 12.

The lamb of God, (John 1:29), is brought into the house of Israel and examined by the priesthood for defects, and none were found... as testified to by the pagan, Roman procurator... Pilate.

Mat 27:23-24 WEB 23 But the governor said, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they cried out exceedingly, saying, “Let him be crucified!” 24 So when Pilate saw that nothing was being gained, but rather that a disturbance was starting, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this righteous person. You see to it.”

Mar 15:14 WEB Pilate said to them, “Why, what evil has he done?” But they cried out exceedingly, “Crucify him!”

Luk 23:22 WEB He said to them the third time, “Why? What evil has this man done? I have found no capital crime in him. I will therefore chastise him and release him.”

Joh 19:6 WEB When therefore the chief priests and the officers saw him, they shouted, saying, “Crucify! Crucify!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no basis for a charge against him.”


It's curious that they didn't really find anything to accuse him of, and it was merely their rage against him..

Mar 15:9-13 WEB 9 Pilate answered them, saying, “Do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?” 10 For he perceived that for envy the chief priests had delivered him up. 11 But the chief priests stirred up the multitude, that he should release Barabbas to them instead. 12 Pilate again asked them, “What then should I do to him whom you call the King of the Jews?” 13 They cried out again, “Crucify him!”

Joh 19:6-12 WEB 6 When therefore the chief priests and the officers saw him, they shouted, saying, “Crucify! Crucify!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no basis for a charge against him.” 7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.” 8 When therefore Pilate heard this saying, he was more afraid. 9 He entered into the Praetorium again, and said to Jesus, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Pilate therefore said to him, “Aren’t you speaking to me? Don’t you know that I have power to release you and have power to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power at all against me, unless it were given to you from above. Therefore he who delivered me to you has greater sin.” 12 At this, Pilate was seeking to release him, but the Jews cried out, saying, “If you release this man, you aren’t Caesar’s friend! Everyone who makes himself a king speaks against Caesar!”

So, I'm thinking that by using a fallacious claim of pagan chronologies, you're completely missing the issue...

Persia is a pagan government. Rome is a pagan government.

Nobody documented when Jesus was baptized.

We actually do have a calculated calendar, which shows that Sunday was the 10th of Nisan and Wednesday night began the 14th of Nisan, which gives Jesus being crucified on Thursday afternoon. And we'd have 3 days, and 3 nights in the tomb.
Thursday night, Friday, Friday night, Saturday, Saturday night, and up nice and early on Sunday morning.
The calendar shows 31 AD/CE, which is the Hebrew year, 3791.


Better than a Friday crucifixion.

Calculating back 173,880 days... a 360 day year,, 483 years back to the Hebrew year, 3308, or, the Roman calendar year, 453/454 BC.

Since however this is far beyond Cyrus and is during the reign of Artexerxes I/Longimanus, a question about the history you're choosing remains.
Cyrus was King from 559 to 530.
70 years from the Jewish exile would be 516 (if they were exiled in 586, as is generally accepted.).

 

[TomL]

Ah, but according to you, I'm using PAGAN chronologies.
So, why is Mauro and Anstey inspired, but Anderson is pagan?
Why are the simple mathematical calculations anyone else can do uninspired, but yours are inspired.
Every time you walk this dog, you're demonstrating that nobody except the Bible is inspired... i.e., theopneustos.

You and me, and Mauro and Anstey and Anderson are all uninspired.
Which means that your argument is uninspired.

I don't know many times I have to say this. Do not interpret the prophesy by uninspired sources

Mauro's method is to use only scripture to determine the events in question.

Scripture shows Cyrus was the man who God elected to give the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

And scripture reveals Christ was the anointed at his baptism

It's that simple

It does not depend on man made dates and calenders. It does not depend on man's calculation