Daniel's 70 weeks and the Messiah

[SteveB]

Correct, the seven is taken to be a week of days or years, and that leads us to the 490 years in the 70 sevens. In verse 26, we are told that "Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off", but we are given more information in verse 27 we are told, "And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering".

which translation are you using?
mine says:

Dan 9:26-27 KJV 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And the people of the prince who shall come....
The prince who shall come is who makes a covenant with the many. The prince who comes is who breaks the covenant in the middle of the seven.
It's not the Anointed One who makes a covenant or breaks it.

Do you have an interlinear Bible?

Daniel 9:26 Interlinear Bible (KJV) - Hebrew Text and Lexicon

Read Daniel 9:26 KJV in the original and literal Hebrew text with Strong's Concordance to reference the Hebrew Lexicon. Discover the original meaning and context of Daniel 9:26 in the Hebrew language.

www.biblestudytools.com

How about a Strong's concordance?

Strong's Concordance of the Bible with Greek and Hebrew

Strong's Concordance combines the King James Bible version with Greek and Hebrew lexicons. The Exhaustive version is the most complete, easy-to-use, understandable concordance for studying the original languages of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

The words chosen for Messiah, and prince are different.
Messiah (Strong's # H4899), and nagid (nah-geed, Strong's # H5057).
Nagid is the word for chief, prince, ruler, leader.

In the middle of the 70th seven would be after the 62 sevens. Thus, there is no contradiction in moving Him being cut off to the middle of the 70th seven instead of putting it at the very beginning of the last seven.

After does not necessarily mean immediately following upon. My 69th birthday isn't immediately preceeding my 70th birthday.
There is a period of time between them.

Absolutely. Jesus came into Jerusalem on the Sunday just before Passover, which I believe started on Friday (being a High sabbath (John 19:31)), meaning that both Friday and Saturday were sabbaths.

are you acquainted with the Hebrew calendar/day?
based on Genesis 1, their day starts at sunset, and ends the following sunset.
it's not like the western day, midnight to midnight. "The evening and the morning were the .... day"

Thus, the Last Supper would have been on Wednesday evening, and He was crucified on Thursday and laid in a tomb before sundown that day. This allows Him to be in the grave "three days and three nights" as Matt 12:40 says.

Correct.

But as noted above, for Him to put an end to the sacrifice (which is represented by the tearing of the veil between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies) in the middle of the last seven, His ministry of three and a half years would have begun after the 62 sevens ended.

Nope.
But, as it's written, "in the volume of the book it is written of me", Psalm 40, and Hebrews 10, please provide the old testament references which corroborate this.

And then the last three and a half years would have been the time when the Apostles were preaching from Jerusalem before they were scattered by Saul.

Well, this is the first time I've ever heard that one.
Ever....
Do you have any passages that validate that one?

 

[Doug Brents]

which translation are you using?

I typically use the NASB, but sometimes use biblehub.com to compare versions. I try to stick with the versions that are toward the "word for word" end of the spectrum rather than the "word for thought" or paraphrase versions.

mine says:

Dan 9:26-27 KJV 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”"

And the people of the prince who shall come....
The prince who shall come is who makes a covenant with the many. The prince who comes is who breaks the covenant in the middle of the seven.
It's not the Anointed One who makes a covenant or breaks it.

I don't believe so. I think verse 27 goes back to talking about the Messiah, not the Prince.
"Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(27) And he shall confirm.--The subject of the sentence is ambiguous. Theod. makes it to be "one week." LXX. "the covenant;" others take it to be the Antichristian prince spoken of in the last verse, an opinion which derives some support from Daniel 7:25. According to this interpretation, the covenant refers to the agreement which the prince makes with the large number of persons who become apostates. But (1) the word "covenant" does not apply to any such agreement, but rather to a covenant with God, and (2) in Daniel 9:26 it is the people of the prince, and not the prince, which is the subject of the sentence. It is therefore more appropriate to take Messiah as the subject. During the last closing week of the long period mentioned, Messiah, though cut off, shall confirm God's covenant (comp. Daniel 11:22; Daniel 11:28; Daniel 11:30; Daniel 11:32) with many, that is, with those who receive Him. . . ."

Do you have an interlinear Bible?

Daniel 9:26 Interlinear Bible (KJV) - Hebrew Text and Lexicon

Read Daniel 9:26 KJV in the original and literal Hebrew text with Strong's Concordance to reference the Hebrew Lexicon. Discover the original meaning and context of Daniel 9:26 in the Hebrew language.

www.biblestudytools.com

How about a Strong's concordance?

Strong's Concordance of the Bible with Greek and Hebrew

Strong's Concordance combines the King James Bible version with Greek and Hebrew lexicons. The Exhaustive version is the most complete, easy-to-use, understandable concordance for studying the original languages of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

The words chosen for Messiah, and prince are different.
Messiah (Strong's # H4899), and nagid (nah-geed, Strong's # H5057).
Nagid is the word for chief, prince, ruler, leader.

After does not necessarily mean immediately following upon. My 69th birthday isn't immediately preceeding my 70th birthday.
There is a period of time between them.

Certainly. But in verse 24 we are given 70 sevens. That is one unit of time. That 70 is then broken into 7 sevens, and 62 sevens, leaving 1 seven. And in that last seven the covenant will be confirmed, the messiah will be cut off, and the sacrifice will be ended.

are you acquainted with the Hebrew calendar/day?
based on Genesis 1, their day starts at sunset, and ends the following sunset.
it's not like the western day, midnight to midnight. "The evening and the morning were the .... day"

Correct.

I am familiar with that convention in the Hebrew calendar.

 

[SteveB]

I typically use the NASB, but sometimes use biblehub.com to compare versions. I try to stick with the versions that are toward the "word for word" end of the spectrum rather than the "word for thought" or paraphrase versions.

Ironically, the only real word for word are the interlinears, which can be challenging to read due to the fact that not all languages translate directly into English.

I have a Bible app which affords me over 120 translations, including several interlinear Bibles.
When I updated my phone last year's, I grabbed maybe 35 translations, including 4-5 Greek and Hebrew interlinear Bibles for each language.

"Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”"


I don't believe so. I think verse 27 goes back to talking about the Messiah, not the Prince.
"Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(27) And he shall confirm.--The subject of the sentence is ambiguous. Theod. makes it to be "one week." LXX. "the covenant;" others take it to be the Antichristian prince spoken of in the last verse, an opinion which derives some support from Daniel 7:25. According to this interpretation, the covenant refers to the agreement which the prince makes with the large number of persons who become apostates. But (1) the word "covenant" does not apply to any such agreement, but rather to a covenant with God, and (2) in Daniel 9:26 it is the people of the prince, and not the prince, which is the subject of the sentence. It is therefore more appropriate to take Messiah as the subject. During the last closing week of the long period mentioned, Messiah, though cut off, shall confirm God's covenant (comp. Daniel 11:22; Daniel 11:28; Daniel 11:30; Daniel 11:32) with many, that is, with those who receive Him. . . ."

Yeah, part of the problem here is that I have a dozen different commentaries and they're all varying in ideas, thoughts, and amount of information contained. While they are commenting on the particular scriptures, such are impacted by their respective views on theology.
As such, it gets complicated really quickly.
I have 18 different commentaries and those are the older, out of copyright ones. There are others, much newer, still well within the copyright period, and they too have other, equally involved ideas.
Ever heard of David Guzik? He's got an online Searchable commentary, which is freely available.

Enduring Word - Bible Commentary Of The Whole Bible with Pastor David Guzik

A Bible Commentary by David Guzik's. A trusted resource for pastors, teachers, Sunday School teachers, and everyday Christians. Easy To Use | Always Free

enduringword.com

I'm not sure about Jon Courson's. Looks like his website includes all his Bible study sermons/lectures. https://www.joncourson.com/teachings

As a retired journeyman craftsman one of the common themes I came across in my work was that we used to say- get 3 journeymen in a room to discuss a particular problem, and each one will have 3 opinions.
The right one, wrong one, and their own.

I've heard something similar about rabbi's.

But for them it was more like several opinions.

I note that your commentator was defined online as a good conservative commentator in the 19th century.

Certainly. But in verse 24 we are given 70 sevens.

Yep.

That is one unit of time.

ah, ok. I get it.

That 70 is then broken into 7 sevens, and 62 sevens, leaving 1 seven.

yep.

And in that last seven the covenant will be confirmed, the messiah will be cut off, and the sacrifice will be ended.

But you don’t actually show in scripture where that's the case.
In the view that I hold, the Messiah is cut off after the 69th. Or, at the end of the 69th seven.
It's the culminating of the 7 sevens, and 62 sevens.
The 70th seven isn't given a start/termination date.
The fact that we're still here... that Israel is back in the land, that there's a group of people who are assiduously working on the archeology, equipment and various utensils, etc for building the 3rd temple, I'm more ready to accept the idea that Messiah was revealed at the end of the 69th, cut off for the sins of the people, Isaiah 53, and we're coming up on the opening of the 70th seven.
and it'll start with the signing of a treaty giving Israel the right to build the 3rd temple.
once it starts, you'll be able to actually count 1260 days... 3-1/2 years, to the day the "prince of the people to come" will break the treaty, stand in the Holy of Holies and declare himself as God. Then there will be another 1260 days... to the day Messiah sets foot on the Mt of Olives.

I am familiar with that convention in the Hebrew calendar.

Good. Thank you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ironically, the only real word for word are the interlinears, which can be challenging to read due to the fact that not all languages translate directly into English.

I have a Bible app which affords me over 120 translations, including several interlinear Bibles.
When I updated my phone last year's, I grabbed maybe 35 translations, including 4-5 Greek and Hebrew interlinear Bibles for each language.





Yeah, part of the problem here is that I have a dozen different commentaries and they're all varying in ideas, thoughts, and amount of information contained. While they are commenting on the particular scriptures, such are impacted by their respective views on theology.
As such, it gets complicated really quickly.
I have 18 different commentaries and those are the older, out of copyright ones. There are others, much newer, still well within the copyright period, and they too have other, equally involved ideas.
Ever heard of David Guzik? He's got an online Searchable commentary, which is freely available.

Enduring Word - Bible Commentary Of The Whole Bible with Pastor David Guzik

A Bible Commentary by David Guzik's. A trusted resource for pastors, teachers, Sunday School teachers, and everyday Christians. Easy To Use | Always Free

enduringword.com

I'm not sure about Jon Courson's. Looks like his website includes all his Bible study sermons/lectures. https://www.joncourson.com/teachings

As a retired journeyman craftsman one of the common themes I came across in my work was that we used to say- get 3 journeymen in a room to discuss a particular problem, and each one will have 3 opinions.
The right one, wrong one, and their own.

I've heard something similar about rabbi's.

But for them it was more like several opinions.

I note that your commentator was defined online as a good conservative commentator in the 19th century.


Yep.

ah, ok. I get it.

yep.

But you don’t actually show in scripture where that's the case.
In the view that I hold, the Messiah is cut off after the 69th. Or, at the end of the 69th seven.
It's the culminating of the 7 sevens, and 62 sevens.
The 70th seven isn't given a start/termination date.
The fact that we're still here... that Israel is back in the land, that there's a group of people who are assiduously working on the archeology, equipment and various utensils, etc for building the 3rd temple, I'm more ready to accept the idea that Messiah was revealed at the end of the 69th, cut off for the sins of the people, Isaiah 53, and we're coming up on the opening of the 70th seven.
and it'll start with the signing of a treaty giving Israel the right to build the 3rd temple.
once it starts, you'll be able to actually count 1260 days... 3-1/2 years, to the day the "prince of the people to come" will break the treaty, stand in the Holy of Holies and declare himself as God. Then there will be another 1260 days... to the day Messiah sets foot on the Mt of Olives.

That is a good interpretation given the interpretation that there will be a third temple, that there is a huge gap between the 69th and 70th seven, and that in the midst implies exactly in the middle of the last seven.
But, if that were the case, then His second coming would not be like a thief in the night. His coming would be calculable to the day. But in multiple places we are told that there will be no way of knowing when He will come. Everyone will be going on with their lives as if the end were not coming that day and everyone will be surprised, but some will be prepared and some will be unprepared. The prepared will be ready regardless of when He comes.

 

[SteveB]

That is a good interpretation given the interpretation that there will be a third temple, that there is a huge gap between the 69th and 70th seven, and that in the midst implies exactly in the middle of the last seven.

But, if that were the case, then His second coming would not be like a thief in the night.

Which is exactly why neither mid-trib, nor post-tribulation rapture works.
the only way it works to maintain the "thief in the night" is pretrib.
before the signing of the treaty to rebuild the temple.

His coming would be calculable to the day.

exactly why pretrib is so important to examine.

But in multiple places we are told that there will be no way of knowing when He will come.

Exquisite!

Everyone will be going on with their lives as if the end were not coming that day and everyone will be surprised, but some will be prepared and some will be unprepared. The prepared will be ready regardless of when He comes.

Ta-da!



Exackadackily!

Ok. Now that you see what we've been seeing for a very, very, very long time now... here's a link to a group that does research on this topic.
Now, I haven't vetted them beyond a cursory skimming, but it should give you some materials, Bible study, etc... to consider and examine, as Luke and Paul tells us-- Acts 17:11, and 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.

Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

www.pre-trib.org

 

[Doug Brents]

Which is exactly why neither mid-trib, nor post-tribulation rapture works.
the only way it works to maintain the "thief in the night" is pretrib.
before the signing of the treaty to rebuild the temple.

But His second coming causes the immediate and total destruction of the entirety of this universe (all of creation). If He returns pretrib, then there will be no trib.

exactly why pretrib is so important to examine.
Exquisite!
Ta-da!

Exackadackily!

Ok. Now that you see what we've been seeing for a very, very, very long time now... here's a link to a group that does research on this topic.
Now, I haven't vetted them beyond a cursory skimming, but it should give you some materials, Bible study, etc... to consider and examine, as Luke and Paul tells us-- Acts 17:11, and 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.

I will give it a look, but as I said, if Jesus returns pre-trib, then there won't be a trib. We are in the tribulation now. The tribulation will not be limited to seven years, but is the entirety of time between Pentecost and the unknown time of the second coming.

 

[SteveB]

But His second coming causes the immediate and total destruction of the entirety of this universe (all of creation).

Nope. Not sure where you get that. This is the first time I've ever heard this statement.

but the second coming sets a 45 day period of judgment of the nations. Matthew 25:31-46,
then the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth, aka, millennium.
after which, the devil is released to roam the earth and deceive the nations, getting one last battle against God. Read revelation 20.

then we go into the Great white throne judgment.

then a new heavens and earth are created. Revelation 21, Isaiah 65:17

If He returns pretrib, then there will be no trib.

not correct.

I will give it a look, but as I said, if Jesus returns pre-trib, then there won't be a trib.

Nope. The Rapture is essentially, a "snatch and run" event. He calls to us from the sky, we're taken up. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
Harpadzo. Ever hear about the recent spate of crimes in California, where groups of people come into a store, smash the cabinets and steal stuff, and run away?
While not specifically a criminal endeavor, Jesus is coming to do a smash and grab, taking his bride away from the earth.



the second coming is Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives. Zechariah 14:4.

two completely different events.

We are in the tribulation now.

nope. It doesn't start until the covenant with the prince of the people to cone is signed, allowing the temple to be rebuilt.

The tribulation will not be limited to seven years,

actually it will.

but is the entirety of time between Pentecost and the unknown time of the second coming.

Nope.
It's the final seven decreed upon the Jewish people, as stated in Daniel 9.

I have a question...

How many times have you read the old testament?

The whole thing is defined as a Jewish history event.

The church is a totally different entity, and has a different schedule than do the Jewish people.

As Romans 11 described, we're grafted into the tree.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nope. Not sure where you get that.
but the second coming sets a 45 day period of judgment of the nations.
then the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth, aka, millennium.
after which, the devil is released to roam the earth and deceive the nations, getting one last battle against God. Read revelation 20.
then we go into the Great white throne judgment.
then a new heavens and earth are created.

I though we had already been through this. The earth and all of creation will be destroyed at the second coming.
2 Pet 3:10-13 - "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."
The "day of the Lord" is commonly accepted as the time of the second coming. In it, the Heavens (first and second) will be destroyed, and the earth will melt and be destroyed. And in Rev 21:1 we are told that the New Earth comes because the Old Earth had passed away (not a renewed earth, but a New Earth).

not correct.
Nope. The Rapture is essentially, a "snatch and run" event. He calls to us from the sky, we're taken up. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
the second coming is Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives. Zechariah 14:4.
two completely different events.

That is a popular misconception, but not accurate to the totality of Scripture. Yes, we will be taken, the righteous dead first, then the righteous living. And we will proceed to the Third Heaven (where God lives, outside of the created universe) while the Old Heavens and Earth are completely destroyed (see above).

nope. It doesn't start until the covenant with the prince of the people to cone is signed, allowing the temple to be rebuilt.

Show the Scripture for this "treaty", please.

actually it will.

Again, please show me where this is stated in Scripture.

Nope.
It's the final seven decreed upon the Jewish people, as stated in Daniel 9.

That final seven has already happened. The 70 sevens was one unit of time that was divided into three units of time, but not spread out, still only one unit of time (the 70th followed directly upon the heels of the 69th).

I have a question...
How many times have you read the old testament?
The whole thing is defined as a Jewish history event.
The church is a totally different entity, and has a different schedule than do the Jewish people.
As Romans 11 described, we're grafted into the tree.

Yes, we are grafted into the tree, so that we become one "organism". The Church is Israel, because the individual branches of the Church have been grafted into the root that was Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, .... Only those of the Jews who believe in Jesus remain as part of that tree. Those who do not believe are cut off from the tree. Those of the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into the tree and those who do not believe are not grafted in. One tree, one Church, one people in Christ.

 

[SteveB]

I though we had already been through this. The earth and all of creation will be destroyed at the second coming.
2 Pet 3:10-13 - "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

You're literally the first person I've ever seen apply this to an immediate occurrence.. in over 46 years. Not one teacher... not even the ammillennialists, or the post millennialists.

The "day of the Lord" is commonly accepted as the time of the second coming.

I won't specifically state otherwise, but Amos 5:18-20 seems to state otherwise.

Amo 5:18-20 WEB 18 “Woe to you who desire the day of Yahweh! Why do you long for the day of Yahweh? It is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him; or he went into the house and leaned his hand on the wall, and a snake bit him. 20 Won’t the day of Yahweh be darkness, and not light? Even very dark, and no brightness in it?

In it, the Heavens (first and second) will be destroyed, and the earth will melt and be destroyed. And in Rev 21:1 we are told that the New Earth comes because the Old Earth had passed away (not a renewed earth, but a New Earth).

New earth... correct.

That is a popular misconception, but not accurate to the totality of Scripture.

what do you mean by totality of Scripture?

Isaiah 26:19-21 makes it easy.

Yes, we will be taken, the righteous dead first, then the righteous living.

read Isaiah 26:19-21, along with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

And we will proceed to the Third Heaven (where God lives, outside of the created universe) while the Old Heavens and Earth are completely destroyed (see above).

Show the Scripture for this "treaty", please.

Daniel 9:26-27

Again, please show me where this is stated in Scripture.

Here's an article that more fully explains.

What is the end times tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? | GotQuestions.org

What is the tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? What are the events that will occur during the end times tribulation?

www.gotquestions.org

That final seven has already happened.

Nope. Otherwise we'd be in eternity now.
I say eternity, because according to your way of looking at it, the final 7 years of Daniel's vision was finished at Paul's persecution of Christians. Then the millennium would have begun, that only lasts a thousand years, which would have finished around just before the Anglo-Saxon wars in Europe, and after the millennium, the great white throne judgment, then the new heavens and earth...
If you really think that this is the new heavens and earth we're living on, you have some bizarre ideas of, "wherein dwells only righteousness."

I do however have a novel idea.
Wait. Let history unfold, and either Jesus comes to take his bride, and you're alive to experience it, or, you live out your life, and die. At which point you'll be in heaven with Jesus, and you'll get to experience it from the other side.

just make absolutely certain that you do what Jesus says in Luke 19:13, and 21:34-36.

The 70 sevens was one unit of time that was divided into three units of time, but not spread out, still only one unit of time (the 70th followed directly upon the heels of the 69th).

Yep, 7, 62, and 1.
You haven't actually shown that the 70th already happened, but it's clear you're convinced it has and arguing with you about it isn't going to change your mind. If anything, you'll just become more ensconced and I have more important things to do.

Yes, we are grafted into the tree, so that we become one "organism".

a very unique organism.

The Church is Israel,

bingo! The church is NOT Israel.
it'll never replace Israel.
the church is a combination of Jewish people and is mostly Gentiles.
the church is the bride of Christ. Ephesians 5:26-33
Israel is the Wife of the Father- Hosea 2:19, Isaiah 54:5.

because the individual branches of the Church have been grafted into the root that was Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, .... Only those of the Jews who believe in Jesus remain as part of that tree. Those who do not believe are cut off from the tree. Those of the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into the tree and those who do not believe are not grafted in. One tree, one Church, one people in Christ.

When I ask you questions, I actually want an answer.
I have to deal with atheists about this, and it makes it impossible to get a fuller understanding of what you think, and why you think it when you fail to answer or ignore them. I've spent over 11 years on another forum talking to atheists, asking questions. They have been an extreme disappointment. Please don't follow their example.

 

[Doug Brents]

You're literally the first person I've ever seen apply this to an immediate occurrence.. in over 46 years. Not one teacher... not even the ammillennialists, or the post millennialists.

I am not sure why.

I won't specifically state otherwise, but Amos 5:18-20 seems to state otherwise.

Amo 5:18-20 WEB 18 “Woe to you who desire the day of Yahweh! Why do you long for the day of Yahweh? It is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him; or he went into the house and leaned his hand on the wall, and a snake bit him. 20 Won’t the day of Yahweh be darkness, and not light? Even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Read the context my friend. Why will the day of the Lord be so terrible for them? Because it brings judgement, not salvation. It brings calamity, not safety, because they are so wicked that even their worship is detestable to God.

what do you mean by totality of Scripture?
Isaiah 26:19-21 makes it easy.
read Isaiah 26:19-21, along with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

Not seeing what you think is in these two passages that is different from what I said in post 128.

Daniel 9:26-27

The "covenant" in Dan 9 is not a "treaty" between nations or between the prince and any people. The covenant is the NEW Covenant that Jesus made with Israel.

Nope. Otherwise we'd be in eternity now.
I say eternity, because according to your way of looking at it, the final 7 years of Daniel's vision was finished at Paul's persecution of Christians. Then the millennium would have begun, that only lasts a thousand years, which would have finished around just before the Anglo-Saxon wars in Europe, and after the millennium, the great white throne judgment, then the new heavens and earth...
If you really think that this is the new heavens and earth we're living on, you have some bizarre ideas of, "wherein dwells only righteousness."

No, the millennium does not follow immediately following Daniel's 70th seven. The tribulation is not just that seven years. The tribulation is not defined as a period of time anywhere. And the millennium is a figurative time, it is in Heaven with God, and will be a long and joyful time, but it won't even begin to compare to eternity.

I do however have a novel idea.
Wait. Let history unfold, and either Jesus comes to take his bride, and you're alive to experience it, or, you live out your life, and die. At which point you'll be in heaven with Jesus, and you'll get to experience it from the other side.

just make absolutely certain that you do what Jesus says in Luke 19:13, and 21:34-36.

Most certainly, we will not know the truth of any of this until He comes again. But as is pointed out in the pre-trib site you referenced earlier, we MUST evangelize the lost and keep ourselves ready for His return.

a very unique organism.

bingo! The church is NOT Israel.
it'll never replace Israel.
the church is a combination of Jewish people and is mostly Gentiles.
the church is the bride of Christ. Ephesians 5:26-33
Israel is the Wife of the Father- Hosea 2:19, Isaiah 54:5.

Jesus and the Father are one. They will not have two brides. As you said, the Church is a combination of the Jews and the Gentiles (who believe in Jesus). The Church is an outgrowth of the tree that is Israel, and so is the same "bride", but it does not "replace' Israel; it is Israel.

When I ask you questions, I actually want an answer.
I have to deal with atheists about this, and it makes it impossible to get a fuller understanding of what you think, and why you think it when you fail to answer or ignore them. I've spent over 11 years on another forum talking to atheists, asking questions. They have been an extreme disappointment. Please don't follow their example.

I didn't realize I had not answered a question. Sorry about that.

 

[SteveB]

I am not sure why.

I'm thinking that it's because you're the only one who actually believes it.
I mentioned it to my pastor this morning at men's breakfast and he immediately said you were wrong.
So, yeah... no idea where you get the idea that the world will be destroyed at the second coming.
It's clearly not what Peter is saying.

Read the context my friend.

I do, regularly. The pastors of all the churches I've ever attended, reading the bible for contextuality is an imperative.
We call it 20-20.
20 verses before and 20 verses after. We call it having 20-20 vision.

the context says you're wrong.
hermeneutics shows you are wrong.

Why will the day of the Lord be so terrible for them?

do you think YHVH is wrong in his description?
read the context.
20-20.

Because it brings judgement, not salvation.

What do you think is going to happen when Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives?
It says in Hebrews 9:28

Heb 9:28 WEB so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

It brings calamity, not safety, because they are so wicked that even their worship is detestable to God.

Why?

Not seeing what you think is in these two passages that is different from what I said in post 128.

Really?
Curious... they both describe the dynamic of the Rapture/rapiemur/harpadzo.

The "covenant" in Dan 9 is not a "treaty" between nations or between the prince and any people.

Feel free to read this commentary on Daniel 9.

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Daniel Chapter 9

David Guzik commentary on Daniel 9 describes the prayer of Daniel for forgiveness and restoration for Jerusalem, and his prophecy of the Seventy Weeks.

enduringword.com

The covenant is the NEW Covenant that Jesus made with Israel.

There is a new covenant that Jesus makes with Israel. It's not the Daniel 9:26-27 one.
You're talking apples and oranges.

No, the millennium does not follow immediately following Daniel's 70th seven.

thank God it's his calendar isn't ours.
according to Daniel 12,
Dan 12:10-12 WEB 10 Many will purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined, but the wicked will do wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Daniel Chapter 12

David Guzik commentary on Daniel 12 describes a time of future trouble destined for Israel, and the resolution of resurrection.

enduringword.com

at 1290 days, from the time the burnt offerings are removed and the abomination that makes desolate, you can count 1290 days, Messiah steps foot on the Mt of Olives. For the next 45 days... judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46)

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Matthew Chapter 25

David Guzik commentary on Matthew 25, in which Jesus teaches in different parables and the judgment of the nations before the throne of God.

enduringword.com

The tribulation is not just that seven years. The tribulation is not defined as a period of time anywhere. And the millennium is a figurative time, it is in Heaven with God, and will be a long and joyful time, but it won't even begin to compare to eternity.

Boy am I glad I actually read the whole bible and the teachers/pastors God has given me are diligent in studying the whole bible and encourage us to do likewise.
You really should get better teachers. Yours are cheating you out of awesome things.
these things are quite literal.

Most certainly, we will not know the truth of any of this until He comes again.

He's given us enough to make sure we are diligent in getting ready.
what we can't know, we don't need to know.

But as is pointed out in the pre-trib site you referenced earlier, we MUST evangelize the lost and keep ourselves ready for His return.

exactly!

Jesus and the Father are one.

Yep. John 10:31.
the Father however is not the Son, nor is the Son the Father.
YHVH... the God of Abraham, Issac and Israel is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

They will not have two brides.

Pity you've chosen to ignore the Bible passages i gave you.
feel free to read the entire Bible for yourself, contextually.
4 chapters a day, you can read the whole bible in just under 10 months.
I read anywhere from 1 to 3 chapters a day, depending on the book's content. I'm presently in Esther. Since November 2020, I've been reading each book 6 times, so I could get a better understanding of the contents.
I started in Revelation and have been going through to Esther. I'll start my 6th time Monday morning.

As you said, the Church is a combination of the Jews and the Gentiles (who believe in Jesus).

yep.

The Church is an outgrowth of the tree that is Israel, and so is the same "bride", but it does not "replace' Israel; it is Israel.

Not an outgrowth, it's an ingrafting. Romans 11,

Rom 11:24 WEB For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

We who are Gentiles... we are engrafted, from a wild olive tree, into the Father’s olive.

Most definitely NOT an outgrowth!
We come from a totally different olive tree!

I didn't realize I had not answered a question. Sorry about that.

Please go back to the post I asked them in.

Post in thread 'Daniel's 70 weeks and the Messiah' https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/daniels-70-weeks-and-the-messiah.1191/post-55288

 

[Rockson]

I do, regularly. The pastors of all the churches I've ever attended, reading the bible for contextuality is an imperative.
We call it 20-20.
20 verses before and 20 verses after. We call it having 20-20 vision.

A good approach to studying the scriptures.

 

[SteveB]

A good approach to studying the scriptures.

Yeah, I totally agree!
thinking about some of various things I'm reading here on the forum this evening, I'm thinking that I need to send the teachers I'm acquainted with a thank you note for their diligence in doing so!
Apparently this has saved me a lot of bad thinking

 

[TomL]

I'm thinking that it's because you're the only one who actually believes it.
I mentioned it to my pastor this morning at men's breakfast and he immediately said you were wrong.
So, yeah... no idea where you get the idea that the world will be destroyed at the second coming.
It's clearly not what Peter is saying.

2 Peter 3:4–13 (ESV) — 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

One need not take it literally but it is the time of the new heaven and earth

 

[Rockson]

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

One need not take it literally but it is the time of the new heaven and earth

In ;an unusual sort of way I think this is one of the most positive passages in the Bible.


Now I know we're to occupy here until Jesus comes and we're to plan out our natural life as well as spiritual......(with God's leading.......we've got families to raise and everything else but sometimes the cares of this world weigh upon one making one fretful.....at times we need to remember STOP WORRYING about every little detail of everything and know a new world and Kingdom of Righteousness will be born lasting forever.

Or to put it another way imagine having a friend who every time you left them they said, "Remember now, it's all going to burn!" He'd probably be thought of as a Gloomy Gus . It is however something God has exhorted us to remember and keep in mind of.

 

[TomL]

In ;an unusual sort of way I think this is one of the most positive passages in the Bible.



Now I know we're to occupy here until Jesus comes and we're to plan out our natural life as well as spiritual......(with God's leading.......we've got families to raise and everything else but sometimes the cares of this world weigh upon one making one fretful.....at times we need to remember STOP WORRYING about every little detail of everything and know a new world and Kingdom of Righteousness will be born lasting forever.

Or to put it another way imagine having a friend who every time you left them they said, "Remember now, it's all going to burn!" He'd probably be thought of as a Gloomy Gus . It is however something God has exhorted us to remember and keep in mind of.

Yes, the thought of a new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells is a positive thought

 

[Rockson]

Yes, the thought of a new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells is a positive thought

Hahha....Yeah.....I better make sure I clarify something too....just saying all is going to burn isn't a positive thought....one just saying such would be a Gloomy Gus. My first paragraph had the words too about the New World and the New Kingdom of Righteousness yet to come. ;That's the thing we look forward to.

 

[TomL]

Hahha....Yeah.....I better make sure I clarify something too....just saying all is going to burn isn't a positive thought....one just saying such would be a Gloomy Gus. My first paragraph had the words too about the New World and the New Kingdom of Righteousness yet to come. ;That's the thing we look forward to.

The old must be dissolved so the new may come

 

[SteveB]

2 Peter 3:4–13 (ESV) — 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming?

except neither me nor my pastor said that.
you quoted
2Pe 3:10 WEB But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat; and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

stating that immediately following the return of Jesus, the Heavens and the earth will be destroyed.

Not even Revelation 20's description of following the tribulation period and the release of the devil from his prison is an immediate destruction of earth.

Rev 20:7-11 WEB 7 And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up over the width of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. Fire came down out of heaven from God and devoured them. 10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 I saw a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.

For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

One need not take it literally but it is the time of the new heaven and earth

In Revelation 21, after the great white throne judgment, absolutely!
Not before...

Rev 21:1 WEB I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more.

 

[TomL]

except neither me nor my pastor said that.
you quoted
2Pe 3:10 WEB But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat; and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

stating that immediately following the return of Jesus, the Heavens and the earth will be destroyed.

Not even Revelation 20's description of following the tribulation period and the release of the devil from his prison is an immediate destruction of earth.

Rev 20:7-11 WEB 7 And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up over the width of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. Fire came down out of heaven from God and devoured them. 10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 I saw a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.


In Revelation 21, after the great white throne judgment, absolutely!
Not before...

Rev 21:1 WEB I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more.

I quoted

2 Peter 3:3–13 (NASB 2020) — 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?

The topic under discussionis the coming of the lord

For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

this day is the day of the lord

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

it is clear on this day the heavens and earth are consumed by fire

now show how the text 2Pe does not show the destruction of the heaven and earth at Christ's coming